averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ | Competion?
"There's too much competition at just about every level."
Someone please explain this.
I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer. |
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TheGiant
Next Year Is Here.
join:2001-03-28
Augusta, GA
| Beyond Repair?
Too much competition??? I am lost here. How many choices do you have for Broadband and Phone service in your area? I have ONE. Seems like no Competition to me. One for Phone another for broadband internet not even the same here. The only thing we get choice on is who you pay your long distance phone bill to. What's that like 50 cents a month? I never make a phone call. E-mail and IMs are better. Cell Towers are all over the place. I wish someone would use them for a Wireless ISP soon.
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its a slow night if your replying in dev/null |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to averagedude
Re: Competion?
Not always...otherwise there aren't enough profits to push forward innovation and new products. Companies just slug along fighting for continued survival. They have to prepare themselves for an economic bump and if some fail it makes investors nervous and that's where a lot of their money comes from. Companies need to be big enough to weather an occasional storm without severe changes in services or going under. Right now...there aren't enough profits being made by some telcos that they're desperate...and they run down prices damaging profitable companies like Verizon. It brings down average service as companies like Verizon have cut services (thus costs) to match the price point of a failing and desperate company.
Some consolidation is good...but not this crap that the FCC is permitting like the ATTB/Comcast merger.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson
[text was edited by author 2002-12-09 20:12:26] |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to TheGiant
Re: Beyond Repair?
Telecom is more than just internet and local phone service. LD, wireless, business and other sectors are hugely important to telcos. And as you may not make LD phone calls...think about companies like General Motors, United Parcel Service or Kodak...and how much they spend on 800 numbers, business level data services and other services from telcos.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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TheGiant
Next Year Is Here.
join:2001-03-28
Augusta, GA
| reply to TheGiant
Right thats the Business Side. So why is the Telecom industry beyond repair? Seem like the Monopolies keep rolling on. The Break up of Ma Bell only made several small monopolies rather than one large one. Still the same to me. The more competition the better it is for the consumer business or residential.
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its a slow night if your replying in dev/null |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| reply to averagedude
Re: Competion?
said by averagedude  :
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
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I found out that all the important lessons of life are contained in the three rules for achieving a perfect golf swing: 1.Keep your head down - 2. Follow through - 3. Be born with money |
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averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
·Cox HSI
| reply to Count Hogula$
Still confused.
But, prices on internet and cell phones are still high (example ATTi/Comcast raising rates again). Isn't there a point where reducing prices to bring on board more customers will generate revenue that otherwise they would never had. They are suppose to make it up in bulk/quantity of sales. That is what Wal-Mart does.
I still feel that we as customers are still getting gouged (in general like internet and cell phone). I am tired of hearing that the customers have to carry the burden of all the mistakes of the big companies. It feels like the tele-coms can make stupid mistakes they want and they never "feel" the pain, but pass it on to the customers.
For example, I don't understand cell phones the take pictures, when I still get messages say "NO SERVICE" in populated area. I think they should focus on the basics first. Just my 2 cents. |
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pkust
join:2001-08-09
Houston, TX
| reply to averagedude
said by averagedude :
I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
Consumers want competition because it lowers prices. Suppliers don't want competition for exactly the same reason.
Whether there is too much or too little competition is highly dependent on which side of the supply and demand equation you happen to be standing.
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Cordially,
Peter Nayland Kust
pkust@tekmedia.com
TEKMedia Communications
www.tekmedia.com |
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jethrogump
Premium
join:2001-03-02
Mesquite, TX
| beyond repair???
Yes unless your SBC or Verizon it may really be beyond repair. Financing is like a nuclear winter its impossible or carries ridiculous terms like 15% int and a huge amount of your companies equity I see some real assinine deals. Taking this sort of funding just spells eventual disaster for an ISP or equipment manufacturer.
We need to be able to sell our tax losses for the last few years to get back on our feet. Something like the Broadband Investment act the moron's in Washington are kicking around. Never know they may yet do something benificial for broadband. |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | FUD
Aberdeen Group will say whatever their clients (the bells and cable companies) want them to say. Their "conclusion" doesn't surprise me. |
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Anubis Prime
join:2001-06-01
Indianola, PA
·Comcast
| reply to TheGiant
Re: Beyond Repair?
--(The more competition the better it is for the consumer business or residential.)---
I think this is what we'd all like to believe, but apparently from the real effects that the market is having on this sector, reality doesn't offer us truths to our liking.
In a finite world too much competition is just as bad as none. |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to averagedude
Re: Competion?
Prices on cell phones aren't high. Look how much minutes and hardware costs 7 years ago compared to today. Internet isn't expensive as it's relative. 10 years ago Netcom provided 14.4 service for $20...now you can get 10Mb for $40 if it's available. Deployment is a different issue from general telecom competition. ISP isn't a telecom's bread and butter business.
And lastly...your complaints about QoS is a direct result from competition. There aren't the profits to improve service, deploy, expand, etc. Technology advancements in phones while appearing to be part of the whole telco scene actually don't come from telcos...they come from manufactuers like Motorola who only make the phones but don't do the content providing.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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Count Hogula$
Notorious Dog
Premium
join:2002-06-19
Corona, CA
| reply to Anubis Prime
Re: Beyond Repair?
Finite world...EXACTLY. It's like having a network put out 3 zillion episode a year...they get watered down. Put out 13 and you get better stuff. The very very high competition prevents even moderate QoS investment. Subtle competition promotes primarily QoS investment.
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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson |
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
 ·PHONE POWER
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T CallVantage
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to averagedude
Re: Competion?
Nothing is that black-and-white. Certainly not economics!
Ideally:
Competition amongst a handful of vendors ensures that each vendor strives to have customers give them their dollars. They provide incentives and the most reasonable price possible while maintaining enough profitability to have good service quality, ensuring that they are chosen over the competition.
(Let's use a bread shop as an example)
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices.
Less ideally:
A big corporation comes in and competes with smaller companies in town. To do this, they sell their product at a loss long enough to put the smaller guys out of business. The consumers benefit from this practice, until the competition is gone and the prices go up.
BreadMart comes in and sells halfway decent bread for .10 a loaf, for 6 months. Even if the local mom'n pop bread tasted better, it's just hard for the consumer to pass up such a good deal. Since nobody's buying mom'n pop's bread, they and other's like them can't withstand to lose money for that long and all go out of business. BreadMart jacks the prices back up to $5 a loaf.
Even less ideally:
There's so much competition in the sector that none of the companies are turning enough of a profit to maintain a decent service level.
Since bread was such a hot item, everyone is trying to sell it at $2 a loaf. There are 30 vendors selling bread. Not enough variety to make any one vendor noticeably better than the other (they're all selling pretty much the same thing), so people more or less choose at random. There's only 200 people in town that buy bread, so each vendor is only selling 5 or 6 loaves a day on average. The profits from 5 loafs a day isn't enough to pay the rent and for the employees, so they all shorten their hours, hire the cheapest help they can find, and resort to using inferior quality ingredients to stay alive. People get so used to inferior service but continue to pay because they "need" bread. A couple companies attempt to sell good quality bread with good service at $3 to turn a proper profit, but people are now so used to *cheap bread with mediocre service* that it seems overpriced.
So, competition isn't *always* the answer.
[text was edited by author 2002-12-09 21:56:14] |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| said by djrobx :
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices
The problem is is that nobody is making a better loaf of bread. its all this sleepy 1500/128 crap. us consumers have been crying for YEARS for BETTER UPLOAD RATES. now its the same 1500/128 but who has the most liberal TOS. that isnt better, thats just who's tightening the screws to us the least. if they can have 10,000/10,000 for $22 in sweden why cant we even have 2,000/2,000 for $50? |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| reply to TKJunkMail
said by TKJunkMail :
said by averagedude :
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
Correction- don't invest your 401(k) in telco stocks IFF (if and only if) you are retiring in the next 2-5 years.
If you have another 15-30 years to go before retirement, telco is the EXACT WAY to invest your 401(k) money. Think about it- you are buying stock at DIRT CHEAP prices. Are you actually afraid that in the next 20-30 years the market won't change for the better?
I, for one, would rather have 40 shares purchased at $1 and now worth $50 than 1 share purchased at $40 and now worth $50. My 40 shares would be worth $200 vs the 1 share at $50.
About 11% of people actually make money in the stock market- and it is primarily because they don't understand the idea of "buy low, sell high." They buy high and sell when it bombs to a low- saying, "don't buy now! the prices for stock are too low!!"
I say, "Are you that crazy??"
Booogie |
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boogie74
join:2001-06-19
Neenah, WI
clubs:
| reply to dvd536
said by dvd536 :
said by djrobx :
One bread shop, having cornered the market, overcharges $10 for a bland loaf of bread. Then 4 new competitors come in with new types of breads and better prices (say $2 a loaf), forcing the original company to do better. Everyone enjoys better tasting bread at lower prices
The problem is is that nobody is making a better loaf of bread. its all this sleepy 1500/128 crap. us consumers have been crying for YEARS for BETTER UPLOAD RATES. now its the same 1500/128 but who has the most liberal TOS. that isnt better, thats just who's tightening the screws to us the least. if they can have 10,000/10,000 for $22 in sweden why cant we even have 2,000/2,000 for $50?
If you need better upload rates than 128 Kbps, then you are doing MUCH MORE than Joe Consumer surfing the web, playing an occasional online game, checking and sending email, and downloading music/video files.
When you want consumer rates for non-consumer use and complaining because the TOS doesn't allow for that, something besides the TOS stinks.
Boogie |
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ihaddsl
join:2001-12-05
/dev/hda0
·Comcast
| reply to boogie74
said by boogie74 :
said by TKJunkMail :
said by averagedude :
"There's too much competition at just about every level." I thought we wanted competition in order to drive down prices for the consumer.
The competition is GREAT for the consumer. Just don't invest your 401k money in telco stocks. Their stock prices aren't going up any time soon.
Correction- don't invest your 401(k) in telco stocks IFF (if and only if) you are retiring in the next 2-5 years.
If you have another 15-30 years to go before retirement, telco is the EXACT WAY to invest your 401(k) money. Think about it- you are buying stock at DIRT CHEAP prices. Are you actually afraid that in the next 20-30 years the market won't change for the better?
I, for one, would rather have 40 shares purchased at $1 and now worth $50 than 1 share purchased at $40 and now worth $50. My 40 shares would be worth $200 vs the 1 share at $50.
About 11% of people actually make money in the stock market- and it is primarily because they don't understand the idea of "buy low, sell high." They buy high and sell when it bombs to a low- saying, "don't buy now! the prices for stock are too low!!"
I say, "Are you that crazy??"
Booogie
sssshhhhh
don't let the secret out !
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War has no winners, only losers |
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BrianDamage
We Are The Hounds From Hell
Premium
join:2001-08-14
Rowlett, TX
clubs:
| reply to Count Hogula$
"If it's available" is the key problem.
"The U.S. telecom market might best be an inherent oligopoly, where you should have only have three or four players per region, because it is such a capital-intensive industry."
Too much competition? Ummmmm....kay.....I have one DSL choice, one cable choice, one satellite choice? That's too much competition? Please.
I wonder how much SBC paid that analyst to say what he said.
And Hog, according to your logic, then any "new" company that wants to provide competitive service has to start OUT as a large company, eh? Name ONE that started out large and got smaller, instead of the only other way, which is start small and get LARGER.
It is nice to see that one analyst acknowledges the oligopoly that exists, though.
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After ten long years they let him out of the home...(excitable boy, they all said)...and he dug up her grave and built a cage with her bones...(excitable boy, they all said)... |
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alex4life
Alex4life
Premium
join:2001-06-22
Delta, BC
| reply to boogie74
said by boogie74 :
If you need better upload rates than 128 Kbps, then you are doing MUCH MORE than Joe Consumer surfing the web, playing an occasional online game, checking and sending email, and downloading music/video files.
When you want consumer rates for non-consumer use and complaining because the TOS doesn't allow for that, something besides the TOS stinks.
Boogie
That's a matter of opinion, not fact. 128 is a crap upload. What if you want to send a big file to a friend? It takes forever! Why can't our speeds be more synchronous? Why is that considered to be criminal by you?
If these services don't offer what people want, then maybe they shouldn't be offering them at all. Maybe that's the problem. The demand is there, but the companies can't supply it.
And he has a point. No one is offering anything better.
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"A Festivus for the rest of us" -Seinfeld Drop by the Canadian Forum! |
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