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Comments on news posted 2014-07-25 13:35:48: Several years back Verizon implemented what they call "network optimization" for their 3G network, though their LTE network wasn't impacted. ..

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ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

5 recommendations

ropeguru

Premium Member

Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

If you pay us more money for a shared plan that allows more than 5GB, we will not throttle you. Again, just a plain money grab!!

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

4 recommendations

IPPlanMan

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

Yup. AT&T pulled this same crap for its Unlimited Plans by initially throttling the top 5% of data users progressively until the the throttling level actually dropped below the actual tiered data plans being offered instead. However, if you were willing to pay more, you could get more "unthrottled" data before you hit a cap. After an uproar, it changed to 3GB for 3G devices and 5GB for 4G devices before "throttling".

Congestion my @$$.
Big Dawg 23
join:2002-03-27
Northfield, MN

Big Dawg 23

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

AT&T never throttled me and I repeated did 6-10GBs a month.

At the end the day If you don't like what AT&T and Verizon does to make money switch to another carrier. It's great to that people think companies like VZW, AT&T and Apple are all "money grabbing". Last I checked there for profit companies. Clearly people will pay for their services. This is Supply and Demand 101.

No one forces people to stay with a company they don't like.
Paul in WA
join:2010-09-11
Centralia, WA

Paul in WA

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

said by Big Dawg 23:

No one forces people to stay with a company they don't like.

Amen. After reading this I am even happier that I gave up my expensive ($80 with all the fees and taxes) unlimited Verizon account for T-Mobile/WalMart's $30 (Total!) 100 min talk, unlimited text and 5 GB of 4G data pre-paid plan. VoIP gets me around the limited talk minutes, I'm not much of a traveler and T-Mobile has good coverage around the SF Bay area - so I smile every month at the $50 I am saving.
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned) to ropeguru

Member

to ropeguru
said by ropeguru:

If you pay us more money for a shared plan that allows more than 5GB, we will not throttle you. Again, just a plain money grab!!

WRONG. If it was a money grab they would just kill it off. did you even READ the article? Nope. Why? I can tell by your response.

In order to see reduced speeds, you have to be a customer that meets all of the criteria below (again, ALL of the criteria):

Top 5% of data users

Enrolled on an unlimited data plan or feature

Have fulfilled their minimum contract term

Are attempting to use data on a cell site that is experiencing high demand


And even then the "thottling" isn't permanent.
Brim77
join:2012-03-16
Lansing, MI

Brim77

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

Wireless carriers CANNOT kill off UNLIMITED data plans because they WILL lose in court. Remember this guy?

»www.huffingtonpost.com/2 ··· 573.html

Good God reading your incredibly biased posts makes me want to blow my brains out. Although an easier suicide method might be to climb your massive ego and jump down to your IQ level.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

They can kill off Unlimited Data whenever they want... but they won't do it that way.

They're just going to keep calling it Unlimited while they progressively throttle the top 5% to lower and lower usage thresholds and claim tower congestion on some arbitrary basis...

Don't worry... This all makes for good business in the echo chamber over there.

beck
MVM
join:2002-01-29
On The Road

beck to 78036364

MVM

to 78036364
Wow. And do you trust the government too?
bcltoys
join:2008-07-21

bcltoys to 78036364

Member

to 78036364
One criteria will be met every time they will say the tower you are on is loaded and throttle us even if your the only person on that tower. You know and so does everybody else.......

ropeguru
Premium Member
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA

ropeguru to 78036364

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to 78036364
said by 78036364:

did you even READ the article? Nope

How do you know what I did or did not read? Do you have access to all my computers to know what I do on them? No? Then quit telling me what I did or did not read!

I did read the article and this was MY opinion from the article and past experience.

So you can go away now!!
Expand your moderator at work
m3nphls
join:2012-10-02
Brooklyn, NY

m3nphls to ropeguru

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to ropeguru
I don't see what the problem is. AT&T does throttle you no matter what tower you are connected to. VZW will throttle you if you hit 4.7GB and you are in a congested tower but your speed goes back to normal if tower is not congested.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

As happened initially with AT&T, watch the top 5% of users' data usage become progressively lower.... You'll see.
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned)

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

said by IPPlanMan:

As happened initially with AT&T, watch the top 5% of users' data usage become progressively lower.... You'll see.

math doesn't work that way. First even if you're in the top 5% you only get throttled if that tower sector is congested. Once the congestion goes away or you move to an uncongested tower you are no longer throttled. Why is this so hard to understand?

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

1 edit

1 recommendation

IPPlanMan

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

There's always a top 5% and it will always drop.

What's the threshold level for "congestion"? Whatever and wherever Verizon wants it to be. I'm sure they'll tell us.
tabernak4
join:2013-08-10

tabernak4

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

Interesting point, I agree with Verizon's plan, but they also need to adequately define congestion. If it's something like hitting 90% capacity, then it sounds great to me.

The heaviest users are always subsidized by the lighter users so they should be impacted first. If you are truly one of a few users on a tower as many like to claim, then this shouldn't impact them so long as Verizon doesn't abuse the definition of congestion.
biochemistry
Premium Member
join:2003-05-09
92361

2 recommendations

biochemistry

Premium Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

The heaviest users are not subsidized by the lightest users. Verizon is turning a profit on all users.
tabernak4
join:2013-08-10

tabernak4

Member

Re: Unlimited get throttled around 5GB, but...

Have any proof? Any consumer broadband I'm aware of exists at those prices because of their ability to oversubscribe users. This is even more true of wireless at the moment. That's why business connections cost so much more so they can meet their Service Level Agreements. Even if they are profiting on all users, the heaviest users would still be subsidized by the lightest users so the can attain the overall profit margins they are shooting for.
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

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Let's hope the consumer grows a pair and leaves Verizon for good. Then maybe the business model will evolve. It's time for Tmobile to make a play for Verizon customers this time. Unlimited data customers are and important demographic because they pay their bills in boom and bust times..

Perhaps customers could get a txt alert that a particular cell tower is experiencing high congestion (or a tower status update) and make appropriate changes to avoid throttling instead of pitting bucket users against unlimited users.
videomatic3
join:2003-12-12
Pleasanton, CA
ARRIS S33

1 edit

videomatic3

Member

hmm

i thought they already did this
also everyone should use more data to make the top 5% of users more than 4.7gb
still better to face slower speeds. on a congested tower you will have slow speeds reguardless if your being "optimized" or not
personally me being on an unlimited data plan i think i am ok with this. im at 16 gigs 10 days into my billing cycle, most of it is streaming stuff that doesnt really require a lot of bandwidth per second, just lots of data over time
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72

Member

Re: hmm

They already did this and now extend to LTE because it is loaded. Not sure why this is some internet news... This is COMMON SENSE traffic management.

And this article is blown WAY out of proportion. It clearly says that one would be optimized only if a sector gets congested, and it further goes on to talk about video optimization, which by the TOC could theoretically mean if one is sitting on video stream all day, it gets video optimized even if on a non-congested sector which makes sense. That way adaptively they don't feel slighted and provide a consistent experience. Really when we are talking about "big data" users we are talking about video. The rest is relative noise. Even audio is easily handled.

I don't see anything that is tyrannical in the FAQ or explanation at all, compared to AT&T hard caps this is a dream. And if I were managing the network that is how I would do it too.

In fact, Verizon could have simply said, no more unlimited when they are out of contract, but they didn't. Give them some credit for doing this intelligently.

Caveat - I think Verizon is expensive, but having equipment from all 4 vendors in my house, I can say without a doubt Verizon and TMO does the best network management. TMO is the fastest by far, only issue is WHEN I can get a good 4G signal. Verizon just blankets the NE....

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

battleop

Member

Re: hmm

"It clearly says that one would be optimized only if a sector gets congested,"

If that's the case then why would your billing cycle have anything to do with it? Perhaps it's for the remainder of the billing cycle for that sector? If I hit my allotment on that sector but go across town and connect to an uncongested site will the throttling follow me?
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned)

Member

Re: hmm

said by battleop:

"It clearly says that one would be optimized only if a sector gets congested,"

If that's the case then why would your billing cycle have anything to do with it? Perhaps it's for the remainder of the billing cycle for that sector? If I hit my allotment on that sector but go across town and connect to an uncongested site will the throttling follow me?

If you READ it's CLEARLY states you're only optimized while that tower sector is congested.

Jim Kirk
Premium Member
join:2005-12-09
49985

Jim Kirk to elefante72

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to elefante72
Only makes sense if they are also throttling users who don't have unlimited and are going over 4.7GB / month.

MovieLover76
join:2009-09-11
Cherry Hill, NJ

MovieLover76

Member

Re: hmm

What happens now, is that unlimited users who use more than 4.7gb are effectively deprioritized, higher paying customer's get higher priority. Like a MetroPCS (mvno) customer on T-mobile.
Really it's always been like that on all carriers.
sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH

sonicmerlin to elefante72

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to elefante72
said by elefante72:

In fact, Verizon could have simply said, no more unlimited when they are out of contract, but they didn't. Give them some credit for doing this intelligently.

This may shock you but verizon doesn't do that out of the goodness of their heart. If they just up and cancelled the data plans of 22% of their customers, what do you think the massive uptick in churn would do to their revenue?

delusion ftl
@50.168.216.x

delusion ftl to elefante72

Anon

to elefante72
It may not be congested in your small-ish town, but in metro areas Verizon's LTE network (at least on 700) is always under full strain now.

I think "unlimited" users holding out that brag about pushing 10+GB a month through their phone will find the new policy quite invasive.

I agree that this is not "tyrannical" per se, but where is "Mr Guy" who posts 10 times a week about how Verizon is not allowed by the government to throttle LTE connections?

bbeesley
join:2003-08-07
Richardson, TX

bbeesley

Member

I see their point

whether this is an appropriate method to handle network congestion is something I won't take a side on but do I see the distinction they are trying to make

if they throttled your connection, they would be limiting it down to some fixed rate

in this instance, they are simply not making your packets a priority. The end result will be a lower performance in terms of throughput, but not all the time. Only when the two conditions are met and then only when you are transferring data and someone gets ahead of you in the queue.

buzz_4_20
join:2003-09-20
Dover, NH

1 recommendation

buzz_4_20

Member

Holy OVERSELLING Batman

Selling people a LTE connection and users that are near 5 gigs are a problem worth dealing with.

That is some seriously oversold bandwidth.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

1 recommendation

elefante72

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Re: Holy OVERSELLING Batman

Wrong. Take two people:

Joe - He watches movies every night from 3-5 AM on the night shift and does 90 GB per month.

Sally - Watches youtube clips on her train ride home at 5:30PM every day and uses 1 GB in the month.

Which one do you think is impacting the network more? SALLY.

Its not about bits, its about WHEN you use the bits. The ENTIRE fallacy of usage caps in action...

And not some theory, look at Canada for TPIA (LEC in US). Their ENTIRE bill for the month is based upon the MAXIMUM usage at any point in the month. THATS IT (UBB - Usage based billing). In fact many allow zero caps on upload and no caps in the morning hours, because it DOESN'T MATTER to the operator--because the network is sized for maximum.

buzz_4_20
join:2003-09-20
Dover, NH

buzz_4_20

Member

Re: Holy OVERSELLING Batman

So way push wholesale caps when it's not the true root of the problem?
Why not have daytime/nighttime bits then?

•••

battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000

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Shouldn't Joe get back to work?

ArrayList
DevOps
Premium Member
join:2005-03-19
Mullica Hill, NJ

ArrayList

Premium Member

Re: Holy OVERSELLING Batman

I think you missed the part where that was his job.
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned) to elefante72

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to elefante72
said by elefante72:

Wrong. Take two people:

Joe - He watches movies every night from 3-5 AM on the night shift and does 90 GB per month.

Sally - Watches youtube clips on her train ride home at 5:30PM every day and uses 1 GB in the month.

and under these scenarios NEITHER would be throttled but all the complainers don't understand this.
78036364

78036364 (banned) to buzz_4_20

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to buzz_4_20
said by buzz_4_20:

Selling people a LTE connection and users that are near 5 gigs are a problem worth dealing with.

That is some seriously oversold bandwidth.

If people would clear about how mobile data works it's not shocking at all.

Simple math. Verizon 10 MHz downlink on 700 MHz spectrum. That means a TOTAL of 75 Mbps per tower sector. Also total users are limited to 400 simultaneous. Not an issue for people just accessing a webpage since that takes seconds or less. It IS an issue for people streaming video since that is a constant connection.

Do the math if you have 400 people trying to stream that limits the speed to 192 kbps each. If one expects a carrier to have the ability for all it's users to stream 5 Mbps they would need over 250 MHz just for downlink. No one has that and no one ever will.
sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH

sonicmerlin

Member

Re: Holy OVERSELLING Batman

said by 78036364:

said by buzz_4_20:

Selling people a LTE connection and users that are near 5 gigs are a problem worth dealing with.

That is some seriously oversold bandwidth.

If people would clear about how mobile data works it's not shocking at all.

Simple math. Verizon 10 MHz downlink on 700 MHz spectrum. That means a TOTAL of 75 Mbps per tower sector. Also total users are limited to 400 simultaneous. Not an issue for people just accessing a webpage since that takes seconds or less. It IS an issue for people streaming video since that is a constant connection.

Do the math if you have 400 people trying to stream that limits the speed to 192 kbps each. If one expects a carrier to have the ability for all it's users to stream 5 Mbps they would need over 250 MHz just for downlink. No one has that and no one ever will.

Do you just copy and paste the same post evacuated of all rationality and intelligence in every thread?

In what universe would everyone on a tower ever simultaneously use data and/or stream at 5mbps? If people did that on cable ISPs the nodes would buckle under load, but that never happens.

And do you realize how much spectrum verizon is just sitting on or doing very little with? Besides their slow rollout of XLTE, they're waiting until 2018 to convert 3G spectrum to 4G and shut down their 2G network. The capacity adds will be huge, not to mention whatever spectrum they're currently squatting on. Then there will be the 10x increase in capacity thanks to category 8 LTE.

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

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A very proper Batman reference indeed...

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA

aaronwt

Premium Member

F***!

F***!

I guess this is the beginning of the end for my unlimited data?

F***!

My monthly cost would almost double if I switched from unlimited to one of their current plans.

••••••••
NLiveris
join:2001-11-25
Chicago, IL

NLiveris

Member

Shitty

Funny how the "scarcity" of bandwidth and spectrum instantly disappear when we pay companies like VZ more money.

I'm still on VZ unlimited using a total lag infested piece of horsecrap Droid Razr Maxx from 2012. I usually consume under 2GB each month but still dislike the idea of that arbitrary limit. For me it seems unfathomable that browsing web sites or streaming a couple hours of radio every day could possibly result in a even more expensive bill. Monitoring your data usage seems so damn silly. Who has time for all that shit? Remember when Hotmail had a 2MB limit on the capacity of their inbox? That wasn't too many years ago. And that's what the 2GB limit for LTE personally feels like to me.

I think it's so stupid that downloading 4.7 GB a month on a phone is considered by Verizon to be a problem.

Throttling, locking, blocking competing apps, insane SMS prices, toll bridge networks, hidden monthly charges, forced bloatware that always runs, updates that always make your phone slower etc, etc. Verizon is evil like Mr. Burns. And why is Verizon's logo on the front of my phone? It makes no sense to me. Imagine if Comcast forced you to put their logo on the front panel of your computer's case?

•••••••

buddahbless
join:2005-03-21
Premium

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buddahbless

Member

the main point that was overlooked...

Knowing how Verizon and ATT play the game when I read this part of there statement...

" your speed is reduced only when you are connected to a cell site experiencing high demand. Once you are no longer connected to a site experiencing high demand, your speed will return to normal. This could mean a matter of seconds or hours, depending on your location and time of day."

I walked away with this in my mind....

An upper management memo to customer service and tech support staff...
" EVERY LTE site is under constant demand 24/7 according to us, so let the puppets believe what they want, when ANYONE calls in to complain about there speeds after we have throttled them this is the story that we are going to script to tell EVERY customer, YOUR TOWER IS JUST UNDER DEMAND, sorry for the inconvenience, thank you for calling verizon wireless, Goodbye. "

why60loss
Premium Member
join:2012-09-20

why60loss

Premium Member

Looks like Verizon is breaking FCC rules again

They have been doing this for some time if you used a lot. It would sometimes follow you into the next billing cycle as well.

Verizon said they weren't throttling, yea right and now they have just made the intent public.

If the FCC had a back bone they would throw the book at them on the 700mhz C-block rules.

••••
patt2k
join:2009-01-16

patt2k

Member

heh

not saying I am liking this I don't have unlt but!

I like that it will stop the abuse .. people showing off using 200-500GB using their phones.

tshirt
Premium Member
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA

tshirt

Premium Member

One wonders how Verizon would feel if customers....

Click for full size
from akamia 2014
.... stopped whining and recognized the cause of increasing prices.
usage increasing at 15% per quarter.
could your national network keep up on a 2010 budget?

••••••••••••

bkoeni1
The Ends Of Invention
Premium Member
join:2000-12-13
Fort Worth, TX
TP-Link Archer C7

bkoeni1

Premium Member

Leading Me To The Wrong Conclusion ...

Doing this in the manner described would lead me to the conclusion that their network was unreliable. Sometimes I would have a really great experience and other times a really bad experience. I would naturally blame it all on the Verizon network and complain to my friends and acquaintances about how bad Version service is. Version should re-think their strategy here.
ke4pym
Premium Member
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC

1 recommendation

ke4pym

Premium Member

Hah, no biggie

The cell sites I use now are lucky to get 2Mbps/sec at any given time. Doubt i would notice.

And VZW has a couple of unlimited plans for those on old school minute plans. I wonder if it impacts the one used for corporate email/vpn? Or both? Or what.
athornfam2
join:2013-09-25
York, PA

athornfam2

Member

Sometimes I wonder

I have 3 unlmited everything plans. 2 are personal and one is business. I don't use too much data on my personal plan anymore since I have the business plan. Does anybody know if this will effect federal account users?

Murphdog856
join:2002-01-04
Cherry Hill, NJ

Murphdog856

Member

Re: Sometimes I wonder

We are a municipal law enforcement customer and we heard through friends that are FED and State LE customers that throttling was coming. They all got notified if they were "heavy users". Since VZW missed us by accident we then got a visit from our VZW rep to deliver this fine news after we called them to inquire about the rumor.

VZW's basic response was to buy a $150.00 a month plan per line (30GB) and aggregate them(70+ lines). The info at the time was that we would be throttled to 200 kbps after 5GB GB. They never mentioned about the sector congestion. They were more amazed how a police car could use more than 5GB in a month. Surely someone must be violating the TOS streaming Netflix. Once they saw that all the internet use was legitimate data such as VPN (Non LE data is blocked like Netflix) they just scratched their heads. The rep of course said that they need the bandwidth for VOLTE which I pointed out that was a crock of shit and this was a money grab.

We are hoping some off the larger FED customers can pressure VZW into keeping unlimited but I am not holding my breath.
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned)

Member

Much ado about nohting.

Of course I see the overreactors whining as per usual. These are the ones that read a title and actually do not read the details. And for the one's saying this is a money grab. They don't collect overage fees for these people being throttled for one and two they could simply have killed off unlimited data( like I wish they would ), but they chose not to.

chemialaster
@24.171.19.x

chemialaster

Anon

Re: Much ado about nohting.

This is a punitive measure designed to squeeze people off of grandfathered plans onto metered plans. And yes, the metered plans are more profitable. If they weren't, the industry would not have shifted in that direction.

Even assuming the above weren't true, the aggressive shaping to be used against customers who use as little as 5GB per month is a way for Verizon to sidestep the ever-growing need to invest in their infrastructure and increase their capacity... which costs money to do, meaning Verizon is profiting from throttling there too.

So, really, this *is* a money grab, regardless of the angle from which you see it.

Smith6612
MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
·Charter
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Smith6612

MVM

Define high demand...

While I'm happy that Verizon isn't going down the throttling route other carriers like AT&T do once you hit 5GB, I do have a question concerning the definition of "high demand."

What does High Demand mean? A tower that has an unusual number of phones connected to it but sitting idle (ex: massive concerts or sporting events)? A bunch of phones fighting for airtime on the spectrum? A single person with unlimited data and another single person with metered data both trying to pull down data at the full data rate?

••••••••
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned)

Member

irony or hypocrisy?

all these people getting upset have no qualms about MVNOs like StraightTalk advertising unlimited data yet clearly throttling after 2.5 GB regardless of whether or not a tower sector is congested. why the difference in outrage?

IPPlanMan
Holy Cable Modem Batman
join:2000-09-20
Washington, DC

IPPlanMan

Member

Re: irony or hypocrisy?

Because the Verizon Unlimited Data plan was sold without any kind of throttling at the outset, and in order to keep it, you had to pay full retail for a device.

The MVNO's made no such promises, and they clearly state that Unlimited data will be throttled after 2.5GB.

So, whatever sits right with you I guess.
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned)

Member

Re: irony or hypocrisy?

said by IPPlanMan:

Because the Verizon Unlimited Data plan was sold without any kind of throttling at the outset, and in order to keep it, you had to pay full retail for a device.

The MVNO's made no such promises, and they clearly state that Unlimited data will be throttled after 2.5GB.

So, whatever sits right with you I guess.

You do realize at StraightTalk you pay full price for the device. and no it was NOT clearly stated you get throttled after 2.5 GB only after it was reported here and other places did ST fess up.

Also you do realize when you're not under contract a company is allowed to change the TOS. If one doesn't like the terms they should find another company to do business with. I actually READ the terms.

Once again this will affect so few people it's not worth getting bothered about. Honestly I'm pissed they didn't kill unlimited data altogether.

anonomeX
@71.207.157.x

anonomeX

Anon

So what Verizon is saying

is that they don't know what the word "throttle" means? (Nothing about "throttle" implies that it's permanent. In fact, in practice a throttle is nearly always applied temporarily and/or variably.)

Verizon... making things up as they go along... as always.
decifal7
join:2007-03-10
Bon Aqua, TN

decifal7

Member

Ha!

hahahaha, told you!

jcotterman
join:2014-07-25
Clearwater Beach, FL

jcotterman

Member

Weak link

Isn't it also safe to say that these "congested" cell towers are also a weak link and, thus, should be upgraded? But I guess thats just a stupid consumer's point of view.

"Sorry, boys and girls. You can't cross the bridge in your truck because too many people are already on the bridge with trucks. Go around and take another route. Yeah, we could have improved the joists in the platform but then we couldn't complain and lobby for a tool booth to pay for the upgrades that we should have had in place from the beginning."
Brim77
join:2012-03-16
Lansing, MI

Brim77

Member

If you have unlimited data, read this.

It might make you $850 richer, at Verizon's expense!

»www.huffingtonpost.com/2 ··· 573.html

Also here are some easy tips for taking them to court.

»techcrunch.com/2012/02/2 ··· lly-win/
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