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Comments on news posted 2003-04-02 11:02:56: Neither Comcast (at the time AT&T Broadband) or SBC showed much interest in the Illinois cities of Batavia, St. Charles, and Geneva over the years. ..
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX | Sad We will see if Comcast and SBC will keep their promises now. | |
| | DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19 | Re: Sad They made meaningful promises??? Are you sure? What were they? | |
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DrTCP
Yours truly
Premium,ExMod 1999-04
join:1999-11-09
Round Rock, TX
| Re: Sad said by DonLibes  :
They made meaningful promises??? Are you sure? What were they?
As far as I followed this they did not make any concrete proposals. But if they do nothing after this they will have no credibility on their behalf so they better work on bringing broadband services to these cities. If they don't it will be setting an example for other cities to follow and they will lose more on the longer term. What I am saying is that if they are wise they would bring services. | |
| | | | DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| Re: Sad said by DrTCP :
As far as I followed this they did not make any concrete proposals. But if they do nothing after this they will have no credibility on their behalf so they better work on bringing broadband services to these cities. If they don't it will be setting an example for other cities to follow and they will lose more on the longer term. What I am saying is that if they are wise they would bring services.
Why would anyone have credibility for promises you imagined but they didn't make???? This makes no sense.
Judge credibility only on the promises they made and kept or failed to keep. To do otherwise makes no sense. If you're implying that the communities in question voted they way they did on NO promises (but just fear of how badly the government could screw things up) then those communities are likely to be very disappointed. | |
| | | | | havinfun
join:2002-01-29
Schenectady, NY
| Re: Sad I think this comment pretty much implies some sort of commitment:
Andrea Brands, a spokeswoman for SBC, saw things a different way. "What happened here is that the voters voted what is best for them," she's quoted as saying in this Kane County Chronicle article. "No risk of increase taxes. Sixty-two million dollars is a very expensive network, when there is ample service available." "Ample" being left for interpretation . . . | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
 ·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Sad said by havinfun :
I think this comment pretty much implies some sort of commitment:
Andrea Brands, a spokeswoman for SBC, saw things a different way. "What happened here is that the voters voted what is best for them," she's quoted as saying in this Kane County Chronicle article. "No risk of increase taxes. Sixty-two million dollars is a very expensive network, when there is ample service available." "Ample" being left for interpretation . . .
No it's quite clear. "What we offer now to the Tri-Cities is PLENTY... they don't need anymore... and won't be getting it, after all, the voters just voted for the status-quo, no?"
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"When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.) | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Now What? From what was said in a previous thread, it turns out that 2 of the 3 cities involved in this could go on and implement this network against the will of the people. Do they plan to do this? | |
| | sherpaboy
join:2001-07-06
Seattle, WA
| Re: Now What? quote:
....against the will of the people.
Damn! You took the words right out of my mouth!
Basically, this group of citizens wants to impose their will on the people. The want to build out broadband and force people to pay for it with taxes. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Now What? said by sherpaboy :
The want to build out broadband and force people to pay for it with taxes.
I agree... clearly though people are interested in this project... I wonder if the initiative should change its focus on mobilizing these people to financially back this idea with their own money. These people could allow for their land to be dug up to run wires. The local governments could help out by granting easements, rights-of-way and such. The initiative could also act as a non-profit in the process so that overall overhead is reduced. This method still keeps the focus local, but it eliminates any kinds of liabilities that could be incurred by the government.
--
Pissed off at traitorous, ungrateful musicians? Don't just boycott them! Trade their MP3s and really screw them over! And don't forget, 2 out of 3 human shields agree! Saddam really is evil! | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | Re: Now What? Your's and sherpaboy's argument on the use of taxes for the project were proven wrong last week, yet you still continue to use it. I'm disappointed. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Now What? said by JakCrow :
Your's and sherpaboy's argument on the use of taxes for the project were proven wrong last week, yet you still continue to use it. I'm disappointed.
If "proof" is saying the same tired old argument over and over and over again till the thread is closed, then you are correct. However, it has been shown here by people who actually have experience with municipal bonds (myself not included, as I don't have such experience) that this is not a Zero-Risk Venture(TM) as some people are claiming it to be. I just know that government in general is not the right institution for getting this job done, and I wouldn't want my ever increasing tax burden to pay for toys like this.
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Pissed off at traitorous, ungrateful musicians? Don't just boycott them! Trade their MP3s and really screw them over! And don't forget, 2 out of 3 human shields agree! Saddam really is evil! | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
| Re: Now What? said by pnh102 :
If "proof" is saying the same tired old argument over and over and over again till the thread is closed, then you are correct. However, it has been shown here by people who actually have experience with municipal bonds (myself not included, as I don't have such experience) that this is not a Zero-Risk Venture(TM) as some people are claiming it to be. I just know that government in general is not the right institution for getting this job done, and I wouldn't want my ever increasing tax burden to pay for toys like this.
There was quite a bit more than just the beating of drums regarding proof. I'm sorry you're unable to look beyond that perception. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Now What? said by JakCrow :
There was quite a bit more than just the beating of drums regarding proof.
There certainly was. If you recall this, this, this, this, this and this it becomes quite clear that this undertaking is not a zero-risk investment. The fact that the people here who want it can only retort by saying "no its not" doesn't change the facts. The people have spoken and they have said "NO" to this venture. If the supporters of this venture want to convince them to change their minds, they will need to address these concerns.
On the other hand, the people who do indeed want their own separate FTTH-enabled network can always get together, seek out investors and venture capitalists, and do things on their own.
--
Pissed off at traitorous, ungrateful musicians? Don't just boycott them! Trade their MP3s and really screw them over! And don't forget, 2 out of 3 human shields agree! Saddam really is evil! | |
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kevin25a
join:2001-10-19
Livermore, CA
| I find it amusing that people in PA,WA, and CA are discussing this situation like they have any idea what its like to live in this area and have to deal with SBC and Comcast. We who live in this area have been fighting for YEARS for ubiquitous broadband. We live in the suburbs of the third largest city in the US and these companies do nothing to bring broadband here. In fact they use our communities as ammuntion to force deregulation, "If you want us to provide broadband, and spend any money doing it, you WILL deregulate the phone systems in this state". Had it not been for the emergence of wireless access in this area I would STILL be on crappy dial up, and I live in a suburb of over 22,000. These cities have NO broadband options at the moment, and SBC and Comcast are only protecting their future markets and their ability to strong arm the state for their own ends. This missinformation campain has only managed to deny the residents of these communities the broadband access they need. I personally would MUCH rather deal with our local government, than with SBC, or Comcast. | |
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murdok6100
Avatar. Get It, Avatar?
join:2002-06-20
| Re: Now What? said by kevin25a :
I find it amusing that people in PA,WA, and CA are discussing this situation like they have any idea what its like to live in this area and have to deal with SBC and Comcast. We who live in this area have been fighting for YEARS for ubiquitous broadband. We live in the suburbs of the third largest city in the US and these companies do nothing to bring broadband here. In fact they use our communities as ammuntion to force deregulation, "If you want us to provide broadband, and spend any money doing it, you WILL deregulate the phone systems in this state". Had it not been for the emergence of wireless access in this area I would STILL be on crappy dial up, and I live in a suburb of over 22,000. These cities have NO broadband options at the moment, and SBC and Comcast are only protecting their future markets and their ability to strong arm the state for their own ends. This missinformation campain has only managed to deny the residents of these communities the broadband access they need. I personally would MUCH rather deal with our local government, than with SBC, or Comcast.
First of all, saying that people in PA do not know what Its like to deal with Comcast is about as ignorant as you can get. Think for just one moment who serves PA cable needs.
Second, for all you know everyone who your complaining about may have just moved from Chicago, or lived in an SBC area in the past.
Third of all, you SBC folks are not the only ones with problems. I live in a small suburb too, about 40 or 50k (correct me if Im wrong Pnh) people here. A we have plenty of broadband problems. Its comcast, sat. or nothing for alot of us.
I dont have any thing to say about municipal broadband, as PA is a communist state - so I wont be seeing that for a while.
murdok610 | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Now What? said by murdok6100 :
Third of all, you SBC folks are not the only ones with problems. I live in a small suburb too, about 40 or 50k (correct me if Im wrong Pnh) people here. A we have plenty of broadband problems. Its comcast, sat. or nothing for alot of us.
Yea I think that's about right if you add the populations of West Chester Borough and West Goshen Township, of course if you add in East Bradford, East Goshen and Westtown you're looking at about maybe 80K people.
I have to second what you're saying about the options though, Verizon DSL is only available inside the bypass it seems, and Comcast rolled through here almost exactly one year ago. I don't think they exactly took their time here, considering (at least in my neighborhood) they bought out Suburban Cable (which said no cable modems till 2006-2008 at minimum) about 3 years ago and literally restrung all the wires. It also doesn't look like Verizon is planning on any expansion any time soon.
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Pissed off at traitorous, ungrateful musicians? Don't just boycott them! Trade their MP3s and really screw them over! And don't forget, 2 out of 3 human shields agree! Saddam really is evil! | |
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BK3
join:2001-04-10
Geneva, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!
The people would NOT have paid for this by taxes. It would be paid for by bonds, and the bonds would be paid for by subscription fees. NO TAXES WOULD BE USED!!!!!!!!
If you didn't subscribe, then you would pay NOTHING for it!
If you preferred, you could stay with Comcast or SBC.
THERE WAS NO FORCING ANYONE FOR ANYTHING!!!!!
It was all about offering a choice. Now there is no choice. You can take what Comcast / SBC offer, or nothing. In some parts around here that is nothing because Comcast / SBC will not offer services there.
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Intelligent discussion is invited and encouraged. | |
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Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
| Re: Now What? People like pnh102 and sherpaboy are the reason the vote failed in the first place. The voters were deceived, and they were stupid enough to believe whatever lies were fed to them.
Voters are stupid, because people are stupid in general: this is the achilles heel of democracy.
In order to pass this, the voters must be EDUCATED, and that is going to take more than a $3,000 budget.
The 2 cities that can go forward should dedicate some funding for public awareness, and make these voters regret their choice. Fight fire with fire.
And the city leaders should also make this happen in 2 of the cities and wait for geneva to catch up. When everyone sees "Gee my taxes didn't go up?" they will have a hard time holding this against the mayors. | |
| | | | | AuroraJock
join:2003-04-02
Chicago, IL
| Re: Now What? People aren't stupid. People who take the time to go out of their way to vote are usually quite the opposite - educated people who want their vote heard. This network was to be funded by General obligation bonds which are issued to governments because of their taxing power - or their ability to raise taxes to pay down the debt. If I'm not mistaken, the reason why they put something like this on a ballot is to cover their butts if the city has to raise property taxes down the road should the project fail. The majority of people didn't vote yes or no, they just didn't care enough to go out and vote. That alone makes the project questionable. | |
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Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
| Re: Now What? Taxes would go up only if the broadband project utterly failed and essentially went bankrupt. Then the city would be on the line to pay the creditors.
A wealth of evidence exists that indicates that this venture would not have trouble keeping itself afloat. Even if they do not reach their short term goals, the venture would not be a total loss and could survive long enough to pay off the bonds.
There is a small risk, but the potential for a great reward. Even if you do not use the internet, this proposal would help local business cut costs, and it may provide a number of new jobs.
I guarantee you that the specific nature of the risk of general obligation bonds is not what led people to vote against this. Anyone with that level of sophistication could well appreciate the bigger picture of risk vs. rewards.
Tax money would not be sued to pay for this venture, but taxes might go up slightly if the venture were to fail and the municipality would be obligated to pay the creditors. So it would be erroneous to link this venture to a tax increase. The truth is more complicated. | |
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Illiniwek
Go Illini
join:2002-08-19
Draper, UT
clubs:
| Re: Now What? said by Kaltes :
Tax money would not be sued to pay for this venture, but taxes might go up slightly if the venture were to fail and the municipality would be obligated to pay the creditors. So it would be erroneous to link this venture to a tax increase. The truth is more complicated.
I agree that the truth is more complicated. That's why I am arguing that it is not correct to say "It's a bond and therefore has nothing to do with taxpayers." As I said above, people who aren't in finance don't consider additional risk as a cost, but it is a real, true cost.
The other "true" cost that is not readily apparent is that floating the issue reduces the borrowing ability and capacity of the municipality, as well as the credit rating. That cost is borne again by the entire community, not just those using the broadband.
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Oskee Wow Wow! | |
| | | | | | | AuroraJock
join:2003-04-02
Chicago, IL
| Not the specific nature of obligation bonds, but they risk that taxes could go up. The layperson understands that taxes potentially going up is bad. The fact remains that only about 10% of the population came out to vote yes. I haven't seen the numbers, but I'd guess that 10% market penetration is not enough to make this a slam dunk. There is just not enough interest for this network. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Now What? said by KrK :
Projects like the Panama Canal and the Interstate system would never have been built because people at the time didn't see much use for it, thought it couldn't be done, was too expensive, or didn't see how it could benefit them.
Actually, a lot of people at the time of the building of the Panama Canal did see the benefit of shortening voyages to the Pacific by about 5000 miles by building the canal, which is why so many attempts were made to build it, which of course was only successful once Americans took over the project.
As for the Interstate Highway System, President Eisenhower, along with the military saw the need for an efficient transportation network for the purposes of moving military equipment and troops quickly from one end of the country to the other. Incidentally, it was also this vision which paved the way for the creation of what would become the Internet in the late 1960s. Even to this day, governments know that building a highway to a town will immediately bring more commerce and money to that town.
So with regards to these two ideas, there wasn't any kind of pie-in-the-sky idealism involved, they were pursued based on concrete and explicit knowledge of future benefits. Besides, how many major corporations have set up shop in towns that have their own municipal cable system? How many jobs were created? How much money did these systems end up pumping back into the economy? Did towns that did not build their own network cease to exist? It doesn't sound like there was that major an impact.
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Pissed off at traitorous, ungrateful musicians? Don't just boycott them! Trade their MP3s and really screw them over! And don't forget, 2 out of 3 human shields agree! Saddam really is evil!
[text was edited by author 2003-04-03 08:33:51] | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | AuroraJock
join:2003-04-02
Chicago, IL
| Re: Now What? The electoral process is not in question here. It works and it works well. This is a relatively small, concentrated geographic area here that wants broadband. The residents had the chance to vote and they made their choice. I just find it interesting how the proponents are quick to throw around the 40% number when in actuality only 10% voted for it. You could ASSUME the rest of the people who didn't vote would vote along the same lines, but for $60 million dollars, that's an awfully big gamble. It's a safer assumption that the majority of people just don't give a rats ass about it. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD
| said by AuroraJock :
The electoral process is not in question here. It works and it works well. This is a relatively small, concentrated geographic area here that wants broadband. The residents had the chance to vote and they made their choice. I just find it interesting how the proponents are quick to throw around the 40% number when in actuality only 10% voted for it. You could ASSUME the rest of the people who didn't vote would vote along the same lines, but for $60 million dollars, that's an awfully big gamble. It's a safer assumption that the majority of people just don't give a rats ass about it.
Several weeks prior to this vote, one of the city WEB Sites had staff report concerning a RANDOM SURVEY CONDUCTED BY THE STAFFS OF THREE CITIES, that report has now dropped off their sites! The actual survey can be found at:
»www.cityofbatavia.net/projects/B···rvey.pdf
In that report of the survey it was true that about 75% of the survey responders did indicate that they would be interested in a "broadband/combined service". However, what everyone appears to be ignoring was the interesting fact that about the same percentage of responders stated that they were happy with their current service! These two questions were the typical multiple choice survey questions. The next question asked people to use their own words to describe their feelings on the project (Question 19); in that response the overwhelming response was that it was too expensive and there was no need for the project! This caused the staff of at least one of the cities to write to the leadership recommending that the vote not be held! The elected leaders did not follow the recommendation of their own staffs! If you follow all of these numbers, it is certainly realistic to say that only about 10% of the population supported this project! I think there was also information posted on the Tri-City Broadband site that even if this project had been approved, it would NOT have brought service to everyone that was asked to vote on it! I think this service would have been limited to the voters /population living within the area serviced by the city utility companies, so it still would not have addressed the lack of service many were complaining about!! | |
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murdok6100
Avatar. Get It, Avatar?
join:2002-06-20
| said by AuroraJock :
People aren't stupid. People who take the time to go out of their way to vote are usually quite the opposite - educated people who want their vote heard.
Oh how quickly we forget.
HAHA yeah, the educated in FL with the butterfly ballot. Yeah these are the EDUCATED FOLKS.
That may just be the funniest thing I've heard all day.
murdok610 | |
| | | | | | fuzydice
join:2000-12-18
Sunnyvale, CA | "People aren't stupid."
they arent? then why is bush our president? rofl only idiots would vote for the US's first dictator
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[referring to the RIAA...] These guys buy congress people like M&Ms | |
| | | | | vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
| said by Kaltes :
Voters are stupid
In order to pass this, the voters must be EDUCATED
I tottally agree. They didnt know what they had. Not stupid but ignorant. Who knows how many where bitching about comcast and their rate hikes, then turned around and voted no.
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! | |
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Illiniwek
Go Illini
join:2002-08-19
Draper, UT
clubs:
| said by BK3 :
WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!
The people would NOT have paid for this by taxes. It would be paid for by bonds, and the bonds would be paid for by subscription fees. NO TAXES WOULD BE USED!!!!!!!!
If you didn't subscribe, then you would pay NOTHING for it!
If you preferred, you could stay with Comcast or SBC.
THERE WAS NO FORCING ANYONE FOR ANYTHING!!!!!
I'm going to have to pull a small amount of rank with you here BK3. I happen to work with Municipal Bonds and also have a Series 7 license that enables me to sell them. The Municipal Securities Rule-making Board (MSRB) requires that a municipality make a good-faith guarantee for the principal and interest on bond issues, even when they are revenue bonds. That puts ALL of the taxpayers on the hook for them.
In addition, very few bonds are issued as straight revenue bonds. Most are double barreled in order to reduce the interest rate. That means they are a combination of revenue bonds and General Obligation bonds, which are legally backed by the full faith and credit (taxing authority) of the municipality.
Most people who aren't in finance don't consider things like this, but the guarantees provided by the taxpayers is in fact a real cost. The investors will not be left holding the bag if the network goes under.
Personally, I think a municipal broadband network is pretty cool. But I don't think it is fair for an entire community to pony up when so few people will use it. Most people still have no use for broadband and don't want it at all. (Yes, it is true, eventhough most people here wouldn't believe it.)
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Oskee Wow Wow! | |
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See 15 replies to this post | |
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caleet
Radio X - Usradiox.Com
Premium
join:2002-05-29
Middletown, OH
| quote:
The people would NOT have paid for this by taxes. It would be paid for by bonds, and the bonds would be paid for by subscription fees. NO TAXES WOULD BE USED
This was my understanding also. I am disappointed at the voters on this issue.
Ask you friends who live in other areas or states if they have cable Broadband available to them. I bet they answer in the affirmative. It is pitiful that these cities have not been upgraded. I have lived in many areas in other states that do have these options available and have had them for quite some time now.
If you believe that SBC and Comcast are going to work to serve these areas now ... then I have several bridges to sell you if you are interested.
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Charles »www.livexradio.com | |
| | m1k3
join:2002-01-31
Aurora, IL | I don't see why the vote even matters. 60% of the voters wouldn't even have the service so they wouldn't be paying for it so what say do they have in the matter? | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Now What? said by m1k3 :
I don't see why the vote even matters.
It matters because a significant amount of public money was going to be at risk. If this initiative needed no public financing of any sort (which ALL comes from taxes), then no vote would be needed.
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Pissed off at traitorous, ungrateful musicians? Don't just boycott them! Trade their MP3s and really screw them over! And don't forget, 2 out of 3 human shields agree! Saddam really is evil! | |
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BK3
join:2001-04-10
Geneva, IL
·AT&T Yahoo
| Its not over yet. Many referendums fail to pass the first time they are offered. This was no exception. I fully expect this to show up again next year. We are now more knowledgeable about what lies before us, and will be better equipped for the next bout.
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Intelligent discussion is invited and encouraged. | |
| | mjcrocket
Mjc
join:2000-12-02
Abingdon, MD
| Re: Its not over yet. said by BK3 :
Many referendums fail to pass the first time they are offered. This was no exception. I fully expect this to show up again next year. We are now more knowledgeable about what lies before us, and will be better equipped for the next bout.
With inflation running around 4% a year; this year's proposed cost of $62 Million will be in the neighborhood of $65 Million next year. If the voters this year did not approve the cost, how can you expect them to support a project that will be much more expensive a year from now? By the way, I haven't seen anything indicating how many bonds (dollar value) the supporters of this project were willing to purchase with THEIR OWN MONEY!! | |
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ib50MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI
| Just a thought... Deploy the fiber in one or two of the neighborhoods that were ignored by the cable and telcos. After those residents get a taste of real broadband and the word spreads around, the rest of the city residents will be down at city hall, pounding their fists on the mayor's desk, demanding fiber deployment in their neighborhood.
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Earthlink/DirecWay SRS | SatMex 5-990 | |
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BK3
join:2001-04-10
Geneva, IL
| Re: Just a thought... This has been discussed and is a possibility in some places.
Especially in the business sections that can't get broadband via Comcast or SBC.
[text was edited by author 2003-04-02 11:45:38] | |
| AuroraJock
join:2003-04-02
Chicago, IL
| Good job by the residents The residents seem to have done a very good job with pushing this. It looks like the voter turnout wasn't that good though. 40% seems like an artificial number considering that only 6500 people out of 85,000 actually voted for it. It seems the majority of people in the area couldn't care less about the network or not. | |
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See 23 replies to this post | |
jonnyzor
join:2002-07-28
San Jose, CA
| Good for them I am totally happy to hear that the citizens rejected the proposal. When will these people ever learn that the problems in life can never be solved by the government. What ever the government gets their hands in always turns into disaster. Comcast and SBC can do a much better job that the local governments can. If this thing past, the government would totally be in the red and they would have to raise rates or taxes in order to offset the differece. | |
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See 12 replies to this post | |
Kaltes
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Los Angeles, CA
| Fight FIRE with FIRE This is my idea: since SBC/Comcast rely on lies and misinformation to get their way, and evidently people gobble it up, how about for next year you fight fire with fire.
On the factual issues, take the high ground as always, but introduce in new elements which we will call 'negative ads.'
Tri-cities would smoke Comcast/SBC if they ran ads demonizing them as anti-competitive monopolies who will raise prices, cut corners on service, and generally screw the locals.
Illustrate this by telling horror stories about SBC/Comcast from other places in the country. Tap into the anti-big-business mindset of the people, and make appeals to emotion over and over, casting SBC/Comcast as the predatory evil bully/thief while Tricity is cast as the underdog, the knight in shining armor, and the robin-hood-esqe savior of the masses.
You see, fighting misinformation and appeals to emotion (Like equating tricity to taxpayer funded porn) with pure reason and logic won't work unless you educate the masses, and that would be too expensive.
To achieve victory, you have to tap into the irrational side of the voters and not merely concede this arena to SBC/Comcast, who relied on it heavily in obtaining victory.
Tricities needs to get off the ground fast, so that when it brings huge benefits and exposes the SBC/Comcast duopoly for what it is, municipal broadband can enrich the lives of citizens in other parts of the country! Hopefully my part! | |
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See 16 replies to this post | |
Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:
| Do it Bush style. So Bush started a war stating Iraq was not conforming to a U.N. resolution. But the U.N. votes not to go to war over and over again. But Bush goes to war and most people in this country are allright. Now if you are going to install broadband without approval then that's terrible. Is that how things work nowadays?
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Militarily speaking its only fair to say that Cobra Commander is a world class bafoon - Destrohttp://maxolasersquad.com | |
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See 31 replies to this post | |
ib50MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI
| Unbelievable! Just the mere presence of municipal broadband would have kept Comcast's and SBC's prices reasonable so everyone would have benefitted whether they subscribed to the municipal system or not.
Obviously, the "No" votes were cast out of ignorance.
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Earthlink/DirecWay SRS | SatMex 5-990 | |
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edhodges
join:2003-02-20
Saint Charles, IL
| Pondering last nights results... When I joined this issue back in January, it was difficult to find any information about this issue other than that the cities were interested and had completed a feasibility study. I attended city council meetings in all three cities and spoke at two of them. My interest was and still is the businesses in this area. Regardless of what I think about the things SBC and Comcast have been saying, the bottom line is that both companies are ignoring the businesses in this area. Their publicly stated policy toward business services is "We will provide them whatever they are willing to pay for."
Ok, let's look at that for a minute. The vast majority of business locations in St. Charles are not supported by DSL currently. The vast majority of business locations in Batavia are not supported by DSL currently. Only about 75% of the business locations in Geneva are supported by DSL. That takes care of SBC.
AT&T and now Comcast are not providing Cable Modem to businesses currently. Comcast has stated that they will begin offering Cable modem service to businesses sometime in the future. Most businesses will not choose to use Cable modem though, even if it is available. That covers Comcast.
So, alternatives for business in those areas not covered by DSL are as much as 7 times more expensive. T1, FRAC T1, DS0, etc are billed out at what the market will bear. If there is only one alternative in a market the market will bear a great deal.
I'll provide an example. My business is located just over 11,000 feet from the Central Office Switch in Geneva. My ISP is Speakeasy and the backbone provider is Covad. I have SDSL service at 768Kbps. I pay $174 a month for that service. If I were 15,001 feet from the CO and wanted to procure 768Kbps both ways, I would have to pay roughly $750 a month. If the Tri-cities Broadband initiative had gone through I could have procured 768Kbps both ways, plus local and long distance telephone service for about what I'm paying now for just SDSL. I could locate my business anywhere in the Tri-cities area that is served by City Electric service which means my office could be across the street from my home which is 25,000 feet from the CO.
There are over 4700 small and medium businesses located in the Tri-cities area today. If each of those businesses could pay less for the same level of service they would do it. That's the nature of running your own business. If they could pay roughly the same amount each month and get more, they would do that as well. That then becomes what the market will bear.
Notice now how I have said nothing about bringing in new business to the area. I'm not smart enough to predict that a utility such as this would be incentive for new business to move here. But I can say with some certainty that those businesses that are already here would embrace this utility.
Bottom line on the election yesterday... Look at the results and ask yourself who gained the most. I didn't lose anything last night. I still have the same limited choices for my business and my home today that I had yesterday. SBC and Comcast didn't take anything away from me or from any resident in the Tri-cities. So who won? If I didn't lose, does that mean there was not a winner? Well, there were winners. SBC and Comcast shareholders, executives, board members and employees won. And they thank you from the bottom of their hearts and quarterly statements for choosing to stay with the status quo.
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The worst part of being a pessimist is being proven right. | |
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thongsai
join:2002-07-04
Santa Rosa, CA | stupid people y would u vote no to cheap and very fast internet?? they pay alot now but the long run is very good... damn sbc and comcast had really good advertising i guess | |
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See 18 replies to this post | |
dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ
| sigh All that plastering advertising money could have gone into network upgrades or a rate increase delay. gotta love big business. they KNOW that the muni plans would kick their butts in speed/service/price. who would want 10000/10000 for $40/mo when you can have comcast pro 3500/384 for $95/mo
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
|  Once again, the Sheeple Cave in to scare-tactics
Suckers.
Now, the informed and forward thinking citizens have their futures denied by the lies of the big monopolies.
Well, there are other ways to fight back. Starting with immediate and strong PUC demands on the evil empires.
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"When the day comes that anyone can bend our country’s laws and lawmakers to serve selfish, competitive ends, that day democratic government dies" -- Preston Tucker, 1948 (Yep, it's dead.) | |
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linicx
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2002-12-03
United State
·CenturyLink
| What did we forget? We don't like change; we are suspicious by nature; we fear that which we do not understand.
The biggest liars in the universe are politicians, phone companies and cable companies. They will all tell you anything you want to hear and get your vote.
The Tri-Cities Citizens group did a damned fine job for 20 people, 60 days, and a limited budget. Bravo!
The United States has 8% of the world's population and 70% of its lawyers. The people that make the decisions for us do not live in the real world; are not forward thinking; give zero thought to the consequences of their actions; have a more income than good sense; and they reached their level of incompetence many years earlier.
This is why we need to pay 500+ people in Congress more than $100,000 each per year, plus perks, to manage the affairs of 50 states, and its possessions.
When I was a child my mother used to say, "If you can't listen, you have to feel." The good folks in the Tri-Cities will be "feeling" the foolishness of their decision soon enough.
To the mayors of those cities, I have this to to say: Y'all all been bamboozled by a snake oil salesman. DSL and Cable are not the only forms of Broadband service that exist, and they are not the only forms of Broadband that are on the drawing board now. Look upward and sashay forth. The sky is not the limit, but it's a great place to find real TV programs at one-fourth the cost of cable. And its crystal clear.
Dish-TV is just one more scheme. It's cable in disguise and twice the cost. Been there, done that, too. $25 a month will get me all the television shows I can watch, HBO, MAX or Showtime plus all the foreign news and music I want.
The only reason we pay high prices for low quality is because we put up with it. Dare to make a difference.
Cheers!
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| devicenull9
join:2003-01-20
Saint Charles, IL | Amusing Fact I heard just recently that if the 40% of the people who voted in favor of it had subscribed to the service, it would have paid for itself. | |
| | Beeper
Part Of The Problem
join:2001-09-27
Dayton, OH
clubs: | Re: Amusing Fact They'd rather it be built with OPM. | |
| devicenull9
join:2003-01-20
Saint Charles, IL | Why St. Charles Sucks we have spoiled rich kids and people who build multi-million dollar houses and have driveways filled with sports cars... and then they are happy with AOL.
this dismal berg makes me ill | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
indigo
join:1999-08-22
Covina, CA | Appropriate quote | |
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Re: Now What?