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Comments on news posted 2014-07-30 14:24:07: Mobeen Khan, AT&T's executive director of M2M product management, says the company's plan to shut down their 2G network by the end of 2016 remains on schedule. AT&T will be refarming that spectrum for eventual use on their 3G and 4G networks. ..

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Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

Has to happen eventually

One cannot just continue to cling to old technology just because a few may still use it. After all if we did that gas stations would still have been selling leaded gas in the 1990s for the handful of people clinging to cars that could not run unleaded. it will not be an easy pill to swallow for embedded users but its something that is going to happen. Technology does move on.

telcodad
MVM
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ

telcodad

MVM

One example of an M2M issue

"Cell phone users are easier to force-upgrade than M2M (machine to machine, or non-phone devices with embedded cellular chipsets) users."

One example of the M2M issue, 2G cellular backup systems:

What Does the End of 2G Mean for Your Security System
By Jeff Bates, Vector Security - April 1, 2014
»www.vectorsecurity.com/b ··· y-System

Zenit_IIfx
The system is the solution
Premium Member
join:2012-05-07
Purcellville, VA
·Comcast XFINITY

Zenit_IIfx

Premium Member

T-Mo

T-Mobile plans to keep a small chunk of their PCS spectrum for 2G even in areas where HSDPA & LTE have been deployed. Its about 15% of the PCS spectrum will be used for 2G.

Good reasons for this - older devices, M2M systems, redundant final backup for failure of higher-level service.

Friends I have on AT&T are complaining big time about how their 3G network is going to shit in this area as they deploy more and more LTE. 100kbps or less is the norm now, AT&T's solution is to buy a new phone but that is not an option for everyone.

T-Mobiles 3G network delivers consistent speeds. And soon it will be overbuilt with a new LTE network over all the existing EDGE.

The next decade is looking good for competition in wireless, so long as Sprint stays away from T.

RadioDoc

join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL

-1 recommendation

RadioDoc to Kearnstd

to Kearnstd

Re: Has to happen eventually

These are mostly contract deals with the companies whose equipment use the network (see: OnStar and the protracted analog and then TDMA shutdown several years ago) so it is hardly a couple of grannies clinging to their 2004 phone here...

Imathrowaway
@198.147.225.x

Imathrowaway to Kearnstd

Anon

to Kearnstd
I'm willing to bet money you wouldn't say that if an ISP announced they'd be shutting down their IP network.

Ethernet, TCP, and UDP/IP are all quite older then GSM.

RadioDoc

join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL

RadioDoc to Zenit_IIfx

to Zenit_IIfx

Re: T-Mo

LOL...they have to keep some of it up to imprison all the people who go past their monthly "unlimited" data allowance.

toby
Troy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13
Seattle, WA

toby to telcodad

Member

to telcodad

Re: One example of an M2M issue

I was curious about this for my alarm system, so I looked it up.

I use a Teleguard TG-4 with our alarm company.
»www.telguard.com/Product ··· TG4.aspx

3G cellular radio.
- GSM 850/1900MHz.
- UMTS WCDMA FDD 850/1900MHz

So I just hope I'm connected to the 3G signal now, for me it's connected to both cell and landline for backup.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

1 recommendation

itguy05 to RadioDoc

Member

to RadioDoc

Re: T-Mo

said by RadioDoc:

LOL...they have to keep some of it up to imprison all the people who go past their monthly "unlimited" data allowance.

Nope. They don't drop you to EDGE. They throttle your HSPA+ or LTE to 200k. It's actually usable.

Zenit_IIfx
The system is the solution
Premium Member
join:2012-05-07
Purcellville, VA

Zenit_IIfx

Premium Member

Exactly. I have not gone over my 1GB limit in a while but it never knocked me off of 3G. Just throttled down to 200k which is perfectly usable for email, navigation, weather, iMessage.
DnEtDe6c
join:2007-02-02
Athens, GA

DnEtDe6c to Kearnstd

Member

to Kearnstd

Re: Has to happen eventually

said by Kearnstd:

One cannot just continue to cling to old technology just because a few may still use it. After all if we did that gas stations would still have been selling leaded gas in the 1990s for the handful of people clinging to cars that could not run unleaded.

You've got your analogy backward. Old cars can (and do) run on unleaded. They ran more efficiently on leaded, but it doesn't ruin them to use unleaded. Plus you can achieve a similar boost on old cars via a fuel additive. It's newer cars that would get ruined by using (now unavailable) leaded gas.
jdbob
Premium Member
join:2009-07-04
John Day, OR

jdbob

Premium Member

Cars

Ford's MyFord mobile system on the Focus Electric, C-Max Energi, and possible the Fusion Energi use AT&T's 2G data. No word from Ford on what they intend to do about this. Maybe another "we're sorry" check.

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

Cabal to Kearnstd

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to Kearnstd

Re: Has to happen eventually

The sad thing is that Nissan is still selling LEAF cars with 2G-only connectivity *today*.

»www.nissanusa.com/innova ··· cle.html
quote:
*CARWINGS® requires compatible 2G GSM/GPRS cellular network provided by AT&T. 2G cellular network not available in all areas and/or available at all times. Cellular technology is evolving, and changes to cellular networks provided by independent companies are not within Nissan's control. AT&T has announced that on December 31, 2016, AT&T will terminate 2G network availability. Like other devices that rely on 2G network coverage, once the 2G network is terminated, CARWINGS will not function unless equipment replacements, upgrades, or alternative 2G network coverage are available at that time, which Nissan cannot guarantee. Nissan not responsible for associated costs that may be required for continued CARWINGS operation due to cellular network termination (including equipment upgrades, if available, or roaming charges on alternative networks).

Yucca Servic
join:2012-11-27
Rio Rancho, NM

Yucca Servic

Member

Rural access

There goes our rural cell phone service!
ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL

ISurfTooMuch

Member

Does AT&T still have EDGE-only areas? Wouldn't surprise me if they did.

koolman2
Premium Member
join:2002-10-01
Anchorage, AK

koolman2

Premium Member

There's a few of them around. It sounds like they plan on completing their upgrade of all service areas to 3G and drop 2G altogether. Maybe those last few areas will be getting 3G installed in the next year or two before the turndown?

ilikeme
Premium Member
join:2002-08-27
Stafford, TX

ilikeme to RadioDoc

Premium Member

to RadioDoc

Re: Has to happen eventually

Yea, 2G now is mostly car telematics systems, burgular/fire alarm systems, and people who have not upgraded their basic model phone in about the past 5 years.

Our alarm company, Smith Thompson, upgraded our system to HSPA a few months ago. It also uses our U-Verse landline as a second path.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to jdbob

Premium Member

to jdbob

Re: Cars

That's pretty pathetic. Hopefully they have an upgrade plan.
BiggA

BiggA to ISurfTooMuch

Premium Member

to ISurfTooMuch

Re: Rural access

The shutdown of 2G in urban and suburban areas to reclaim spectrum for B5/B2 LTE is not mutually exclusive with continuing to operate GSM/EDGE in the middle of bum**** where they don't have Faux G or Four G to need the spectrum anyways.
BiggA

BiggA to koolman2

Premium Member

to koolman2
I just looked, and there are literally a handful of EDGE-only towers left in the country on AT&T, and they are only in a couple of states. I didn't realize that they had come so far in the last couple of years...
Mdg
Premium Member
join:2009-01-10
Allentown, PA

Mdg to BiggA

Premium Member

to BiggA
2 years ago I got upset and smashed my AT&T blackberry and exiled myself back to my old edge 2g only one. I used it for almost a year before I ordered a new one. The edge network was full of holes in the middle of the Philly area. I would drop calls in the same spots everyday that we're never a problem with the 3G network. The demise of the 2g network has already happened.

catchingup
@135.23.225.x

catchingup to Imathrowaway

Anon

to Imathrowaway

Re: Has to happen eventually

said by Imathrowaway :

I'm willing to bet money you wouldn't say that if an ISP announced they'd be shutting down their IP network.

Except this is completely irrelevant to what he said. IP networks won't be going.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to Imathrowaway

Premium Member

to Imathrowaway
And they have all kept up as carriers for modern services. The IP network is just a physical and software set of systems to convey data. Show me 2G that can perform like 4G, you can't . however the IP network is totally scalable because it is just a method of moving the data. IP is still here because as long as you can modulate the data stream into something else you can send the IP network over anything. NASA has even linked to Mars probes with an IP network. You cannot compare a transmission technology with a protocol. Ethernet is here but we have shed older methods, I bet you would not defend a coaxial ring network over switched gigabit over cat5e.
Big Dawg 23
join:2002-03-27
Northfield, MN

Big Dawg 23 to ISurfTooMuch

Member

to ISurfTooMuch

Re: Rural access

There's a lot in Wisconsin and Iowa. Slowly it's getting better. I90 just after LaCrosse until the Dells is Edge to no service. Madison is LTE. Many roads that you exit off of 35 in Northwest Iowa gets you edge as well.
betam4x
join:2002-10-12
Nashville, TN

betam4x to Kearnstd

Member

to Kearnstd

Re: Has to happen eventually

The problem is that there are a bunch of M2M devices still in use (by scientists, the government, etc) that AT&T can't simply shut down. Things like weather/temperature sensors, etc. all tend to use older 'cheaper' radios.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to Big Dawg 23

Premium Member

to Big Dawg 23

Re: Rural access

That's roaming, not AT&T EDGE. That won't change until AT&T builds out their own network in that area...
78036364 (banned)
join:2014-05-06
USA

78036364 (banned) to betam4x

Member

to betam4x

Re: Has to happen eventually

said by betam4x:

The problem is that there are a bunch of M2M devices still in use (by scientists, the government, etc) that AT&T can't simply shut down. Things like weather/temperature sensors, etc. all tend to use older 'cheaper' radios.

The problem is at&t announced this 2 years ago and the shut is still 2 1/2 years away. If one can't get their shit together with 5 years heads up, that's their problem.
big_e
join:2011-03-05

big_e to Kearnstd

Member

to Kearnstd
Bad analogy. Tetraethyllead was banned in gasoline because it literally poisons people and the environment! 2G GSM technology doesn't effect anyone's health or the environment. It simply occupies a small slice of spectrum that could be used for AT&T's 4G deployment. And no, shutting down 2G won't raise anyone's data caps or have any kind of noticeable impact on speeds.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

Alarm systems

Many people are going to be stuck replacing cellular transceivers on alarm panels. Or even worse, have to replace the entire panel if the transceiver is proprietary to the panel (such as the DSC Alexor or Ademco Lynx) where the cellular card is embedded in the panel. And since the sensors are proprietary to wireless systems, you could end up replacing the entire alarm system just because a cellular provider shuts down a network.

It can cost upwards of $500 to have an alarm company replace a cellular transceiver (parts and labor), more if the panel needs replacing.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

However AT&T should not just keep something around because people have alarms, They are giving plenty of warning time for pennies to be saved up.

Any time you buy into a technological system that depends on an outside source for something there is the risk of that outside system being closed down to make way for the provider to offer new services.

IowaCowboy
Lost in the Supermarket
Premium Member
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA

IowaCowboy

Premium Member

AT&T needs to realize that there are literally millions of fixed non-mobile devices that rely on their network. I think AT&T is the #1 provider of cellular service to non mobile devices that rely on the cellular network. Even when I first got a CPAP machine, the DME provider attached a radio unit (that communicated over the AT&T network) to monitor compliance.

It's not just alarms that are going to be affected.
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