Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
| Just do wireless
"It took us some 10 months to go through the negotiations, which means one needs to start with the phone company maybe a year in advance of when you really want to launch service," Oppedahl says. "Others might have better luck than us with their phone company, in which case maybe they would not face a yearlong delay."
Give me a break. 10 months? GUH. Get a T1, find a spot for an access point and do wireless.
Dirk |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
|  But then he'd upset the Satellite radio providers!!!!!!!
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dead american hero |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Perhaps I'm biased but...
...might it make sense to consider avoiding the telco entirely and deploying a community-wide network based on fixed wireless? For example, a full or fractional T1 could be brought into a centrally located transmission station where everyone could connect to the transmitter via fixed wireless radios. The radios could be leased to the customers and included in the monthly cost (since it would most likely be a non-profit cooperative, the cost to the subscriber, including the lease and T1 payment, would be probably $20 to $30 per month).
With mesh technology on the verge of exploding, line-of-sight won't be required back to the central transmitter anymore. As long as a subscriber can see his or her neighbor's antenna, they'll be able to get access. Since this would be a cooperative, chances are "rules" could be engaged to prevent anyone from turning radios off, etc.
Not saying this is without perfection, but it's an idea.
Just my two cents! 
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| reply to Dirk Daring
Re: Just do wireless
You beat me to it, Dirk! 
We must have been typing at the same time!
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Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
 ·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to korym
Re: Perhaps I'm biased but...
I agree, but then someone can be a dick about it and report unlicensed wireless technology being deployed for profit, and then what do you have.. The FCC knocking on your door demanding that either you pay taxes/license fees for that spectrum, or shut the network down. I don't believe the FCC treats all short-range radio transmitters the same way they would with short-range walkie talkie radios, especially when it is for profit.
I know it's easier to deploy wireless, but I wouldn't mind deploying an infrastructure like "Coop." Would be very cool to have that kind of experience on your resume, let alone being able to play around with technology like that.
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Actually, I mentioned deploying as a non-profit coop for the community; not as a for-profit entity. Not sure where you read I mentioned as a profitable company!
There are many WISPs utilize unlicensed equipment throughout the U.S. for profit. Check out »www.bbwexchange.com/wisps/index.htm for a comprehensive listing.
But, since this would be a non-profit coop, this would work very well since no interaction with the telco would be required.
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Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
·Verizon Online DSL
| Ahh.. I overlooked that, sorry about that.
Yeah, I guess non-profit wireless Internet could work. Not having to pay the ILEC for leasing dead loop trunks would be nice too.
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| No prob, MosDef.
The better the coop could keep the telco (ILEC, CLEC, Ma-LEC, etc.) out of the loop (except for the backhaul circuit, of course; unless one finds a provider that's selling high-throughput, dedicated PtP 5.8GHz spectrum links!), the better for the end users.
I think with the influx of housing subdivisions in rural areas, this could be the next big thing for broadband.
Again, perhaps I'm biased!
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Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
·Verizon Online DSL
| Well.. At least it's an idea that could actually work. Now where's those venture capital investors..
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| LOL! You tell me! I've been looking for them for two+ years!
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Network Guy
join:2000-08-25
New York
·PHONE POWER
·Broadvox Direct
·Verizon Online DSL
| LOL! Ya. It amazes me how they were fine with pissing away money on DSL ISPs that resold ILEC DSL knowing that there would be no ROI for at least two or three years, on top of the fact that ILECs were pretty impossible in letting you resell to begin with. I don't get the methodology. So far what we've all seen is.. "Well.. It might work and might make us some cash eventually.. But since DSL is the latest hype why not think it may not make us cash, eh?" It's worst than trying to explain my parents way back when the reasons why it would be good to get broadband.
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oppedahl
join:2001-09-23
Dillon, CO
| reply to korym
As a director of the Ruby Ranch Internet Cooperative Association, I was interested to read your posting. You saw what troubles we had with Qwest, and you wonder, why don't we simply go wireless.
There are several reasons.
First, we are wireless. As you will see if you look at our web site at »www.rric.net, we use point-to-point wireless links (802.11, but not 802.11b) and high-gain antennas to bring a T1 to our neighborhood. From there we will be using DSL to reach the various homes.
But no, to answer your question, wireless is not workable within our neighborhood.
First, the area where we are is very hilly and very forested. As a consequence, wireless is simply not workable. Line of sight is impossible for most homes in our neighborhood.
Second, we have a lot of lightning here. We have already lost two 802.11 transceivers to lightning over the past year, in the point-to-point links mentioned above. We have put in some extra lightning protection there. But if we were to add several dozen more transceivers and antennas, we would be much more exposed to lightning risk than we are now.
Third, there are a lot of problems with 802.11b. If you turn on a CB radio nowadays, it is a cesspool. Everybody uses it for everything. Turn to the 49MHz band that used to be used for cell phones and baby monitors. It is now filled with competing users. The same has happened in the 900-MHz unlicensed band. It is already happening in the 2.4 GHz band. Microwave ovens, cordless phones, Bluetooth, other competing 802.11b users, they all trip over each other, fighting to use this ever-more-crowded band.
In other words, a system that works on Monday might not work on Tuesday.
If we hop from house to house, as you suggest, then troubleshooting is a nightmare. If somebody's connectivity goes out, we then would have to go to the next house over to troubleshoot, where the person may be out of town for a few weeks or months. (Our neighborhood has some homes that are second homes and the owners are not there very often.)
No, wireless would not be a good solution for us.
Thanks for the suggestion though. |
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oppedahl
join:2001-09-23
Dillon, CO
| reply to Dirk Daring
Re: Just do wireless
said by Dirk Daring:
"It took us some 10 months to go through the negotiations, which means one needs to start with the phone company maybe a year in advance of when you really want to launch service," Oppedahl says. "Others might have better luck than us with their phone company, in which case maybe they would not face a yearlong delay."
Give me a break. 10 months? GUH. Get a T1, find a spot for an access point and do wireless.
Dirk
We have a T1, thank you. And it is easy for you to say "find a spot for an access point and do wireless", but three is no such spot, not in our neighborhood. Had there been such a spot, we would have considered doing wireless. But there are too many hills and too many trees. Not to mention, the 2.4 GHz spectrum is filling up. A system that worked on Monday might not work on Tuesday due to some new user who is using 2.4 Gig for something else. |
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Brianv5
Low Level Functionary
Premium
join:2001-01-20
Keyser, WV
| Great idea, great cooperation, but..
Sounds awesome... I'd like to do it in my hometown in WV, where broadband won't be for 20 or so years!
BUT... how many homes are you putting on a T1? Anything over a dozen will pretty much suck up your bandwidth. Granted not everyone will be on all the time, but I plan for the worst. 1.544 divided by 10 or 20 houses puts you almost right back to ISDN speeds.
Regardless, its still a great project. If I were as good at business as I am geek stuff, I'd try it. |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| reply to oppedahl
Re: Perhaps I'm biased but...
You're very welcome, oppedahl! Thx much for responding. I'm actually very impressed that you've taken the time to share in the discussion here. I'm pulling for you guys, knowing what it's like to be in a broadband deprived area. Seeing your community pull together to try to deploy a network on your own is certainly commendable and an inspiration!
Congrats in using a PtP 802.11b bridge to bring the T1 to your neighborhood. I was only half-joking when I mentioned before a PtP to your neighborhood would be cool. I obviously don't know about your topology but am very glad to hear, of course, that the PtP is working out for you!
Here are some additional ideas which might be beneficial to you (yeah, I'm stubborn! ):
802.11b certainly does have its limitations, especially if there are plenty of 2.4GHz gear in the area. There are ways around this, of course, but it might be an idea to consider 802.11 (not 802.11b) FHSS gear like something from Raylink. Because FHSS basically hops through about 80 "micro-slivers" of the spectrum vs. 802.11b (DSSS) hopping through about three "macroslivers", the hopping sequence occurs much more frequently, thus allowing in lower interference issues. But, the caveat is that 802.11 isn't as fast as 802.11b, being 2Mbps raw data vs. 11Mbps raw data throughput.
Also, there are many 5.8GHz manufacturers coming out (i.e. Motorola's Canopy, for example) that'll eliminate the 2.4GHz spectrum saturation entirely as there aren't any cordless phones or baby monitors on the market that are within the 5.8GHz band (at least, none that I know of, FWIW!)
The lightning issue may be taken care of with a $30 to $40 unit called a Polyphaser LSX that sits in between the antenna and radio. I have a couple radios that have taken a few hits and stayed up (the antennas fried, though, but they're much cheaper than the radio; Alvarion BAII; long story!) without problems.
I understand your point about mesh. While it's certainly feasible (we're looking to create a wireless network for a small, rural town using mesh technologies; heavy trees there), our questions is, as you mentioned, how to ensure the radio stays on to allow traffic to flow to subs beyond the unit?
How Nokia did it with their Rooftop line is they built redundancy into the network which means if a subscriber unit goes down, the packets find the next available wireless connection to the next subscriber unit and adjusts the link automatically. The larger the deployment, the more redundant the network and the less problems that occur should a few homeowners turn their SU's off.
Whew!! Hope this might help shed some light on wireless.
Thx again!
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| reply to Brianv5
Re: Great idea, great cooperation, but..
Actually, Brian, I know of several WISPs that are putting up to 100 subscribers on one T1 and they're doing so successfully because they've oversubscribed a good mixture of business to residential subscribers that the T1's usage is evenly spread out.
Granted, we're talking about a residential deployment here but one way the housing community might bring in additional revenue is to sell access to that T1 during the day to businesses when most residents aren't home. Then, when the residents come home at night, the T1 is available for their use because the businesses will usually shut down at 5pm.
If a T1 is oversubscribed properly, all can be happy.
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Brianv5
Low Level Functionary
Premium
join:2001-01-20
Keyser, WV
| I can see doing it wireless, where your best connection won't be anything above 100K or so. Running the T1 out to DSL connections will soak up the bandwidth FAST. How many 300+K connections can you get from a T1? Two maybe three with overhead? Looking at their situation though, facing nothing but 26400bps dial up connections, I'd take anything else. |
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korym
Go Wisp's
ExMod 1999-03
join:1999-12-23
Richmond, VA
clubs:
| Check this out, Brian. You might find it interesting:
»accima.com/mrtg/odessa-gw.odessa···com.html
This is a WISP in Washington state that has 130 wireless subscribers on a single T1 circuit. He gives them the full pipe (doesn't bandwidth shape) and charges $.05 per Mb over 1Gb of data transfer per month.
The pipe's definitely not approaching capacity, probably because his subscribers are so nervous about going over their 1Gb transfer limit!
But, it's possible.
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Dirk Daring
join:2000-08-03
Ashburn, VA
|  reply to oppedahl
Re: Perhaps I'm biased but...
That's too bad wireless will not work for you all. I've been out to Colorado a few times, and yes I can believe that LOS can be a problem for a community.
You might want to look at the Nokia Rooftop for the heck of it anyhow, it's some pretty amazing stuff.
Good luck!
Dirk |
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dsless
join:2001-05-16
Pittsburgh, PA
|  reply to Brianv5
Re: Great idea, great cooperation, but..
Where are you from in WV? I live in Poca and am still waiting for Adelphia to bring powerstink to are area. To far for DSL. They don't have DSL at my co anyhow. But Verizon has it all around me. I have a Verizon IDSL line which took them 6 months to install and get functioning. WV broadband is 28.8. |
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