dslreports logo
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc
view:
topics flat nest 
Comments on news posted 2014-08-29 11:00:02: A TiVo support note first spotted by Dave Zatz is the first to highlight Comcast's looming migration away from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. ..


maartena
Elmo
Premium Member
join:2002-05-10
Orange, CA

maartena

Premium Member

Smart plan

Several years ago, a time warner cable tech told me that an HD channel takes the "equivalent of around 12 to 16 Mbps" on their network. He said "equivalent" because in the end, that's not really how the channels are transported to the end user, but that is how they are compressed in MPEG2.

DirecTV's HD (which is generally considered the best in the market) allocates 7 to 8 Mbps per HD channel in MPEG4 on their satellite transponders, depending on quality (1080i/720p etc).

U-Verse is around 5.5 Mbps per HD channel in MPEG4 and is considered one of the least quality in the market.

So, if cable can do around 7 Mbps per HD channel, I think they are golden. The biggest challenge will be to convert all the old boxes.

norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA

norm

Member

Re: Smart plan

Where are you getting this information? I am genuinely interested as I currently have FiOS but also have available to me Dish, Direct, and Comcast. I get a lot of artifacts on my FiOS picture with fast moving scenes, scenes with a lot of color regardless of motion, and scenes with very little color like credits and bumper cards.
elefante72
join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

elefante72

Member

Re: Smart plan

I would open a ticket and have your signal tested. I see the occasional blue crush (police gumballs), but nothing like you are describing. The picture is adequate and much better than the alternative here (TWC). I have OTA in my office and it is far superior...

On my HDHR HBO (mpeg4) rules around 11Mbps and mpeg2 channels 20+. I think they are going for a 2:1 ratio.

norm
join:2012-10-18
Pittsburgh, PA

norm

Member

Re: Smart plan

Click for full size
said by elefante72:

I would open a ticket and have your signal tested. I see the occasional blue crush (police gumballs), but nothing like you are describing. The picture is adequate and much better than the alternative here (TWC). I have OTA in my office and it is far superior...

On my HDHR HBO (mpeg4) rules around 11Mbps and mpeg2 channels 20+. I think they are going for a 2:1 ratio.

I've had techs come out a few times and it's just... I don't know. They always scratch their heads and don't know what's up. The DVR captures it and can be repeated via recording on other TVs 100% the same. All wiring has been replaced as has my ONT. It happens on multiple boxes. The last solution they tried was to put an anti-static plastic bag over the the internals of the ONT. Tech said he thought it was stupid and wouldn't work but that's what he was told to do. It is stupid and hasn't worked.

Don't mind the fact that I have an outdoor ONT in my basement.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

4 recommendations

existenz to maartena

Member

to maartena
FWIW, Google Fiber is doing MPEG4 at 15M+. Looks better than OTA TV.

journeysquid
join:2014-08-01

journeysquid

Member

Re: Smart plan

said by existenz:

FWIW, Google Fiber is doing MPEG4 at 15M+. Looks better than OTA TV.

That seems unlikely, unless they're getting a source of higher quality than a comparable OTA channel.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

1 edit

1 recommendation

existenz

Member

Re: Smart plan

It's been verified by Google Support and I can also see MPEG4 packets with a sniffer. Others have validated MPEG4/15Mbps+ streams as well. Basically they are not re-compressing any tighter than what is provided by feeds. The 2nd gen GF TV box they are beta testing supposedly supports HDMI 1.4, apparently prepping for 4KTV.

»productforums.google.com ··· zs2dYQVc

edit: As far as appearance, it may be because the video decoder in the GF TV box is higher quality than my TV OTA decoders. Is also possible they are also getting some feeds higher quality than local OTA stations. Could be psychosomatic but most say GF TV is better than OTA, many say the image 'pops'.

dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI

dnoyeB

Member

Re: Smart plan

Its possible of the OTA channel is overcompressed. IIRC e.g. channel 38 is one frequency with one signal that can be divided up into as many channels as the station wishes. However, the more its divided the less bandwidth is left for each channel. (38-1, 38-2, 38-3, etc.)
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Smart plan

All the big providers have higher bitrate fiber feeds, including GF.
98778011 (banned)
join:2014-08-24
Charlotte, NC

98778011 (banned) to existenz

Member

to existenz
it says "most" does not state all.

journeysquid
join:2014-08-01

journeysquid to existenz

Member

to existenz
I wasn't clear, I was referring specifically to the picture quality. I have no doubt they're using MPEG-4.

GoogleSearch
@204.28.140.x

GoogleSearch to journeysquid

Anon

to journeysquid
Seems he's spot on with what he said.. per this google search result

»productforums.google.com ··· mA5y3aEJ
captinkirk
join:2012-12-12
Tucson, AZ

captinkirk to journeysquid

Member

to journeysquid
This is very possible that they would be getting an ASI feed from the stations. An ASI signal can go up to 270 Mbps which is on average 13 times more bandwidth than a traditional OTA signal.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf to existenz

Member

to existenz
But they refuse to let customers use their own equipment like TiVo, which is unforgivable.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Smart plan

GF isn't cable, it's IPTV. TiVo would need to support GF. And GF has really good equipment on it's own, and crazy high bitrates as well. I'd take GF TV if it was available in my area, as long as they had the channels I want.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

Re: Smart plan

Meh, not as good as TiVo, simply put. I'd take GF too, if it supported TiVo and let me use my own router directly.
existenz
join:2014-02-12

existenz

Member

Re: Smart plan

What Tivo features would you miss? GF TV box is not good for slinging video but it does work with Slingbox. They are working on a 2nd Gen TV box with more features and supposedly prepping for 4K TV support. You can also use your own router/switch as long as it supports 802.1q VLAN 2 and 802.1p priority level 2. Or you can attach your own to Google's router in AP mode and supposedly bridge mode coming.

According to leaks, the 2nd Gen TV box supports MoCA 2.0, which can potentially do near a Gbit.

Only thing I'm annoyed by is not being able to use GFiber App outside home network, but that is planned.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

Re: Smart plan

Um between the high cost of the Slingbox and the high cost of the apps to USE the dang thing, it's kinda stupid. TiVo is just better all around.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to Mike Wolf

Premium Member

to Mike Wolf
I'd take GF, even without TiVo, just because they don't re-compress at all. 15mbps ESPN would be amazing!

Since I'm in the Northeast, I'll keep my dream realistic and focus on FIOS with TiVo.

Mike Wolf
join:2009-05-24
Tuckerton, NJ

Mike Wolf

Member

Re: Smart plan

I'd much rather browbeat a provider I'm with until they improve their services.

Jon Geb
Long time member
join:2001-01-09
Howell, MI

Jon Geb to existenz

Member

to existenz
Google fiber has almost unlimited bandwidth, probably 10 times or more than Comcast.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT
·Frontier FiberOp..
Asus RT-AC68

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Smart plan

By Unlimited, you mean WDM-PON with 1.25gbps per sub, limited to 1gbps (about 910mbps realistically) by the gigabit Ethernet on the fiber jack, and for TV limited to about 80mbps realistically by MoCA.

Comcast has over 5gbps per node on 860mhz systems, but it has to handle over 100 customers with internet, TV, phone, security, VOD, etc, and the majority of it is used by linear broadcasts of channels.

TechyDad
Premium Member
join:2001-07-13
USA

1 recommendation

TechyDad to maartena

Premium Member

to maartena
This, of course, leads me to wonder what would happen if Comcast held their own channels to their data caps. At 300GB per month, and 7Mbps per HD channel, you would be able to watch just over 3 hours of TV a day before you'd hit your cap.

Of course, if more than one TV is running at the same time, they count separately. So if you spent an hour and a half watching a movie in one room while the kids watched their programs in another room, that would be 3 hours.

If Comcast did this (which they would never, EVER do), how many people would cancel their cable service? Yet, this is exactly what they are trying to do with Netflix and other Internet video providers.

scaredpoet
join:2001-03-26
Monmouth Junction, NJ

scaredpoet

Member

Re: Smart plan

This, of course, leads me to wonder what would happen if Comcast held their own channels to their data caps. At 300GB per month, and 7Mbps per HD channel, you would be able to watch just over 3 hours of TV a day before you'd hit your cap.

Of course, if more than one TV is running at the same time, they count separately. So if you spent an hour and a half watching a movie in one room while the kids watched their programs in another room, that would be 3 hours.

If Comcast did this (which they would never, EVER do), how many people would cancel their cable service? Yet, this is exactly what they are trying to do with Netflix and other Internet video providers.
While I agree with your point, unfortunately Comcast has a very easy way to weasel out of this argument. The difference between Comcast and Netflix is, Comcast is not using unicast IP transport for its live broadcast channels. It's effectively a multicast stream, and the same bandwidth is going down the pipe regardless or whether 1 TV or 1,000 TVs are viewing the channel in your neighborhood. This is different from Netflix, where there is no coordination, and everything is on demand, and unicast. So there, each stream does consume its own bandwidth.

Of course, therein lies the tools to continue the argument. Comcast DOES treat its on-demand video service differently from Netflix, even though THAT is a more appropriate comparison. And with, Netflix now paying Comcast to interconnect, is it really fair to keep counting their bandwidth use as part of any cap, seeing that Comcast is now getting paid on both ends for it?

Orlando 57
@69.241.126.x

1 recommendation

Orlando 57 to TechyDad

Anon

to TechyDad
Nice try on the bandwidth caps. the only thing wrong with your idea is the HD channel is shared by everyone in the node. It isn't an individual feed just to you. So if you are watching CBS and your neighbor is watching CBS you are watching the same channel and you share that bandwidth.

With Netflix you are the only one watching that stream. If you watch house of cards and your neighbor watches house of cards you both have seperate streams.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA to TechyDad

Premium Member

to TechyDad
That's nonsense. The QAM is broadcast, not unicast like DOCSIS. I don't defend caps, they are horrible, but what you are saying is completely technologically illogical.
Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO

Skippy25 to maartena

Member

to maartena
DirectTv's stream is dynamic and the change it all the time. I am guessing many if not all of them do this as well.

There is a website out there somewhere that is dedicated to showing the bandwidth they are using at any given time. It has been 2 years since I have seen it so I dont recall what it is.

quetwo
That VoIP Guy
Premium Member
join:2004-09-04
East Lansing, MI

quetwo to maartena

Premium Member

to maartena
MPEG2, without compression is 19 MBps. Comcast usually compresses their channels to about 12-16 MBps. This allows 3 - 4 HD channels per QAM EIA on the network (a QAM channels is simply an MPEG data stream).

The biggest issue is a majority of the CATV industry is still MPEG2. STBs sold up to a few years ago were MPEG2 only. There is still a LOT of equipment out there that would become incompatible.
BiggA
Premium Member
join:2005-11-23
Central CT

BiggA

Premium Member

Re: Smart plan

Only a few channels get that kind of bandwidth! Most are tri-muxed to around 12mbps...

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

1 recommendation

mackey to maartena

Premium Member

to maartena
said by maartena:

Several years ago, a time warner cable tech told me that an HD channel takes the "equivalent of around 12 to 16 Mbps" on their network. He said "equivalent" because in the end, that's not really how the channels are transported to the end user, but that is how they are compressed in MPEG2.

Actually, that is exactly how they are transported to the end user. Using QAM256, each 6 MHz wide RF channel is just a 38 mbps data channel with one or more MPEG data streams streamed over it. Using a HDHomeRun Prime you can actually see how this all comes together:

$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 set /tuner1/vchannel 100
$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 get /tuner1/status
ch=qam:447000000 lock=qam256 ss=100 snq=100 seq=100 bps=38813728 pps=276
 
Channel is 38 mbps, QAM256, located at 447MHz

$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 get /tuner1/streaminfo
118: 100 CNN
119: 101 CNN Headline Ne (encrypted)
124: 105 CNN Internation (encrypted)
213: 230 Turner Classic (encrypted)
235: 258 Boomerang (encrypted)
320: 1540 CNN Espanol (encrypted)
tsid=0x0001
 
6 (SD) virtual channels are encoded on this channel

$ hdhomerun_config 192.168.9.199 get /tuner1/debug
tun: ch=qam:447000000 lock=qam256:447000000 ss=100 snq=100 seq=100 dbg=-379/-102
dev: bps=38812224 resync=0 overflow=0
cc:  bps=38812224 resync=0 overflow=0
ts:  bps=38813728 ut=53 te=0 miss=0 crc=0
flt: bps=2543264
net: pps=248 err=0 stop=0
 
After subchannel filtering ("flt") the tuned stream is (VBR) ~2.5 mbps. My video player is reporting it as MPEG-2, 704x480, 29.97 fps, 4:2:0.

/M
moulder3
join:2007-05-21
Boston, MA

6 recommendations

moulder3

Member

Wow

Only 7 years behind DirecTV (and apparently only for one trial market)!!

At this point, why not just wait a year or two and do HEVC (H.265)?

•••••••••••••••••••••••••
amungus
Premium Member
join:2004-11-26
America

1 edit

amungus

Premium Member

what will this do for quality?

1st post mentions DirecTV, which I haven't seen for a long time, but I do wonder what this will do for the quality. Current MPEG2 quality can be quite good, so as long as that's maintained after the shift, that's a good thing.

Bigger question - what will this do for HD Homerun Prime users.
I'm considering one (though we have Cox here), and it concerns me that it'll be obsolete in no time if Cox makes this shift as well. That, and the "uncertainty" of cable card.

EDIT - it looks like the HD Homerun Prime supports h.264 tuning? Can someone verify?

Really, really don't want to rent a box from any provider. We have Dish for TV right now, and I can tell you that their MPEG4 for "HD" is borderline SD. I've seen some upscaled SD look better, in fact.

•••••

telcodad
MVM
join:2011-09-16
Lincroft, NJ

telcodad

MVM

Multichannel News article

An article about this on the Multichannel News site also:

TiVo Braces For Comcast’s MPEG-4 Shift
MSO Transitioning HD Channels To MPEG-4 In Augusta, Ga

By Jeff Baumgartner, Multichannel News - August 29, 2014
»www.multichannel.com/new ··· t/383450
Os
join:2011-01-26
US

Os

Member

With More Space, More Channels?

For those who follow the current selections of HD channels, it's no question that Comcast lineups really don't compare to many other companies, and are missing many HD channels.

With the added space of MPEG-4 saving space for them and likely providing better picture quality, could this also mean some channel expansion in the process?

With 5-6 HD per QAM MPEG-4, Comcast could really improve their lineups, and I hope they will. I figure they'll split the difference between TV and leaving open QAM's for faster internet speeds as well.

••••••••

jgkolt
Premium Member
join:2004-02-21
Avon, OH

jgkolt

Premium Member

tivo

how will this affect tivo users?

•••
Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL

Joe12345678

Member

so will comcast stop giving out MPEG 2 HD boxes and swap them out?

so will Comcast stop giving out MPEG 2 HD boxes and will they start a swap out plan?

In other markets they are still giving out old SD boxes and old HD boxes

Now will they add part time HD channels like? (they don't have SDV other systems with SDV have loads of part time HD)

GAME 1-9 HD

TEAM 1-9 HD

ESPN Goal Line HD, ESPN Buzzer Beater HD, and ESPN Bases Loaded HD

BTN HD over flows? 4 of them

Premier League Extra Time HD 5 feeds

SEC network over flow HD 2 feeds

Some RSN HD over flow feeds that are not comcast systems? In the Chicago market they did not have CSN Chicago plus 2 HD. Directv and ATT did.

also don't have

fox sports florida plus hd

Some of MSG overflows in HD

••••
cramer
Premium Member
join:2007-04-10
Raleigh, NC
Westell 6100
Cisco PIX 501

cramer

Premium Member

Lazy Tivo, Inc.

The S3 and THD can decode MPEG4 -- maybe not Comcast's specific encoding. Tivo, Inc. is just being lazy (and pushing "upgrades") by not fixing their software. (just like the S3 can actually use an M-Card, but they openly said they aren't going to devote engineering resources to fix it.) Granted, those are rather old platforms.

(For the record, the THD was the last one with a modem built-in. So if you have cable where you don't have internet (read: parents, grandparents, beach house (tethered tablet/cell), etc.) then the later models won't work for ya'.)

•••••••
jpr281
join:2006-01-12
Shirley, NY

jpr281

Member

"MPEG-2" vs "MPEG-4"

The terms "MPEG-2" and "MPEG-4" do not offer enough information. Is the MPEG-4 being referred to H.262/H.263 ("divx/xvid" comparable) or H.264 ("x264") compression or something else? It makes a huge difference. You can get the same information in about half the needed bandwidth using the latter, and about a quarter of the needed bandwidth from the MPEG-2 that most service providers still use.

Here in Cablevision land, they are using H.264 for cloud DVR service on newer STBs.

As for Google Fiber using 15 Mbps, that's good enough to get a GREAT picture for 1080p (let alone 1080i or 720p) with 6 channel audio. Although it may be a little blocky during intense action/sports video -- assuming it's being transported in H.264.

•••

DaveDewave
@75.168.172.x

DaveDewave

Anon

MPEG4 compression

Why not present a breakthrough product, instead compressing pixels what about color vector compression? Almost infinity scalable to any resolution. I really grow tired of these slow trickle tick/tock incremental technology improvements. If industry wants to make money, they really have to "WOW" their customers with breakthroughs! What would take to make a desktop processor with a 1000 fold in speed?? Photonic? Molybdenum disulfide & graphene processors? Sales will continue to be sour until you empower.

Vector compression: »www.bath.ac.uk/news/2012 ··· xel-die/
floydb1982
join:2004-08-25
Kent, WA

floydb1982

Member

Will my current HD box have to be replaced???

I use the Motorola MR150CNMR. If Comcast switches over to MPEG-4 for HD then does that mean I'll have to get another HD box from Comcast or will my current box work with HD on MPEG-4 as well???