rugby
I think I know it all.
VIP
join:2000-09-26
Camby, IN
 ·Comcast
 ·Callcentric
| Re: So I crawled out from under my rock last night
The problem here seems to be gigantic. It seems that contracts are extremely 1-sided against the consumer in this regard. Basically there are NO protections for the consumers against changes in the TOS/AUP. Companies can change their policies to whatever they want to whenever they want to, and they have the lawyers to back them up.
It's going to be a giant bloody war between content providers and ISP's over bandwidth. People want to download movies/music, but ISP's want to cap them. Bandwidth is gold now, and somebody's sitting on a fat chest of it and won't let it out. |
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vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
| Caps = Crap
I cannot and will not stand for caps. I will be a vonage user very soon, and I download movies and Linux OSes all the time. Thats what Broadband is for. Stop being greedy, upgrade the network and call it a day
...wheres the money going to come from?
The CEOs 10,000,000 per month salary.
The BONUSES paid to the AT&T ceo could have made countless telephone and network upgrades to FIBER!!!
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! |
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Vericima
Beautiful But Deadly
Premium
join:2003-01-07
Manchester, CT
| It seems our government has the same problem, they all complain that there is not enough money for vital programs, there ar budget cuts all over the place. But that doesn't stop them from voting to raise their pay. this crap needs to stop all together.
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AHHH! You're wasting CPU cycles, Go crunch something! |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
 ·Site5.com
 ·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
|  Bandwidth isn't free
The days of the unlimited internet are over. I could see this problem coming up over six years ago. Today, it doesn't suprise me at all.
I have worked in the ISP industry and I have seen the bandwidth hog in action. The cost of bandwidth is high. There have no reports as to the true cost of bandwidth. All I can give are the costs to the ISP and they are not pennies on the gigabyte like some people would have you believe.
I don't mind caps so long as they are intelligently established. Offer 30 gigabytes a month, and that should be more than enough for a majority of broadband users. I consider myself a power user and I don't go over 24 gig in a month. I am not saying people don't go over that amount. If so, then offer .50 cents a gigabyte.
There are undoubtedly people that won't stand for caps. In the next couple years, all ISPs will be moving to caps. I am sure a couple ISPs will stay with unlimited. Their success or failure has yet to be determined.
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal |
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untroubled1
Redneck Dawg
Premium
join:2001-12-21
Omaha, NE
|  So, isn't the 256/3000 caps supposed to keep the network from becoming overloaded? If I were to upload a 40meg file in 20 minutes as opposed to 60 minutes, what puts more burdon on the network? A short burst or a prolonged load. Call me a bandwidth hog I guess. I upload 15-20GB a month but download very little. Then let's consider when posting to newsgroups that only half makes it to the servers. You still get charged for using the useless bandwidth, lol.
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A Ping In Time Saves Nine (9)Ping Pong |
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Hayward
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL
| Yeah but what if you don't stop after that 40MB files and instead use the same hour to do 120MB.
I am not saying you would, but there are plenty who would, and thats the problem.
Too many don't see speed as a convenience, but instead something to be used to the very last bit constantly.
--
»haywardm.com (Hayward's Key West) |
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wolfox
Gentle Wolfox
join:2002-11-27
Dunnellon, FL
| Vote With Your $$$'s And Feet
I had 56k dialup with a local ISP. I went with them because they had #1) A HUGE huntgroup. #2)"Super Modems" that supported my X2 and V.90 USR. (That was smokin' back then in the day) They advertised their service as being completely unlimited. They only required that you be actively using your account in the time that you are logged in. So, no pingbots or open e-mail clients were counted as being "active". Fine I can deal with that. I sign up, send my check, and then happily go home.
For 2 months the service was excellent. My E-mail always works, never had a busy signal, they were a model ISP for a local gig.:) Then one day...my login does not work. I call up, "Yeah, my password's rejected by the server, there is a good chance this is not user error." Turns out, that "unlimited" access is just that, but you could only use their modem pool for 8 hours a day.
I asked then and there at that point "What part about unlimited access is suddenly no longer unlimited access?" To which they had no clear answer. Right there on the spot I cancelled my account. It was no big deal to me when another ISP is just down the road. I signed up with a nationwide provider after that, and they advertised, and GAVE unlimited access. I held onto them until DSL broadband was available in my area 3 years later.
Now, this anecdotal story sorta has a point, but only if the conditions are right for it. If my broadband ISP suddenly were to cap me - I would bail. I signed on for Unlimited, 24/7-365 service, I *pay* for that level of access, and the moment they torque a cap on it I am gone. Therein lies the problem...where do you go when the only viable broadband solutions in your area are all capped???
It's a bad Idea(tm) in my opinion. It will just hamper the growth of broadband technologies and slow the roll-out of future technologies. The few people left, still die hard users - will be left to foot the bill all by themselves. Thus, raising the rates for available services, as limited as they are, across the board...
Oh, and the ISP I moved away from collapsed within 6 short months after "capping" the dial-up modem pool to 8 hours a day...Once a week the cops go through the building and pick up the vagrants that squat there.
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Northwest Arkansas' ONLY all techno Internet radio network, powered by SBC DSL! |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | reply to Nightfall
Re: Bandwidth isn't free
It's the "speed" that costs though, not the number of bits transfered across the "speed". |
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localisp-guy
@rr.com
| reply to Nightfall
Bandwidth may be less expensive for the big ISPs, but for the medium and smaller guys it is not cheap. To get cheap bandwidth in Los Angeles it is about $100/meg for 30 megs. A DS3 ran 40 miles to a rural area is ~ $5,000 a month. Rackspace in a datacenter in LA to get that cheap bandwidth is about $1,000/month. So were up to $9,000 a month. That is $300/meg.
This is obivously before hardware (which would be at least 50K for servers, routers and related equipment to bring good service to customers) and staffing costs (technical support and operations). If you paid the 50K over 3 or 4 years, that would add at least 1K per month. Tech support will run at least 5K a month for two decent support guys. Operations will cost another 6K at a minimum. Figure you have the office and other overhead of at least 2K. Now we are at $23,000 per month for 30 megs. That's $766/meg. At a 10-to-1 that is $76/meg of cost per user-per-month, with the ability to handle only 300 customers and provide excellent service. To earn a 20% profit margin you would have to charge $91 a user and you would earn $4,500 a month profit.
Now these numbers can clearly be moved around a bit here or there, but the point is that bandwidth and related costs are not cheap - even more so for the smaller guys. If we want to be able to use a meg sustained all the time, we need to realize that it could be costing the ISP over $700 a month for that meg... this is why caps must exist in order for the companies that provide good service to be able to stay in business. |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | You're talking about a colo environment though, not connectivity. |
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wolfox
Gentle Wolfox
join:2002-11-27
Dunnellon, FL
| reply to Hayward
Oh yeah, see I work "kind-of/sort of" for the ISP side of things, being a support tech for a local University. It was not the concerns of the then fledgling RIAA/DMCA that actively made us seek out "Kazaa" "Napster" and "WinMX" users....it was the abusers. These programs have the capability of throttling the available bandwidth to them to more than sane levels. All it took was *one* person using one of these programs without setting a throttle - to destroy the connectivity on a whole floor of Engineering Hall.
The smart kids let it "trickle in" setting like, 1/100th of the available bandwidth for use at a time. You still get it plenty fast, and best of all, you do not lag and knock mission critical services off the air for the entire campus. Smart, considerate, and deliberate use of any technology is the responsibility of us all. It makes lives easier for other users and the administration.;) Mostly in managing the "pipes" and maximizing the use fairly across all users. We do not restrict the amount of "use" any one or group of persons has here on campus, giving them in effect, "All you can eat" - but please do consume in a manner that shows that you have a working brainstem.;)
I do not know how it is out there for the rest of the world, agreed, bandwidth is NOT CHEAP. We have a few OC level lines coming into the place and it is switched all over campus. We are not at all charged on the "byte" like a metered service. What KILLS us is the cost of having *available* bandwidth. We get charged the same if not even one ATM cell routes out of the place, or in. But 6000 students + Faculty/Staff can certainly eat alot. And to provide the best possible service, we have to balance demand against a set width of "pipes" going in and out. That's where the money comes into the picture - and leaves quite quickly too.;)
--
Northwest Arkansas' ONLY all techno Internet radio network, powered by SBC DSL! |
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djrobx
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
·PHONE POWER
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·AT&T CallVantage
·Time Warner VOIP
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Nightfall
quote:
In the next couple years, all ISPs will be moving to caps. I am sure a couple ISPs will stay with unlimited. Their success or failure has yet to be determined.
I've been hearing that for at least a couple years. Hell, I was hearing that phone companies were going to drop unlimited local calling due to BBS usage fifteen years ago and it never happened. 
I agree with you though. I don't mind REASONABLE metered usage. The trouble comes when they decide that 80% of their user base is using less than 5GB per month and therefore your 20GB will cost you $250/month because you do something other than check your email.
Bandwidth isn't pennies on the GB but it's not dollars on the megabyte either. All you have to do is look at the pay news services (Easynews, etc) which are more or less in the business of providing raw bandiwdth for a profit. They're able to make money on 6GB for $9/month while maintaining servers, and there are better deals out there.
Another problem, at least in the DSL world, is that the phone company is taking the lion's share of the revenue, while the ISP has to pay for bandwidth out of their small margin. I've read that ISPs only make $10-$15 on a typical residential DSL line. Since that small margin must include support and bandwidth costs, I assert that bandwidth CAN'T be as expensive as some people make it out to be, or there would be NO companies in the business of being ISPs. That margin clearly can't cover bandwith abusers, but it should be possible to create a reasonable pricing structure for power users.
-- Rob |
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Tekkanano
Premium
join:2002-03-02
Alexandria, VA | Oh yeah, I hate unlimited and love full-time!
I like the way my ISP worded their DSL service "Full-time Internet access - Unlimited access". Ain't that sweet! |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to djrobx
Re: Bandwidth isn't free
quote:
Bandwidth isn't pennies on the GB but it's not dollars on the megabyte either. All you have to do is look at the pay news services (Easynews, etc) which are more or less in the business of providing raw bandiwdth for a profit. They're able to make money on 6GB for $9/month while maintaining servers, and there are better deals out there.
Just a sidenote. 
Sure there are better deals out there, but with other costs involved. Some may not be as fast, have more downtime, and so on. I could see ISPs popping up that are higher quality for a higher price. I know I would put my money toward those.
I see the same thing when it comes to cheap webhosting. I see people offering $10 for a year of service for basic hosting. Then people bitching it is down all the time or has crappy service.
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal |
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lazarus_
join:2002-08-31
Resolute, NU
| reply to wolfox
Re: Vote With Your $$$'s And Feet
Just look at Australia all the ISP's cap their services and now the people singing up for broadband has dropped. I have broadband to play online, download demos download video clips off IGN and I also like to download anime and Video game/ anime OST (all un-licensed in North America) I have an average download of 40GB a month and a upload of 20GB a month. On the account I have now w/ my isp they say in the contract that I can only download 10GB a month and upload 5GB a month and anything over that I get charged 10$ a GB. So far they dont have a Transfer counter available to the public site so they don;t charge extra yet. But once they do I probably will end up cancelling my account and using school and work to download all my goodies
ISP's will be advertising 40$ a month for their service but neglect to mention the "hidden fees" in advertisements. This will result in bills double or triple of what people were expecting if they are un-aware of what a "bit cap" is.
I was with Bell sympatico last year and left because I racked up a 200$ bill the month they started to impose a bit cap. I never knew about the cap until they had the nerv to phone all angry that I didint have the 200$ in my bank acc. for them to take. I laughed at them, asked them if they would remove the over charge and just take the regular monthly fee. The man said no (until I said I wanted to cancel my account w/ them). I still cancelled the account and will never deal w/ that ISP again. |
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Lexion
join:2003-02-03
Yonkers, NY
| Different perspective
The way I see it is this:
There are two levels of general broadband:
Let's call it a Personal and Business
As we all know Business connection is very pricy and the more you want the more YOu can get.
The personal connection is not that fast but pretty cheap.
Going back few years, Personal connection was unlimited, and so is Business connection (Most of the time)
Now, moving to the present times:
Personal connection is getting faster, and people expect to pay flat rate for UNLIMITED connection
Well, as personal connection gets closer to business connection, why businesses have to pay soo much more than regular personal connection.
Telcos, in order to keep getting more money and to be happy with businesses, inpose caps, limits, to show that personal connection is cheap because of all this crap.
This way they still get lots of money for business connections and they keep businesses happy(that's where telcos make the most money) and where regular users are getting screwed.
that's my opinion though.
Hope You like it. |
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garagerock
Premium
join:2002-06-14
Louisville, KY
| Take your caps and stick em!
I will not subscribe to any service or company that decides to throttle my bandwidth, period.
If Company X has issues with their users, they need to go find them as everyone has an IP address. This shotgun approach to business/life is getting really f*cking old-let's make everyone criminals/bandwidth hogs!
I will not give one penny to any company that decides arbitrarily that I'm using too much of their pipe. Tough sh*t! You advertised "unlimited, always on!" so now you're stuck with me. Otherwise, you are guilty of false advertising. |
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Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
·Site5.com
·AT&T Midwest
·Comcast
| reply to wolfox
Re: Bandwidth isn't free
said by wolfox  :
Oh yeah, see I work "kind-of/sort of" for the ISP side of things, being a support tech for a local University. It was not the concerns of the then fledgling RIAA/DMCA that actively made us seek out "Kazaa" "Napster" and "WinMX" users....it was the abusers. These programs have the capability of throttling the available bandwidth to them to more than sane levels. All it took was *one* person using one of these programs without setting a throttle - to destroy the connectivity on a whole floor of Engineering Hall.
Working as a network admin in college myself, I feel your pain. Luckily enough, I didn't have this problem back in 1997. Napster was coming on strong, but it wasn't as popular back then as it would be the later part of the year. The college had a ton of problems with abusers. It took only 15-20 people to saturate a T3 in bandwidth.
quote:
The smart kids let it "trickle in" setting like, 1/100th of the available bandwidth for use at a time. You still get it plenty fast, and best of all, you do not lag and knock mission critical services off the air for the entire campus. Smart, considerate, and deliberate use of any technology is the responsibility of us all. It makes lives easier for other users and the administration.;) Mostly in managing the "pipes" and maximizing the use fairly across all users. We do not restrict the amount of "use" any one or group of persons has here on campus, giving them in effect, "All you can eat" - but please do consume in a manner that shows that you have a working brainstem.;)
The problem that I had were students not giving a crap. Those were the ones the new admins after I left had to restrict. Most of the campus is now restricted due to abuse. The RNS (resident network support) regularly puts on programs trying to teach students about bandwidth and the importance of regulating it. Most just don't care.
quote:
I do not know how it is out there for the rest of the world, agreed, bandwidth is NOT CHEAP. We have a few OC level lines coming into the place and it is switched all over campus. We are not at all charged on the "byte" like a metered service. What KILLS us is the cost of having *available* bandwidth. We get charged the same if not even one ATM cell routes out of the place, or in. But 6000 students + Faculty/Staff can certainly eat alot. And to provide the best possible service, we have to balance demand against a set width of "pipes" going in and out. That's where the money comes into the picture - and leaves quite quickly too.;)
Excellent post by the way!
--
My Domain
Nightfall's Hockey and Life Journal |
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hndrcks
Consider Alternatives
join:1999-11-15
Silver Spring, MD
·Verizon FIOS
·RCN CABLE
| Maybe caps that aren't caps...
It seems to me the big $$ problem for the ISP is capacity during peak hours - perhaps if they developed a method of capping throughput during peak loads, then letting it go wide open again during the wee hours, it wouldn't hurt so bad. I noticed a "I download Linux" post farther up - and certainly, this is what broadband is for - but maybe not necessarily at 5:00 pm on a Friday afternoon.
So maybe the unlimited downloading is from, say, 1:00 am - 6:00 am, and the rest of the time is subject to a cap. I could live with that, assuming prices stayed stable and the upper limit during peak time wasn't set at some ridiculous value. |
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myname1
join:2002-07-28
Peoria, IL
| reply to garagerock
Re: Take your caps and stick em!
Well I for one won't give in to these "Nazi" tactics! I PAY $50.00 a MONTH for my broband and I better get the unlimited service I pay for (I live in the US and get cable internet)and also what THEY ADVERTISE or I can take my case to court and sue my ISP for FALSE ADVERTISING......I am sure a judge would see it as such also!! |
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