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Comments on news posted 2003-02-22 11:42:56: As we mentioned yesterday, officials behind a new municipal broadband network for the Illinois cities of Batavia, St. Charles, and Geneva, are angered at both Comcast and SBC for a survey being conducted by the companies this week. ..
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Slayer Fan
join:2002-10-26
Canal Fulton, OH
| Will big brother be watching? There was a recent article about a small town in Ky. I believe it was Glasgow. How the local government built their own broadband utility. Basic cable cost $17 per month and cable internet was an additional $21.
Holy Sh-t!! Thats less than I pay for just "basic plus" cable tv.
As far as the quality of service goes I don`t know.
Then one would have to wonder how easy would it be for big brother to watch what web sites you frequent, what tv shows you and you`re family are watching. Is`nt it easy enough now? This could easily get abused.
But on the flip I really don`t give a F-ck. If they want to see what porn sites I go to or what tv show I watch! Let em` | |
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dilettante
join:2002-01-01
Haslett, MI
|  Perhaps there is hope
What is happening mirrors the same thing that's gone on in free-space (radio/television) broadcasting. Fewer and fewer companies hold a greater and greater stranglehold over a growing number of markets. Competition has been minimized almost to the point of nonexistence and we see outfits like Clear Channel growing to a point reminiscent of the old Standard Oil monopoly. These media monopolies are worse because they're powerful propaganda machines, ones that are being used to shape public opinion as we speak.
This is not a partisan issue (Clinton signed the Telecommunications Act of 1996 which enabled many of these evils). Heck, in most important ways I can't tell the difference between the two parties anymore. It IS interesting though that so many people have been programmed to go into a rant in which they spew a large number of knee-jerk insults, calling others things like "liberals" or "commies" and generally suggesting that to disagree with them on even a single point means you support a long list of nasty things they've also been preprogrammed to slur you with.
This of course just demonstrates what I'm talking about.
There seems to be a strong desire on the part of these mega-ISPs to try to turn the Internet into a one-way medium like television, and at best an online catalog so you can order the junk they push on you. This is the real reason they have TOS that discourage operating your own servers or peer-to-peer services... they can't control what you might say!
No, I'm not suggesting that everyone running servers or peer-to-peer nodes are good guys. I'm not advocating stealing music, movies, or software - as a matter of fact I run a very clean operation here in my own home, though I have very little love for the recording industry.
My point is that upload caps are much less about bandwidth hogging than they are about keeping people "barefoot and pregnant."
To get back on-topic I have to say that I love the idea of what these cities want to do. More power to them and I hope they are seen as an example by other municipal operations across the country and the world. I hope they succeed and are able to offer a reasonably priced, decent-quality, and responsive service to their communities. I also hope they succeed in keeping it local. A state or federally run service would be as bad or worse as where we're headed now.
And I will be watching this closely to look for an opportunity to push this concept here at home. I urge others to do the same. | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| THIS IS A FACT They did pin the tail on the Donkey here though:
"The technology local government would use would be obsolete in a few years therefore requiring another bond issuance later."
I think the survey was sneaky.
However,
City's are not financially viable enough to keep up with the changing technology of Broaband and it really sucks that more folks don't realize that.
Hell most city's rely upon the ISP to support the product.. (that smack's of the @home days.. been there.. done that.. no thanks)
and how will they get the funding to incorporate the advancing digital needs of video and internet (video on demand, High Def TV,)
And where will the funding come for Larger projects like VoIP or Telephony.. options that companies like Comcast and ATTBB currently employ?
See cable operators can afford to test those products and launch them cause they have such a large subscriber base that it will pay off but city's are smaller and I don't see where this city owned cable company issue can lead but to cheaper prices for the time being..
Cheaper is not BETTER!!
just means less advanced options for customers.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: THIS IS A FACT WRONG....Read the study.....
The money for upgrades and enhancements are built into the operating costs. They've taken the future into account.
Go back and look
»www.tricitybroadband.com | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| Doesn't explain away the facts. In Tacoma, they have their own Cable Tv system which directly competes w/ 2 satelite cable tv systems and ATT/Comcast.
Now this City owned cable tv package REMOVED it's PPV Sports packages due to costs..
If that is an issue.. where will the funds come from to launch HDTV or Video on Demand.. Them box upgrades aren't cheap.
Technology is expensive...
Just like Tacoma's Click network..
It will be cheaper cuase it won't have the technology to launch..
How about the High spead Internet.. The ISP plans charge for the SIMPLEST things like extra email addresses.. ect..
And customers have to buy their own modems.. leasing is not an option..
No I will pay extra for the Opportunity to have the following services available to me.. which the City owned cable system DOESN'T Provide due to costs (which ofcourse was NEVER REALLY discussed when they talked of STARTING the cable service)
City cable systems don't provide:
Sports PPV packages
Dolby digital surround sound
HDTV
Video on Demand
ISP support (gotta go to the ISP)
Local Telephone via Telephony or VOIP
City cable systems can provide cheaper cable BUT the customers of TACOMA have the HIGHEST franchise taxes and HIGHEST power bills (also owned by the city)
And really a city should dable too much in Private business..
Kinda shady to me..
Just stick to running a Franchise agreement that works and enforce it!
Let's not forget who LET those cable providers OPERATE lines in the first place>>>>
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| CITY OWNED .. A NIGHTMARE.... Let's see..
What does Tacoma CITY own?
»www.ci.tacoma.wa.us/tpu/
Power
Water
Cable
Rail
Now that is a MUTHA Ferking monopoly you Can't escape..
You don't have water and power options other than them so maybe that is why they are SO DAMN expensive..
OH AND THE TAXES...
Somebody got to pay for all this stuff...
I don't see the residents getting no kickbacks.. just government living off the pork rinds!
Check out their bugeted TAXES they recieve from the utilities..
Go to the City website and search with "financial" and "budget"
And remember Where the $$ is coming from.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: CITY OWNED .. A NIGHTMARE.... Again..
Read the study.
FTTH offering cable (HDTV, PPV, VOD), fast internet, and phone. No outsourcing.
Again....PAID FOR ONLY BY USER FEES. IF YOU DON'T TAKE SERVICES, YOU DON'T PAY.
In regards to franchise agreements, with no other cable competition in town except Comcast, they're unenforcable. What, are the cities just going to deny a franchise to the only provider and tell the citizens they're out of luck?
Don't think so and Comcast knows so.... | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| The "Study" "Again....PAID FOR ONLY BY USER FEES. IF YOU DON'T TAKE SERVICES, YOU DON'T PAY." .. said by batageek
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I would assume that they are talking Comparable prices cause if not enough folks want the "advanced" services you could end up paying more cause you are in the minority...
Can't provide cheaper services to a small amount of folks.. that would drive you in the RED..
So folks that want OPTIONS may end up paying less and getting what they want with a BIGGER CABLE COMPANY..
Please.. show me a LOCAL city owned CABLE company that has Technology uppgrades (high def TV or Dolby home theater access.. Video on demand...)
And Voice over IP and Telephony options.. if it were REALLY that cheap to do and that simple then EVERY cable compny would be doing it but instead it would seem DEPLOYMENT is now at a standstill...
A bit more expensive that the cable companies had hoped for?
Franchise Agreements get NEGOTIATED...
Plain and simple and the city can NEGOTIATE a Strong deal..
the City of Sammish negotiated a deal that get's them the Cheapest rates in the State of Washington yet there is NO Competition out there..
Explain that?
If the Franchise is Revoked.. there is ALWAYS DISH.. and that is Competiton virtually anywhere..
And DISh network is pretty cheap so it is not like it would break pocket books.
Satellite is cheaper and offers more choices than city owned cable.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
| | | | | hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD
 ·Comcast
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: The "Study" that is a bit of a broad statement...you are only focusing on click and using that to say all. I would suggest you research All municipal cable entities and see if your broad statements are true..right now you are not using hte correct facts to support your statements about all municipal cable entities.
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God Blesshttp://www.faithwalk.org | |
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octopussy2
@dpliv.com
| Yeah....redstepchild. You sure are ASSUMING a lot. Have you checked out the pricing scales for services in the Tri-Cities?
I would do your research before you go commenting on things you seem to know nothing about. I think "batageek" has given you links to educate yourself on THIS venture a few times and you seem to ignore the information in favor of spewing your own "knowledge" as you seem to know it. Knowledge about Washington,not the Tri-Cities, which I believe is where we are talking about.
If you did your homework we wouldn't have to keep hearing your long diatribes about what you THINK the Tri-Cities will offer. Quit saying what you think we won't offer and probably not for whatever price, eat your crow, and then get back to us.
-Pussy2 | |
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mpelle4456
Say What?
join:2001-07-21
Tacoma, WA
·Advanced Stream
| Pardon me my dear but you're so full it's ridiculous...
I was an @Home customer who got "transitioned" to AT&T and who had the extreme good fortune to finally ditch ATTBI and sign up with Click about a year ago.
I can't address the TV issues because all I get are the basic channels from them - which is enough, I'm not a TV person (it costs $6.87 a month!).
I could care less about having more pay per view channels.
But on the issue of broadband internet, I can comment. I am *extremely* happy with Click. I almost always have a downstream rate in excess of 2,000 kb/s. All for $28 a month! Almost HALF the price of ATT/Comcast, and a third as much more bandwidth. Yeah, that's just a terrible deal!
I haven't looked at the financials for Tacoma Power in a while but last I heard the utility was in the black and going ahead with expansion plans, for Lakewood and University Place.
Just because they aren't a gargantuan behemoth like AT&T doesn't mean they don't have money to provide extra services and offer frills like the big boys.
And the reason for that - which you neglected to mention - the one big difference between Click and all the others, is that Click is a not-for-profit public utility which doesn't have to feed greedy shareholders.
All that's necessary is that a utility break even; unlike Comcast, it isn't expected to pay dividends (and shouldn't - it's public owned!).
I truly think that greedy, monopolistic corporations like Comcast and AT&T are stifling the development of broadband in this country.
The business models these companies use are antiquated; they don't have the intelligence to figure out that they are holding back broadband expansion by trying to wring the last little buck out of their customer base.
If they'd just lower their prices and lift the caps, they'd probably double their customer base in a couple years. And in doing so, they'd encourage the development and use of applications that can only succeed on broadband, like streaming video and VoIP - and that would further encourage wider deployment of broadband.
I thank my lucky stars we have Click in Tacoma. It's the *only* thing keeping AT&T/Comcast reasonably honest in this area - by providing a choice for people in Tacoma and the surrounding area.
Let's face it - if it wasn't for the advent of Click, we'd all still be using 56k modems and surfing 33 channels on TV!
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He who hesitates is lost. | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
|  Click Sucks!
would pay for it HDTV? They don't Have HDTV do they?
********************************************
Sports Packages are not available w/ City owned Cable.
if you did like PPV sports packages you would notice that you only have like 4 options...
And international programming..
not available wth City owned cable
And Tacoma is full of folks that like International programming.
What kind of Alternative international programming is out there but unfortunately CLICK does not provide (c'mon..even Satellite provides some of this stuff!)
»www.internationalchannel.com/pre···etworks/
So I guess for the "Basic" dude.. you got what you want...
But you are not the only person in Tacoma are you.. Lot's of Folks to whom English is not their Primary language.
City owned cable does not provide the Alternative channels they may like.
Big old Comcast does.. they can afford to.
DOBLY DIGITAL is not available in CITY Owned Cable
How about Dolby Digital Dude.. oh that's right.. EXPENSIVE upgrades to current equip that Click can't afford to pay right now.. So you can't get that can you..
but you are just a dude who like's Basic cable..
So city owned cable yet again proves it is GREAT for the here and now but does not have the Subscriber base to support alternative programming and technology upgrades.
How about an internet service that gives you more than 3 email addresses? That's right.. If your ISP through Click has that option..you got to pay extra..
What if you DON'T want to BUY your MODEM.. Is leasing it an issue.. Oh but you have to sign a contract don't ya!
What about if it is 2 am and you internet is down..
Who do you call? Certainly not your ISP through Click.. hours of their Operation are just 8-5pm.. can't afford to have all that extra staffing 24/7 like Comcast can.
FACTs- Harbornet tech support hours
M,T,W,F 9AM-6PM
Th 9AM-5PM
Sat 10AM-4PM
closed Sun.
»port.harbornet.com/html/contact.php
*****************************************************
Pricing.. Hell that is all up to the ISP and what they want to charge for ANYTHING.. even a second trip for a Data outlet..
City owned Click STILL doesn't control that..
And how do you figure cheaper is better?
let's evaluate this...
Most Tacoma Comcast customers are Capped at 1800 down/256 up for 45.95 if they have cable service.
Net-Venture pricing:
»www.net-venture.com/clicksignup/
1MB Family Plan: 1024k download
and 128k upload
5.0mb Web Space
3 POP Mailboxes
Newsgroup Access
Single Computer
(can add up to 4 more)
Email Spam Filtering
Web-Based Email *
$29.95 per mo. (tax incl.)
2MB Family Plan: 2048k download
and 256k upload
5.0mb Web Space
5 POP Mailboxes
Newsgroup Access
5 Computers
Email Spam Filtering
Web-Based Email *
$72.95 per mo. (tax incl.)
(side note.. Notice that you pay harbor net $27 more than Comcast yet only get 248k more a month (SERIOUS JOKE!)
we won't even go into the "family Plan"
And please notice that they are stingy w/ the storage space available.. a measly 5mb..
Comcast at least gives you twice as much per email addy and Webspace..
SO maybe Harbor net is a better value?
Residential option 1
$29.95
$99.00 self-install
1 Mbps downstream (1000)
128 Kbps upstream (1280)
Up to 5 Computers
No Static IP's
Full Backup Dial-up Account
5 mb personal web space
3 email accounts (more avail)
News Server Access
Residential Option 2
$49.00
$99.00 self-install
2 Mbps donwstream
256 Kbps upstream
Up to 5 Computers
1 Static IP avail.
5 Systems On-line
3 email accounts (more avail)
5 mb personal web space
News Server Access
Sir.. you can keep your 29.99 access.. I Surf at least 1700 (1.7 Mpbs) on a regular basis...
I ain't payin no $70 or $99 for jsut a smidgen more...
No thanks!
That is HIGHWAY ROBBERY!.
No way dude.. I say that Click just proved with out a DOUBT that CHEAPER IS NOT BETTER..
It just eliminates your options and removes your value for the $$..
REDSTEPCHILD
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RedStepChild@dslr.net
[text was edited by author 2003-02-26 02:56:40] | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| TRI cities Municipal cable hasn't launched yet. All I see are Proposed statements.
That is NO guarantee...
I WISH I saved the statements Click made on what they wanted to do.
oh and by the WAY your link used CLICK in Tacoma as a reference.
Tacoma, WA n/a 8.3% 32% (refering to penetration rates)
»www.tricitybroadband.com/facts.htm
And the TRI CITIES project "We'll have to have 32.3% of the market in phone, cable, and Internet to break even" (but note they are projecting to have just 34% of the market.... THAT is a very close call to breaking even..
Remember that is 33% of the market.. A LARGE market made of 3 cities.
Who cares if Scottsboro, Alabama has 68% penetration in video.. look at the Market .. 68% is not that many people.
Click doesn't even have 32% of their market and now this CITY municipal is going to be offered in other cities..
CUSTOMER SERVICE:
"five representatives will be fine for TriCity project."
5 folks to answer calls.. OMG!
Now what about the internet.. who will be the ISP?
Will those "5" people support all 3 lines of business?
Man.. I read that link so many times.. just answer these questions by posting links to this website where these answers are addressed.
Technology upgrades.
Where will the money come from to enable technology upgrades such as High Def TV, Dolby home theatre, Sports PPV Packages, Video on Demand?
Sounds like they are offering a "cheaper" cable package with less options.
I STILL have yet to see where this is disputed..
I read the "projected data" and "Just the Facts"
Sounds impressive till you look at an area that has "city owned cable" and you see what those residents are missing out on.
Oh and by the way.. the Real motivation here for them is this.. Business. They want to get the BUSINESS are wired with internet and ate going to subsidize it with Residential cable..
Yes that does bring business but at least make it clear that this is the MAJOR motivation.
How about Internet ISP's.. are they going to have some other ISP company supply that?
The whole webpage is vague but comparing their plan to what they intend on doing (similiar to Tacoma City's Click Model)
then my statements and opinions stay the same as before.
So when you all can point the finger to a LINK in your webpage that shows how they REALLY will be handling the services rather than the Great prices..
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: TRI cities Municipal cable hasn't launched yet. Guarantee? Who guarantees a business? GM shares will never drop. Telco shares will never drop?
Give me a break.
Let's clarify on those penetration numbers:
For Geneva to go it alone (from »66.92.136.59/facts.htm )
34% on video alone
13.2 % on internet
7.5% on phone
These are projected, not break even numbers.
Customer service (phone only no field):
Comcast serves the entire Chicagoland area with (ready) 400 reps. 400 reps for what 5 million people? I think 5 will work fine for a population of 70,000 (if that, if everyone take services).
Video upgrades:
First of all, FTTH not some antiquated HFC system.
Second, (again read the study). Money is built into the costs yearly for continuing maint, unlike the history of AT&T's model. They expect to offer VOD, HDTV, PPV. It's all in the model.
The Utility will be its own Cable, Phone and ISP. No outsourcing. One Utility, 50 plus people serve a small region.
Read the City sites linked to TriCityBroadband.com
They make no bones about the fact that this will draw new business, benefit the citizens in both technology and tax rates, as well as benefitting the existing utilities (electric, water, etc.)
Again, do yourself a favor ......READ! Get informed. Rip the feasibility study apart (all 750 pages). Read the responses to both citizen and business surveys.
Read about the fact that the original study has been checked by another competing firm that concurs with the findings of the first firm. Read the existing FAQ's on the City sites.
READ. READ. READ. READ.
Barring that, I'm sensing a telco or cable employee.... | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| I did read! I read read read and I see see see nothing that says "FEASABILTY STATEMENT"
Can you provide the link so I can read it? Might answer some of the Questions I have.
Cable employee or not does not change the fact that a Video company should provide services that meet needs of it's customers and not just that of the Majority.
I want to see how they are going to see how they plan on launching those "alternative" options and hopefully the feasibility study can provide the answers I seek.
I keep hearing how everybody refers to the fact that the info is "somewhere" yet no one can link to the documnet and paste the specific text here.. The "it's in there" idea don't work.. just show me where..
And I have yet to see a City cable company offering the TECHNOLOGY services they promised to keep up with..
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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octopussy2
@dpliv.com
| Re: I did read! Funny- I agree with you about the fact a cable company should provide services that meet the needs of it's customers.
That's exactly why, in part, the Tri-Cities have taken on this venture themselves. Customers (residential and business) begged for services. AT&T (now Comcast)had refused to give the customers what they wanted. AND the rates for services kept going up (and were just raised again last week without notification). Promises for new services went on for over 6 years. Comcast has yet to meet the needs of it's customers HERE and we deserve a choice. BTW-SBC has been just as bad at making promises it hasn't kept.
Customers surveyed here said they would like to see the govt. offer cable, internet and phone (74% in favor). Residents seem to want this choice here. They have read the material. They have been mistreated by the monopolies which exist and are now being exposed to the ugliness of push polls and negative surveys....even fraudulent surveys. I can see why our residents really do not want to be involved with companies who treat their customers like this. Can't you?
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| You make a compelling argument. I do agree that if the customers are not getting choices they want then they deserve to get it elsewhere..
But then there's always the option of Satellite.
Starting a cable company is difficult.. maintaining one is difficult.. The city has to make ends meet.. there is a lot vested in a project like this..
high speed access I understand the need for it. Especially if a City wants to be viable for Business prospects.
there are benefits to a having Highspeed access and the cable choices you want.
2 years ago virtually no one in my area had high speed internet options.. now it is available almost everywhere.. some things take time..
building a cable system will take time.. but that is your descision.. just make sure the negatives and positives are clearly stated and not "fogged" over..
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| I found those FAQ on the feasability statement but I still want to see the actual report.
"#23. How technologically advanced would the municipal infrastructure be? Would it need to be upgraded 5 years down the line and end up costing more each year?--
--------------
The municipal broadband utility would utilize the most current technology to run fiber-optic cable directly to homes and businesses. The Fiber-to-the-Home/Fiber-to-the-Business (FTTH/FTTB) model ensures that new technology on the horizon (HDTV, streaming video, videoconferencing, etc.) would be available and accessible to every home from the time the infrastructure is built. These new technologies are expected to become more popular during the next several years. It is expected the FTTH/FTTB system will serve users well for in excess of 30 years. Our business plan provides for upgrades and maintenance as a cost of doing business."
»www.ci.st-charles.il.us/Broadban···inancial
I am assuming that this means that they are promising the HDTV and other alternative channels..
I say print this out and keep those FAQ.. see if when the project is all done.. what do you end up with.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| A 3rd party REPORT .. MUST READ IT ALL!! All I can say is this 3rd party report says EVERYTHING that needs to be said about City owned cable companies like "CLICK" and it examines the PROJECT RESULTS with what really is happening.
»www.pff.org/publications/pop9.7g···lick.pdf
Read that and then tell me how this report could be biased..
HTML version from the Washington Policy Organization
»www.washingtonpolicy.org/ConOutP···ork.html
The Click! Network is a prominent example of an ongoing trend. Other municipalities have also expressed interest in moving into the telecommunications business. Local leaders across the state are watching and weighing the Click! Network's performance. If deemed a success, the system will serve as a model for others who may decide to embark on the same path.
This Policy Brief presents an in-depth analysis of where the Click! Network stands today. It compares the promises made when the system started with its actual performance since 1997. The study assesses whether it is effective or desirable for public entities to enter this business and compete directly against existing telecommunications providers. It also assesses the impact of the Click! Network on Tacoma ratepayers and the system's prospects if it continues on its present course. Finally, the study presents policy recommendations about how the system can be improved.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net
[text was edited by author 2003-03-02 05:07:42] | |
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Subhuman
The
join:2001-12-09
Lakewood, WA
clubs:  
| Re: THIS IS A FACT Info from 3 years ago.
Todays reality:Click! is continuing to expand and customers are happy.Future customers are eagerly awaiting their arrival.
1/2 the price of AT&T/ATTBI/Comcast ! That's 50% less !
I suppose now you'll try to tell me that AT&T/ATTBI/Comcast offers 50% more services.Dream on.
And as for myself and many others I'm sure,I can say that the few additional services they DO offer over Click! are not worth mentioning.
For all I care Sports can be completely scrapped or at least made an option.I don't want my programs in Chinese or Russian.I live in the United States of America and I speak,read & write in English.I am however bi-lingual(German) yet I don't see any German programming.Go figure.
Click! will be bringing HDTV as well.May take a bit longer,but it'll come.As of right now I don't care and many others don't either because A:We're happy with TV as it is B:Can't afford to invest in an expensive HDTV to be able to even enjoy that feature C:Add also that AT&T/Comcast only offer a couple(3 I think?) channels in HDTV to begin with.So that's a rather moot point to bring up in this debate.
And don't even bring customer service to this debate because AT&T/Comcast probably have the industrial worlds worst,if even existent, CS!
I'd much rather have a government provided broadband,in this case city municipality,than a greedy,self serving privateer whose only motive is profit profit profit.
I do fancy the thought of the privateer being available,but mainly for competitive reasons.They're the incentive for the city to keep up the pace in updating and offering similar products,but at a much much lower price.
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I am becalmed, lost to nothingWarm weather and a holocaustLeft to die by two good friendsAbandoned me and put to sleepLeft to die by two good friendsTears of god flow as I bleedSo ladies fish and gentlemenHere's my angled dream | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| your own words porve my point "I'd much rather have a government provided broadband,in this case city municipality,than a greedy,self serving privateer whose only motive is profit profit profit.".. said by subhuman..
..........................
That reason you gave for liking Public cable over private cable is the exact reason why the original report I posted suggest that City's should stay out of cable.
"1) Is it efficient? Economists generally agree that government agencies, where valid comparisons exist, are much less efficient than for-profit companies. This is especially true in economic activities involving advanced technology that place a premium on constant change and innovation. Private firms have access to price signals from the market to inform company leaders and stockholders about the long-term health and direction of the organization. The inherent need to remain profitable acts as "an ultimate constraint" on bad decisions because companies "either make a profit or they go out of business." Political scientist James Q. Wilson's comparison of how private and public bureaucracies operate illustrates this point well."
»www.washingtonpolicy.org/ConOutP···ork.html
.............................
Where does the profits from CLick go?
TO SUPPORT THE POWER COMPANY!
NOT towards the Cable tv/ internet upgrades..
profits gained are sent to pay for the eletrical upgrades.
"There have been start-up costs associated with any new business. Since we’re now at the break-even point, we’re starting to send money Tacoma Power’s way. Eventually the plan is this network of cable TV and broadband services will provide incremental revenue to the utility to pay for a network they were going to build anyway."
»www.webtalkguys.com/click.shtml
If they go to UP and LAKEWOOD area.. Are they going to provide ELECTRICAL service on those lines too?
OR are those lines STRICTLY for Cable tv and Internet?
Will they be providing the EXPENSIVE network they have in TAcoma or will it be subpar because it is only being used for Cable TV and Internet?
These are the type of questions I want answered.
And Subhuman the prices are cheaper but how much cheaper than DISH NETWORK..
TEll me a few reasons why you would go with Click over Satellite if Price is your issue.
I know it can't be for the price on the Internet service.
The personal plans are like 1 meg.. I hardly believe that would be good enough for you.. Comcast caps at 1.8megs.
And the Latency.. what about that in regards to CLICK.
Click tech support.. 8-5 M-Sa if you are lucky.. usually 1 or 2 folks man the phones.
Funny my brother and I were just discussing the tech support and speed issues he is having w/ one of the CLICK ISP's.
And if you like the idea of an ISP choice.. Comcast folks in Tacoma can have EARTHLINK as an ISP.. their tech support is pretty highly rated...
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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Subhuman
The
join:2001-12-09
Lakewood, WA
clubs:
| Re: your own words porve my point said by redstepchild  :
"I'd much rather have a government provided broadband,in this case city municipality,than a greedy,self serving privateer whose only motive is profit profit profit.".. said by subhuman..
..........................
That reason you gave for liking Public cable over private cable is the exact reason why the original report I posted suggest that City's should stay out of cable.
"1) Is it efficient? Economists generally agree that government agencies, where valid comparisons exist, are much less efficient than for-profit companies. This is especially true in economic activities involving advanced technology that place a premium on constant change and innovation. Private firms have access to price signals from the market to inform company leaders and stockholders about the long-term health and direction of the organization. The inherent need to remain profitable acts as "an ultimate constraint" on bad decisions because companies "either make a profit or they go out of business." Political scientist James Q. Wilson's comparison of how private and public bureaucracies operate illustrates this point well."
»www.washingtonpolicy.org/ConOutP···ork.html
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Where does the profits from CLick go?
TO SUPPORT THE POWER COMPANY!
NOT towards the Cable tv/ internet upgrades..
profits gained are sent to pay for the eletrical upgrades.
"There have been start-up costs associated with any new business. Since we’re now at the break-even point, we’re starting to send money Tacoma Power’s way. Eventually the plan is this network of cable TV and broadband services will provide incremental revenue to the utility to pay for a network they were going to build anyway."
»www.webtalkguys.com/click.shtml
If they go to UP and LAKEWOOD area.. Are they going to provide ELECTRICAL service on those lines too?
OR are those lines STRICTLY for Cable tv and Internet?
Will they be providing the EXPENSIVE network they have in TAcoma or will it be subpar because it is only being used for Cable TV and Internet?
These are the type of questions I want answered.
And Subhuman the prices are cheaper but how much cheaper than DISH NETWORK..
TEll me a few reasons why you would go with Click over Satellite if Price is your issue.
I know it can't be for the price on the Internet service.
The personal plans are like 1 meg.. I hardly believe that would be good enough for you.. Comcast caps at 1.8megs.
And the Latency.. what about that in regards to CLICK.
Click tech support.. 8-5 M-Sa if you are lucky.. usually 1 or 2 folks man the phones.
Funny my brother and I were just discussing the tech support and speed issues he is having w/ one of the CLICK ISP's.
And if you like the idea of an ISP choice.. Comcast folks in Tacoma can have EARTHLINK as an ISP.. their tech support is pretty highly rated...
Research done by whom?Somebody who obviously has a stake in this.Another profiteer.
A non-profit organization is what's needed for competition.Bottom line is there aren't any greedy pocket's to feed.As for upgrading,let it take a while longer.
As I've already pointed out ATTB/Comcast barely can up the ante over Click!And that at 50% over Click!' prices.
Oh and by the way ... go feast your eyes on this speed test results page and rethink your tactics.Click! quite obviously outperforms ATTBI/Comcast as you can see clearly in those results. »/archive?zip=9···t=Search
I never mentioned I would opt for satellite internet.Pings suck.But in the TV dept. they definately have the edge over ATTBI/Comcrap.
As for tech support,if your sh*t is working you shouldn't need them right?Unlike ATTBI/Comcast where you constantly need tech. support wich is pathetic and practically non-existent to begin with.
Earthlink? Ha! I was on Earthlink many moons ago when they WERE decent.Gone downhill since.Reason?Growth ... to accomodate those greedy pockets.Aha,there's that motive again ... $$$$
Sorry to burst the bubble here,but @ 1/2 of Comcast's price(soon to be even less than that!) and faster speeds with unlimited newsgroups,multiple e-mails the choice is quite clear.
And rest assured Click! is not going to offer anything in additional communities to be served that can't hang with the current trend.Wouldn't sell otherwise now would it.
They can afford to sell it for what's it's really worth because they only money's they aim to gain are those to pay for the services.No profit!
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I am becalmed, lost to nothingWarm weather and a holocaust.Left to die by two good friends.Abandoned me and put to sleep.Left to die by two good friends.Tears of god flow as I bleed.So ladies fish and gentlemen,Here's my angled dream | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| Advance stream is about the only one that has decent prices on Higher speeds.. the other 2 are out of whack.
The report that I quotes was done by a policy council (review their website) that reviews a VARIETY of WA policies from a 3rd party perspective.
Funny.. another city.. different POLICY review board came up with EXTREMELY similar views to the report I originally posted.. AND it was done within the last 6 months on a similar MUNICIPAL owned cable start up (Tri Cities)
»www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=10686
Again another report with valid arguments against Municipal subsidized cable companies.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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ps56k
@enteract.com
| Re: We won't have to put up with them much longer! hi -
Wonder if you are the one test user
over in the GT apartments
next to Beney pkwy ?
Saw the Canopy antenna on the roof -
BTW - you might also post comments
over on the naper forum -
www.napervillebroadband.com
hmm - 6 miles to tower -
seems like a lot,
I'll have to map that...
Phil - | |
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ps56k
@enteract.com
| ok - dragged out the Lisle topo map -
I'm wondering where the other end of the link is located at 6 miles to the NE of your apartment? It looks like maybe the COD tower or the tower on the Spiegal building along Finley?
I would think getting beyond the trees just north of Maple behind Benet would be the tough part -
This would be good to pickup over on the Naper Broadband forum at -
»www.napervillebroadband.com/foru···UM_ID=21
Phil - | |
| demontop
join:2001-08-21
Chicago, IL
·AT&T DSL Service
|  The Un-Asked Question...
Competition vs. monopoly (oligopoly) or Free-enterprise vs. government regulation arguments aside, I think the kernel of the matter lies in how this "21st Century Technology" with such a potential for improving quality of life is implemented with such enormous disparity...in ways that seemingly defy logic, reason and basic economics. Regardless of the misleading, unethical and dubious legality of the survey in question, is it right for the Tri-cities to try and block Comcast or SBC or anybody else while they try and float their own broadband venture? Conversely, should the Comcast's or SBC's of the world be able to kill their competition while still in the womb?
Additionally, and ironically enough, after all the dialogue and controversy about the "digital divide" (which I do believe exists, but on a different level) I find it funny that Batavia, Geneva and St. Charles have been languishing in this broadband black hole considering how their average household income and property values stack up against the neighboring communities and the rest of the state.
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My Paradise includes nectar, ambrosia AND a fat-pipe. | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
| Re: The Un-Asked Question... The outsourcing issue does not allow the cities to keep a hold of the costs and therefore would not happen. These towns have also owned their own electric utilities for the past 100 years for the same reason. Their electric rates are some of the lowest in the state.
It's the same reason franchise agreements are worthless to cities. The common response is "deny them a franchise" until they come around. It doesn't work. The cities have no control of the rates charged to residents or the level of service provided. Because Comcast is the only game in town for Cable (notice no internet or voice service - they're just upgrading the system after 5 years of dancing around the issue) and SBC for voice, they don't really care.
In regards to the survey, it's not the issue of doing a business survey. It's the point that in several cases the "surveyors" have represented themslves as asking the questions on behalf of City Hall or the Mayors or the Aldermen. Citizens have been faked out.
The Cities themselves did surveys on many of the same questions (without the obvious "Should your government subsidise porn" question) months ago.
You're right though about the demographic though. There is cash to be spent on these services, but the incumbents have made little effort to step up to the plate until the cities started making lots of noise. The Cities, though, are "languishing" in a broadband black hole. | |
| moroccanmole
join:2003-02-26
Saint Charles, IL
| Moroccan Mole
The Broadband Initiative in the Tri Cities, what I know of it, is about CHOICE. Sure this is a big step, but the incumbent providers have forced this effort for CHOICE. Empty promises, raised rates without improvement in services, and limited availability, sounds like winning service ATT and SBC!
I am a resident of St Charles and am going to vote yes. Yes I am normally afraid of government involvement in what should be private enterprise, but that has failed us, and general obligation bonds does not mean my taxes go up. | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL | FEASIBILTY REPORT- Where is the complete report? can someone give me the link to the complete report?
I would like to read it.
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RedStepChild@dslr.net | |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25 | Re: FEASIBILTY REPORT- Where is the complete report? What do I keep saying???
READ. READ. READ.. Look on the city sites. | |
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redstepchild
Premium
join:2002-01-04
Birmingham, AL
| READ THIS REPORT!!!!!! »www.pff.org/publications/pop9.7g···lick.pdf
This eport takes a detailed look at Municipals (city's) and owning cable.. who burndon's the costs.. liabilities.. and profiles one of the "great" example's of so called success.. "CLICK"
It was a VERY NICE READ..
Very factual and looks like they did their research! | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
| | tropology
join:2004-09-04
Chicago, IL
| sad Too bad the referendum has fallen again.
Tricities campaign budget $5,000 (+ millions of hours in civic activism)
Comcast & SBC expenses: priceless
Seriously, tho the investment hasnt achieved the goal of launching munibroadband there, I think all parties have gained a lot of experience in the ploitical realm.
I also put it to you that there are some other ways to establish a local broadband entity than the Muni route...
If they have lined up investors as they claim, they should be able to take these next steps... | |
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