Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
 ·Verizon FIOS
| It does more then regulate your poop
Yeah, I'd definitely like fiber to my home (here in PA, hahah suxors to be all of j00). In all seriousness though, it's not like BA/VZ made a promise to have 45mbps FTTH just "cuz". They got something from the deal as well. If they don't hold up to their end of the deal, then we revoke everything that we gave to them. If that means that we benefitted them 5 billion dollars, then I guess the PA citizens should expect 5 billion dollars.
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Question
I haven't been able to read it all yet but it strikes me that it's a stretch that Vz promised 45Mb to 20% of all homes by 98.
It promised to 45Mb available and 20% of homes wired for broadband but that is 2 different things.
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
 ·VOIPo
| reply to Archivis
Re: It does more then regulate your poop
said by Archivis  :
If that means that we benefitted them 5 billion dollars, then I guess the PA citizens should expect 5 billion dollars.
I would expect more if I were you.
Actual Damages:
- $5,000,000,000
- Interest on that $5,000,000,000 for the years that the money was in Verizon's posession
Punitive Damages (this is where I would have fun if I were a judge and a case involving this came before me):
- $15,000,000,000 (or whatever the maximum the law stipluates I could award)
As these were promises made to public officials, I would also suggest that the state see if they can prosecute Verizon's upper management (at least those who managed the PA operations) in some fashion. There needs to be both civil and criminal penalties thrown at Verizon and their crooked management; that's the only way they will learn that being the bad corporate entity they choose to be can (and will) cost them big time.
When they promise something they have no intention of delivering, they should be made to hurt. Make Verizon bleed over this. Screw them as they screw others. Make an example out of them-- that's the only way to prevent this from happening in the future.
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lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
| No Way!
Well I for one would never believe that a large telco would lie and deceive anyone, especially consumers and state regulators. They only have our best interests in mind.
I can't speak like a French diplomat, but I can act like one. 
[text was edited by author 2003-02-19 15:29:38] |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to NOVA_Guy
Re: It does more then regulate your poop
Yeah, you're right... I only hope that the PA board continues to have a backbone to stick to their guns.
I'd much rather have them spend whatever money they're forced to on what they originally promised. This would SERIOUSLY boost the economy. Can you imagine all the tech jobs that would come into place? I could make a killing just splicing fiber for another decade and a half.
Make them own up to it, force them to hold up to their end of the bargain, don't just make them pay it all back. I'll be lucky to see five dollars of that back.
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bistro777
Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do?
Premium
join:2002-02-07
Englewood, CO
| reply to Archivis
From Verizon's Web site - - - "Make progress every day. We understand that life is not always about dramatic change, but more often about the small steps and achievements we make each day. Whether you want to make progress in your life or business, we can help. We're standing behind you to help you move forward, however you define progress in your life."
All PA taxpayers should rise up, demand that progress, and shout, "Can you hear us NOW?"
Some say the glass is half full; others say it’s half empty. I say, “Are you going to drink that?” |
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Dewi
Premium
join:2001-09-28
united kingd | reply to Pathfinder
Re: Question
I've not been able to read it at all because it is a word doc (I'm on a linux box, which is a dev machine without openoffice). I would surely be mucho pleased if some could post the salient contents in plain text (or link to pdf) |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| And I thought Cox Communications was bad...
...But they are nothing compared to Verizon. When Cox didn't keep its promise last year to have digital cable to 100% of Fairfax county, I thought that they needed to be severely punished. Unfortunately the Board of Supervisors down here didn't agree with me, and only fined them $2,000,000 (plus fines for each day after the target date that they don't deliver).
But this is amazing. Verizon made these promises, apparently with no intent to deliver on them. And then they go ahead and make stupid statements to the effect of being able to deliver 45Mbps speed to places like Altoona if someone wants to pay for it. Wake up Verizon. You made the agreement to deliver. The people of PA have already paid you through tax breaks and the like-- they shouldn't have to pay a second time to have that cable delivered. You should deliver it for free, and the RJ45 connection at the end of each cable should be gift-wrapped for the amount of money that PA has essentially given you.
If $2,100,000,000 doesn't pay for 45Mbps broadband to be delivered to every home, then I don't know what does. Again, it just goes to show how large companies like Verizon are corrupt and will stop at nothing to scam the government and the public. It once again proves how these companies put profits first, and the people they service last.
Verizon should now be forced by the state to implement this service to all of its residents, and operate the network for free to anyone in PA who wants to use it for the next several years. Barring this, Verizon should be forced to pay every penny of the $5,000,000,000 plus interest back to the state. They should then be forced to pay punitive damages for the lies that they told in an amount large enough to make things painful for the company.
[Edited the amount of money that Verizon stole from Pennsylvanians]
[text was edited by author 2003-02-19 15:58:57] |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to bistro777
Re: It does more then regulate your poop
Heh... I just want to see what happens.
Leviathon, if you're watching. Could you do me a favor and keep track of updates? You've got better contacts in this media biz then I do.
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lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
| And this....
" Speaking to the Philadelphia Inquirer, Ronald F. Weigel, director of government relations for Verizon's Pennsylvania division, says the company could provide any school, business, or residence within Verizon's service area with a 45 Mbps connection, provided they could pay for it. "I don't care if they're in Altoona or Philadelphia, we're prepared to offer it," he suggests."
How about DSL from a remote terminal Mr. Weasel? |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| reply to Archivis
Re: It does more then regulate your poop
said by Archivis :
Yeah, you're right... I only hope that the PA board continues to have a backbone to stick to their guns.
I'd much rather have them spend whatever money they're forced to on what they originally promised. This would SERIOUSLY boost the economy. Can you imagine all the tech jobs that would come into place?
That would be great. I'm originally from Western PA, living in Northern Virginia-- some day I would like to return "home" and find some work in the tech sector and live around Pittsburgh. (I've got plenty of family and friends there) Having the whole state wired like this would be a serious boost to the tech sector there, and just might allow me to return-- much sooner, if not immediately...
I too hope that the PA PUC decides to fight the good fight-- not just for the residents of the state, but for people everywhere. There are those of us who would like to move back to PA that would benefit from it. There are also countless others who would benefit indirectly by having a company like Verizon be forced to keep its promises for once.
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Cox cable: the hallmark questionable business practices and lousy cable service! |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to NOVA_Guy
Re: And I thought Cox Communications was bad...
wait wait wait wait....
don't start tossing around this 5 billion dollar figure.
I just used that hypothetically in my post.
The actual figure is a little less then half that. Quite large, but lets keep the facts straight.
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth | reply to NOVA_Guy
Re: It does more then regulate your poop
Anyone know the address of a government official that I could write to that has a say in this? |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to Dewi
Re: Question
The doc file is way too huge to paste. Here's the summary. It goes into depths about the scams done at Verizon. I'm still reading it. I'd recommend finding a machince capable of reading it, and possibly print it out. Here's the summary
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EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
The Verizon Pennsylvania Commitment and Outcome
In 1994, Verizon Pennsylvania (then Pennsylvania Bell a subsidiary of Bell Atlantic) was granted the 'deregulation' of state laws that essentially gave the Bell company financial incentives to rewire the state with fiber optics for broadband services.
The Commitments:
"In view of Bell¡¦s commitment to providing 45 Mbps for digital video transmission both upstream and downstream, we look forward to Bell¡¦s providing this two-way digital video transmission at 45 Mbps."
"Verizon PA has committed to making 20% of its access lines in each of rural, suburban, and urban rate centers broadband capable within five days from the customer request date by end of year 1998; 50% by 2004; and 100% by 2015."
"In order to meet this commitment, Bell plans to deploy a broadband network using fiber optic or other comparable technology that is capable of supporting services requiring bandwidth of at least 45 megabits per second or its equivalent."
"It is apparent that DSL, as it currently exists today, (March 2002), is unable to provide the broadband availability of 45 Mbps both upstream and downstream that the Company voluntarily committed to and the Commission approved in 1995."
What is being promised is the replacement of the older copper wiring with a new, fiber-optic service that has speeds of 45 mbs in both directions. This is 50-100 times the current ADSL service, which goes over the 100-year-old copper wiring and is a mostly one-way product. The agreement also requires Verizon-PA to wire both rural as well as urban areas---- 20% by 1998, 50% by 2004. And this service is fiber-optics directly into the home and office, not ending at the street. Today, there are no homes with this wiring or that delivers the speed.
On March 28, 2002, the Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission rejected Verizon Pennsylvania's compliance with the state Alternate Regulation plan, stating that the Bell company had not satisfied its legal obligations to supply broadband services at 45mbs.
"¡Kthis Commission has a legal obligation to reject Verizon PA¡¦s 2000 Update and require it to submit a new update specifying its plans to satisfy its legal obligation to provide a modernized network with broadband capability of at least 45 Mbps upstream and downstream, to be available within five days from the customer request date."
TeleTruth and its members applaud the actions by the Pennsylvania Commission and await their continued analysis of the failure of Verizon, PA to deploy broadband. However, our position is that this situation warrants additional investigations into the possible fraudulent acts by Verizon, among other claims.
We believe:
„h Verizon over the last decade make false and misleading statements about proposed 'broadband" services to the Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission, the public and other regulatory bodies in order to reduce regulations and make more profits. They succeeded in getting large financial incentives for a broadband network they could never deliver.
„h Verizon lied when it said it could rewire 20% of the state with fiber-optics by 1998, 50% by 2004, including both rural and urban areas, and delivering speeds of 45mbs in both directions.
„h Verizon pulled a "Bait-and Switch" promising a new broadband fiber-optic digital future that could change the state's entire economy, and instead Verizon is barely rolling out an inferior ADSL product over the old, already existing wiring.
„h Verizon is illegally using ratepayer monies through excess charges on phonebills to fund the DSL business and other businesses, including wireless services and long distance services. Known as "cross-subsidization", services that should be funded for by shareholders are instead being charged to customers.
„h Yellow Pages Scam: Verizon also received major financial gains from the shifting of Yellow Pages subsidiary, who¡¦s revenues were used to subsidize local phone service. Yellow Page Advertising is one of the most profitable businesses in America ¡V paid for through higher fees from small business advertisers.
„h Customers paid for a network they will never receive. We estimate that the Company received $2.1 billion from this deregulation, including an additional $1.5 billion in extra tax deductions the Company received from excessive write-offs of the still existing networks.
„h We estimate this cost each household $785, by year end 2002, about $165 in just 2002. Customers are owed refunds.
„h There is ample documentation that this scam occurred in most, if not all of the other Verizon states (including Bell Atlantic and NYNEX). Therefore, we believe there was collusion between the Bell companies to not make public the truth about fiber-optic broadband deployments.
„h Verizon's failure to deploy broadband in the state (and elsewhere) has had a serious impact on the overall economy, as well as harm to the Tech sector and the value of shareholder stocks.
„h Rural Customers have been particularly harmed since the law to deliver them broadband -- like everyone else -- is being ignored.
„h The costs for all services have been incrementally increased through deregulation and snake-oil accounting.
„h The price for services should be declining because the costs have been decreasing --- in PA alone, 3,400 Bell employees have been let go since 1994 --- a drop of 23%, and construction from 2001 is down 36% in the state.
Therefore, we are calling on the State Commission and Attorney General's office, the IRS and the FTC, and FCC, to:
Conduct a Broadband "True-Up":
Step One: We are requesting a complete audit of the Bell's books to determine exactly what happened to the monies collected through deregulation. While we have used due diligence in going through the annual reports, these are closer to works of fiction than documents to be relied on for minute analysis.
„h How much money was collected because of the changes in regulations, including taxes and tax write-offs?
„h How much extra charges on phonebills does this equate to?
„h How much of this excess profit is being charged through higher rates to competitors trying to offer their own services over the Bell networks?
„h How much of this money was spent to roll out ADSL products or other services not related to the Bell's fiber-plans?
„h What fiber-optic services are being offered to residential customers? Was anything wired?
TeleTruth is Recommending:
„h A complete investigation into fraudulent acts. When did the Bell companies know they couldn't build these networks?
„h The Bell company's regulation should reflect its actions and therefore, the company should have the current deregulation plan revoked.
„h An estimated $2.1 should be collected in penalties and refunds.
„h $1.5 billion should be investigated for improper tax write-offs.
„h The state should start proceedings on whether customers should own its own fiber-optic infrastructure, which is built through competitive bidding. This network could be paid for through the current excess rates. It should not be owned by the Bell companies, who have proven to not be trusted with these important matters.
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mglunt
join:2001-09-10
Fredericksburg, VA | reply to NOVA_Guy
Re: It does more then regulate your poop
Sue them for 15 Million, and where do you think they get the money to pay that off? |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| That's fifteen billion...
I suppose they would get the money from their existing operations to pay it off. But they couldn't raise prices without going through a process of applications, etc. with the PUC, could they? And how many of those commissions nationwide would be inclined to allow Verizon to increase their rates? None, because Verizon will be too broke to bribe them this time around... 
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Cox cable: the hallmark questionable business practices and lousy cable service! |
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NOVA_Guy
Obama- Commander in Thief
Premium
join:2002-03-05
·VOIPo
| reply to Archivis
Re: And I thought Cox Communications was bad...
Whoops.... You're right. The figure I'm seeing above is $2.1 billion.... But that still should be enough to pay for wiring the state, or at least a large part of it. (some of the state can probably go without wiring anyways, as I can't think of too many times I've been on trails throughout the Allegheny Forest and really cared about plugging my iPAQ in to check my email... )
[text was edited by author 2003-02-19 15:59:30] |
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Dewi
Premium
join:2001-09-28
united kingd | reply to Archivis
Re: Question
Thanks for your effort! I think that gives enough of a summary for me. I might do as you suggest this evening (I have openoffice at home.)
Thanks again!
Dewi |
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Archivis
Your Daddy
Premium
join:2001-11-26
Earth
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to NOVA_Guy
Re: And I thought Cox Communications was bad...
You also have to keep in mind that this is the money break that they've made SO FAR. They'll continue to get this break until at least half way through the next decade. You're talking at least 3-4 times more then the current figure over the next 10-15 years or so.
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DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| Sorry but not guilty
I am not a Verizon sympathizer but I read Teletruth's report and I'm not convinced of their allegations. I don't see where Teletruth made a convincing case that Verizon promised something they didn't deliver. VZ didn't promise to provide 45Mbps service; they promised only that they could provide it in 5 days from a customer order. And why shouldn't they be able to? At the current rates for 45Mbps service, a customer is going to be payings tens of thousands of dollars a month!!!
Anyway, I didn't see anything in the report that addresses rates.
The bottom line is: I don't see that Teletruth's allegations will stand up in court. I wonder if the PA official who signed off on VZ's deal understood it the way Teletruth does. If so, it's the PA officials who are negligent for signing something that had huge gaping loopholes in it. Either that or Teletruth is simply way off base. |
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