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Comments on news posted 2000-06-26 01:05:30: Yes. I am the guy you talk to when you call to find out what is happening with your DSL installation. I will detail the DSL process so that you can understand what happens and what problems can occur. ..
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 | Anon |  Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish
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| | | | | Anon | Hmmmm. I can summarize this article in a few lines:
1. It's not our fault;
2. There's nothing we can do;
3. You're own your own;
4. We don't work well with others.
Now here is an industry where some mergers might be a good thing. Oh wait, that's Pac Bell.... | |
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 stray
join:2000-01-16
Warren, NJ | Good overview Zorch!
Seems like another target audience for this write up might be the Sales and Marketing groups at many of the DSL providers. Heck, they could even share this information with prospective customers before charging their credit cards!
Whoops! That might affect subscriber counts, IPO prospects, executive stock options.... Scratch that suggestion! | |
| | Anon | Thanks for taking the time for this great amount of input. I'm sure many appreciate this article!
Keep it up! | |
| | Anon | Very nice article.
There are to many ways DSL with a CLEC + ISP can go wrong. I do not see this possibilty happening near as much with cable internet service, or with ILEC + ISP/Telco.
It makes me wonder about the viability of wholesale DSL providers.
Frank | |
| | | Anon |  Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish
Overall DSL is a great product and it is well worth the frustrations. Once you have DSL you will never consider going back to a modem.
Now where cable is concerned, if you have the equipment and you know how to install it then a cable company could/should have you up and running in 15 minutes since they own everything involved in the process and only a software change is really necessary on their end. | |
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|  Hayward K A R - 1 2 0 CPremium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1 | Re: Yelco no smother are ride You would think it might be, but check out particularly BA, Ameritech, and SW/PacBell.
They screw up their own customers just as well as anyone elses. | |
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 jsimmonsPremium,MVM
join:2000-04-24
Falls Church, VA | Thanks Zorch....
I'm sure many readers will appreciate the explanation. The fact that many people actually get thru the whole process and get up and running in less than a month with minimal issues (me included)is amazing. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge of the process with us consumers.
Jim S. | |
|  DrTCPYours trulyPremium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX | My $0.02 regarding DMT upstream/downstream frequency usage mentioned in the article:
DMT uses echo cancellation. As a result upstream/downstream frequencies may overlap. That's the modem can use the same frequency to transmit and recive at the same time. The difference, is that downstream frequencies extend much higher than upstream frequencies.
Some implementations of DMT choose to do away with echo cancellation and separate upstream/downstream frequencies. But, again this is just an implementation issue. To satisfy full rate (8Mbps) downstream, upstream and downstream freqencies must overlap and echo cancellation must be used by DSLAM and modem.
Tolunay | |
| | Anon | Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain all that. My DSL installation finally happened after 4 install dates and about 3 months of waiting, but I can now appreciate the "horror stories" of other users who could wait even longer and never even get it done.
I only wish that ISPs wouldn't push sales on areas which they know as repeasted trouble spots that are bound to cause nothing but frustration. But that's the way the business world works.
Thanks a lot Zorch! | |
| | Anon | While I can apreciate the detailed explanation, I feel one thing is very wrong here. In several instances you make mention that "Thats the way it is" and "Cant do anything about it". This unfortunatly is unwillingness from a company to get itself involved. If you have a service agreement with a telco for reselling DSL lines and such, I cannot beleive that in all that there is a clause that says "The Telco will do what it wants, and the ISP has no say over it". I would never involve myself in a business like that, and my experince with DSL so far (2 years, 1 month and 23 days TRYING to get it so far) has shown me that people just dont care anymore. I decided to see what the alternatives mkight be, and in less than 15 days I had a T1 setup, installed and configured from a company that does indeed care about getting things done.
nice tech details though. | |
| | | Anon | Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish
Just realize that the main reason that people go elsewhere for DSL is that they don't want to deal with a telco as an ISP.
You also neglect to mention how much the T1 costs, the additional hourly fees, the line conditioning charges, the contract duration and the ISP fees. Even if these are rolled into one monthly fee they will add up to some pretty huge numbers that makes the service out of reach for the standard consumer and very profitable for the telco.
A full T1 is essentially 24 phone lines, only good for 12K feet, and requires extensive line conditioning. The telcos, in servicing a T1, not only return your calls, but they probably say thank you and hold the door open for you. DSL is much simpler, easier and cheaper to implement. A dry copper line is probably the cheapest service you can buy from a telco and probably has the lowest priority of all whereas a T1 will use the same line, conditioned, to a phone switch where it counts as 24 lines (+1 for signaling data). Even if it goes to a different service provider for internet services only the telco will still be collecting fees in installing and maintaining the line.
In a free market economy things would be different, you could punish a poorly performing company by not buying their services, but how are you supposed to punish a telco? You have to use their lines and there is no way around it.
Allow me also to restate that these are not typical cases. They happen to many people, but many telcos and technicians are reliable and responsible about their work and they do their work as well as possible. | |
| | | | Anon |  Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish
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| | | | NeosumPremium
join:2000-06-03
Oakland, CA | Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish
In true honesty, what can you possibly do? The telco can simply tell you that after careful testing, you don't qualify and terminate your order. What can you do now?
I'm sorry, but the telco owns the lines. If you want to use it, then you'll have to go by their rules, settle for what they gave you, or be stuck with nothing at all.
I found the DSL installation explanation to be very useful and informative. I now understand the possiblities of why my DSL may be delayed. I'd rather have it later than never at all. Thanks for the info. | |
| | | | | Anon | Unfortunately Zorch is not full of it. I work in the customer service dept of an ISP and see exactly what Zorch describes everyday. You don't know how much I wish the article was an exaggeration! | |
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| | | Anon | Re: DSL installation explained from start to finis
-they make the least money of the three
-they spend the most money on support/CS
-they handle the billing
-they reimburse for outages out of pocket
It's not really the best position to be in, but it's the only direction to go in for now. In some regions, partnering with a reseller is your only choice unless you have enough VC to go and colo at the COs. And if you do that, you also need a VERY good legal team to sue your ILEC occasionally for not giving you what you pay for.
It's all pretty glum, but that's how it is at this point. Line sharing should help things somewhat, in that if the ILEC tries to yank your DSL line for other purposes, they kill their own dialtone as well 
It will be interesting when cable plants are opened to competing ISPs... | |
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|  elbm
join:2000-08-03
Reisterstown, MD | The big difference between ordering a T1 vs. an ADSL is the T1 is handled by the "old phone company." A T1 order goes thru the Telco's Bussiness Office, Assignment, Engineering, I&R, Special Services, Cable Maintenance and sometimes Construction. All of which are parts of the regulated "old phone companies." These departments will get involed, in limited capacities, with an ADSL-- but are not ultimately responsible for the ADSL. Most of the ADSL work is handled buy subsidiaries and contractors. The difference being the employees of the "old phone company" have been around 20-30 years, plan on staying and know who to call when things break-down. For the subsidiaries and contractors the work is just a job, it is not a career, they have little time, little training and few contacts outside their building. DSL is just the tip of the iceberg, wait for full blown unbundling. | |
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| | Murphy's got me by the short hairs for sure. It's been 75 days since the splitter was installed, line tested good to 7 Mbps, and solid sync established; and I have not ONCE been able to logon to the account setup server. I've had my "profile" rebuilt again and again, and FIVE trouble tickets closed without finishing the job or even checking if I had connectivity. My "best friend" at Broadband has been very good about getting back to me -- he even sent my case to some kind of Internal Affairs-type team that investigates when the CO repeated closed trouble tickets without fixing the problem. Can you imagine that is such a common problem at BA that they have a team that does nothing else? It's a damn good thing I don't NEED DSL. I'm starting to have wild Rambo-like fantasies about invading the Bridge Street CO and knocking heads or whatever it takes to just fix it. | |
| | | Anon | Re: Brooklyn BA Horror Story On my post on this dsl install I neglected to mention I too had tickets closed with no results or jobs being finished which upset me | |
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| Anon | sum it up in three words: anger, denial and acceptance!
I experienced confusion at the time of order, delivery, expediting why I didn't get my moded/self install kit when I was supposed to, bad line filters, instaling an external filter, re-running cable throughout the house and then finially...fixing a bridge-tap 2000' away and a new card in the C.O.
luckily I had a very committed tech who was like a pit-bull with an attitude. I'm 768/128 and reliable. I can really appreciate the indepth inside story on dsl, having experienced it firsthand. I'm told the good news is that 95% of the time, the self install kits actually work without all the headaches. | |
| | | And I'm the guy that's pissed off at your employer.
I understand that the reseller (ISP) is the small guy in the tandem of three, but as I said many times, I have a DSL account with a reseller not with a provider or a Telco. Let's do this: when my speed is crappy and tech support is blaming it on total different issues just to distract the customer from the real problem -CORPORATE INCOMPETENCE (they asked me if I have fluorescent lights in the house, give me a break!! they have a full list of them by now) or when they disconnect my copper pair from the CO, "We thought nobody was using it, oops!"I will tell them that they can't not charge my credit card monthly because my employer didn't make a profit therefore he didn't pay me this month so I can not pay my DSL bill.
Get a freaking conscience and start assuming responsibilities as an ISP, I don't care what Telco or DSL provider do or says, it's crunch time, you are responsible for my line and service. Bottom line I pay you and I want service, real service for $50 bucks not the crap you give me now 95kbps-down/14kpps-up when it's supposed to be 1.5M/386(best effort).
What I know for sure it's that the customer has it's own fault, like me, I went to Earthlink/Mindsping at the time 'cause they had the best value for the money and now I will not go anywhere else after so much hassle that I went thru. I'm not sure there is any decent ISP and if there is I apologize and can I please have a link to them
Why the customer has his own fault? You might ask, well as we all know everything revolves around the mighty buck, we don't subscribe they don't make any dough; stockholders jump at their neck.
I know it sounds extreme and it's hard to achieve but I don't think as customers we have other choices (unless your uncle is the CTO of an ISP,he,he,he).
It's bad PR to have a bunch of customers drooping service on you. Forget it! that will never happen .At least flooding their mail servers with complaints. But that just me, I've been wrong in the past also.
At least I did my part:
www.delphi.com/dslconnected
menumorut
"Do you think I'm funny? Do you?How about you?Yeah?
So what am I now a f*****g clown?" | |
| | | Anon | Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish typical heartless ununderstanding uneducated angry customer who has a bad service. | |
| | Hayward K A R - 1 2 0 CPremium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
kudos:1 | Re: You laugh about Floresent lights But the produce RF (radio frequency) energy. If they are dirty or bad they can cause all kinds of problems.
I had a bad compact floresent buld going bad take out half my X-10 home automation system (which uses RF over AC wiring). Finally I connected with when this light is off it worked. It was not obvious as it was a normally on light.
Same is true of ANY RF devices, cordless phones, home video transmitter links, wireless security systems etc. If their RF is bad or dirty beware. | |
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| | I appreciate the effort you expended to review the subject from your point of view. I agree that the problem here is that the Telcos have no competition. As providers of the line, they are forced to cooperate with the competition (outside DSL and ISP providers). As such they have little incentive to provide excellent service to you or to the customer (unless of course they are the ISP &/or DSL provider). I also appreciate the frustration you must feel at not being able to control the inner workings of the telco, who we all rely upon to do their part, while having to interface with the customer who thinks you do have that control.
This technology is in its infancy, and in 5 - 10 years, I predict that infrastructural problems like the ones faced today will appear archaic and passe. We, as relatively early adopters of this new technology, are going to pay the most in terms of time, hassle, frustration, and dollars, in order to experience the best technology has to offer. It really is true that you get what you pay for, and some of what you "pay" to get DSL is the struggle.
There is probably a silent majority of consumers who get up and running without too much hassle (myself included), and for who, all of the behind the scenes activities are completely transparent (as they should be). The efforts of persons like yourself go unrecognized in that regard. Your article was very helpful to me to understand all of that. Thanks. | |
| | | when you get a FOC date from the phone company what back ground work have they done. Reason for my question -- I got 3 foc dates from my phone company and each time they did not show up. well i complained and now they tell me i have load coils on my line??? Should they have known this when they gave me my first FOC date?? | |
| | | Good job on that article..amazes me that my service was up and running in two weeks. Had some problems installing the modem. (Windows didn't like the correct drivers.) The tech support people were patient and extremely helpfull. Goodjob Bellsouth !!!!!! Thanks for the article Zorch! | |
| mrhex2
join:2000-03-14
Portland, OR | I must agree with zorch on this one. I used to work for a company that does outsourced tech support for almost 100 different ISPs from around the U.S. One call I might have Joe Blow from Montana wondering why he can't get above 14.4 while living in the boonies. The next will be some whining ass bitch complaining that her business relies on getting her email and she MUST have her account up within an hour or else she will cancel her service; the thing that she doesn't realize is that there is only a certain amount of limited things that can be done. Otherwise the only thing that I can do is just add a trouble ticket to the database, and wait for the admin/technician of the particular ISP fix the problem at their leisure. In the meantime we would take the heat for everything. In my experience usually the people that are the assholes about their service not being perfect and the crap about, "I want what I am paying for!" are usually the people that barely know where the power button for their computer is. One word of advice that can impart on the impatient and sometimes assholic customers of DSL is if your DSL installation isn't working do this:
1. First take a deep breath.
2. Relax
3. Then call up your tech support and remember don't be a fucking asshole to the tech support. Believe it or not tech support really is your best friend when you have a problem.
If you do that then trust me the person answering the tech support call will be more inclined to help you, then if you are just yelling at the top of your lungs at the tech support guy wondering why your DSL won't work. Because otherwise you would just get a load of shit excuses why your service won't work. Oh and another thing don't try to make the tech support guy mad by thinking that you know everything about computers(even you know more than the tech support guy). | |
| |  Will0wThe Shadow Doesn'T Hold Sway Over Me
join:2000-08-06
Yllirien | Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish
There's no excuse for BA to continue aggresive advertising and accept new orders when (I would speculate) thousands if not tens of thousands of customers are served the standard ADSL "meal", which seems to consist of a large plate of GREED, topped with a huge heaping of INEPTNESS and sprinkled with an abundance of LACK OF COMMUNICATION.
". First take a deep breath.
2. Relax
3. Then call up your tech support and remember don't be a f*cking *sshole to the tech support. Believe it or not tech support really is your best friend when you have a problem.
"
Ok, I've tried that. For the last three months, infact, on a daily basis, being more than co-operative, friendly, cordial ad nauseum with the people on the other end of the telephone and choosing to smash inanimate objects only AFTER the call has been completed...Altough to be sure, I wouldn't wish some of these "best friends" on my worst enemies. Now what?
Nonsence, all of it. I as an individual do business with dozens of partners and can co-ordinate the successful resolution of a problem within a matter of hours, if not less. There is no excuse... What a miserable business you guys are in.. In all honesty, I'd hate to be in your shoes (or cubicles, rather) as this seems to me more shady and iffy than used car sales.
A consumer's perspective.
Jennifer Leigh
PS I WANT WHAT I AM PAYING FOR!  (or rather, I don't want the privilage to PAY FOR speaking with more teenagers, and loosing more time, money and patience in the process. And yeah, I know where my PC's power button is, have known for quite some time. Not that it helps any in getting a god-damned sync signal to my adsl modem... What a load of bull we, the consumers are served on all fronts... Technical problems? Can't get the signal from a-b? Then don't SELL THE SERVICE and if you're going to sell, then be sure it works first... Cable is here, and Roadrunner, Cablevision (perhaps others) are already beginning to target the area. People will jump ship, and that will be the end of it, except it is costing US, not the telco b*stards.
ROADRUNNER & CABLEVISION, I hope you're getting all of this. Get some service to the Brooklyn/NYC region and make a killing, as there are thousands of people here who'd pay double BA's prices to get a decent level of service. (I know I would.) | |
| | |  bcoolPremium
join:2000-08-25
The Ozarks | Re: DSL installation explained from start to finish Thank you Jennifer! I was ready
to puke after reading that snotty
kid's take on tech support.
Well said!
-B | |
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| Anon | When it comes to DSL, at first I was really upset, My telco is my ISP and I got it dec 31 1999 and the first week it wouldn't even work, They did there normal check list OVER and OVER check your settings each time they would change one thing, They had me even reinstall windows and it still didn't work. Over the week they said they would call me back in 24 hours and it ends up 75% of the time I had to call them cause they didn't even bother to call me back as they promised, After a week I had gotten tired of them lying and told them I would cancel the order go to someone else who would give me service I paid for and not tell me lies and take a week just to get up and running, I said I give you 24 hours to have it up or I call pco (product control operations) on them. They finally said I was put in the router wrong and they were so sorry, I explained I was not going to pay for my first month of dsl as I couldn't even log in on my free dial up they provide, The whole time they said oh we can log on here so its your computer crap they finally admitted to being in the wrong and gave my 1st month free. Several months later I find out the dsl modem (efficient networks speedstream 3060 PPPaA) i got with my service has many problems with conflicts with SoundBlaster sound cards, so I made them give me an external modem (Westell wirespeed PPPoE) that finally rocks with no problems with install, They were fast on bring the new modem (24 h) they swapped modems said it would be at the most 24 hours for them to reprovision my account from PPPoA to PPPoE and this time they were on the money,
Im sure they have a nice LONG record of my 1000 calls of complaints to them so they rushed it hehe
John | |
| | | Great message. Cuts through a lot of the clutter and helped me understand the difference between CAP and DMT (and why my Cisco 675 won't work with Hell Atlantic, aka Hell on the Horizon).
thx | |
| | Anon | I can't seem to find this info anyplace, I would like to know if an Alcatel 1000 and a Speedstream 3060-4060 use the same DSLAM's in the CO?
Where can you get this kind of info? Is it like the old modem standards? V.29, V.32, V.34 etc.
Thanks,
John | |
| | Anon | I've printed your document out (5 pp.) so I can read it fully & carefully.
I live in a 750-unit (5, 2-sided, 4-storey buildings) apartment complex (in Palo Alto, CA) & when I felt I wanted DSL service, I got negative experience reports from neighbors seeking service from the Telco itself. Then I learned that Darwinmail.net specialized in multi-unit housing & had a demo setup nearby. Also met one satisfied customer neighbor. So I gave Darwinmail a try. Installer came same week & no problems for the 2+ months since.
DSLReports speed testing (via 3 locations) at various times says I'm getting around 700 Kb/s symmetrical.
But I've never seen any mention whatever of Darwinmail anywhere on the DSLReports Web site!
I've heard they got a boost from Cisco when they were struggling financially. I think I've located the "head end" of their "T-1" Line (from here to Kentucky, they say!) as a large black box in the garage of my own building (near the complex's center). | |
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