ThirdShifter
Premium
join:2002-03-16
Vernon Rockville, CT | Comcast would be very happy
Die comcast! die! |
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succinctly put
@207.99.x.x
| Rolling my own
This is why I am now 'rolling my own' GNU/Linux iptables based router. It will look like a single computer no matter how they try to analyze the packets. Even down to the single MAC address.
Good thing I live in NJ where we don't (to my best knowledge) have any S-DMCA proposals yet.
And if/when we do, as others have said, they'll have to pry my NAT router out of my cold dead hands. |
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hescominsoon
join:2003-02-18
Brunswick, MD | so far this is easy to defeat..do not let NAT decrement the counter..and use a firewall(either in the NAT box itself or the clients) that block OS fingerprinting..problem solved.
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God Blesshttp://www.faithwalk.org |
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danc694u
And Your Point Is?
join:2002-01-10
Moody, AL
|  I'm glad
My provider encourages networking within the household. At no extra charge.
Hell, they'll even send a tech out to set it up. They charge for that 
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A bird doesn't sing because he has an answer. He sings, because he has a song. |
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scavio
Premium
join:2001-07-14
Melmac
clubs:  
| They need to make up their minds
If they are going to cap me, then they better not worry about how many computers I have. I pay for 30GB/10GB a month@ @ 3000/256, and I can stomach that. But at that point I feel like I am paying for the connection and data and that's all. It costs them no money whether I have 1 computer or 10 computers hooked up to that connection. Many of us are smart enough to circumvent this but most people are not, and it doesn't seem fair to screw over those people. Next they are going to try to charge me per app that utilizes the connection as well. |
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Kylemaul
Lovin' My Firefox 1.5.x
Premium
join:2001-03-30
North Port, FL
clubs:
 ·Verizon FIOS
| reply to hescominsoon
Re: Rolling my own
Errrrrrr....could you dumb your post down a little for us poor novices? How do you determine if your NAT router has the capability to disable decrementing a counter? And what is decrementing and what is 'the counter'?
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'The tighter the RIAA squeezes their fingers, the more stars and systems will slip through their fingers.' |
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DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19 | I think the reference to decrementing the counter was a reference to TTL. But that's not how Bellovin's technique worked. |
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amenite
The Soylent - It's People
Premium
join:2002-11-21
Ridgewood, NJ
clubs:
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to Kylemaul
said by Kylemaul  :
Errrrrrr....could you dumb your post down a little for us poor novices? How do you determine if your NAT router has the capability to disable decrementing a counter? And what is decrementing and what is 'the counter'?
Don't know what routers might allow you to change the ip header info, but once you read the article the idea is pretty straight forward, the IP header info contains an ID string, which is [often/usu.?] assigned in incremental order, like a counter. Knowing the OS, how it handles the numbering, and analyzing the IP id can give you some idea of the hosts behind the NAT device.
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Time is an abstract concept invented by carbon based life forms to monitor their constant decay.-Thunderclese |
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averagedude
join:2002-01-30
Mesa, AZ
 ·Cox HSI
| Good 'Ol Days
I remember when the TV cable guys would try to "count" how many TV sets you had by using signal bleed. If they couldn't, they would use an old trick - disconnect your cable, you call for service, they say it is inside and could they take a look for free, then count how many TV's you had inside, then they would hook cable back up, say all fixed, and bill for every outlet.
Didn't Ma Bell use to charge for every telephone outlet before they were found to be a monopoly?
Nobody liked being nickel and dimmed then, and nobody likes it now. |
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pvale
Lurk, Lurk, Lurk,They Call Me The Lurker
join:2000-03-29
Washington, MO
clubs:
·Charter Pipeline
| reply to hescominsoon
Re: Rolling my own
What if you are running 2 NAT devices in series? I'm running a Freesco PC-made-into-router, feeding a Netgear RT314, and my machines are connected behind the Netgear box. I haven't read the mentioned paper, but the only ID that would show on the WAN side of the Freesco would be the Netgear's. Since Freesco is built on a small Linux distribution, I'm sure I can change what it does/reports.
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Using ET photons (Solar Power) to search for ET. |
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vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD |  reply to ThirdShifter
Re: Comcast would be very happy
said by ThirdShifter :
Die comcast! die!
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vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD
| reply to succinctly put
Re: Rolling my own
Linux routing definatly would come in handly with a situation like this. Also someone will market a router and switch that is "privacy enabled" so that they wont be able to see it anyways.
Comcast will make their enimes rich if they persue this avenue.
Remeber, Hack the Crack, Crack the Hack never ending cycle.
vic102482 made that up!! remember that lol.
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I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree, don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!!!! |
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succintly put
@207.99.x.x
| reply to amenite
Iptables supports 'packet mangling' as just one of it's many functions. Packet mangling changes the packet headers.
You can get a lot more advice and help in the 'All Things Unix' forum. I -may- get a friend to write and post a 'how-to' in ATU when I'm done. 'nuff said. |
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amenite
The Soylent - It's People
Premium
join:2002-11-21
Ridgewood, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by succintly put:
...
You can get a lot more advice and help in the 'All Things Unix' forum. I -may- get a friend to write and post a 'how-to' in ATU when I'm done. 'nuff said.
That would be excellent, the topic is a little obscure to many of us.
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Time is an abstract concept invented by carbon based life forms to monitor their constant decay.-Thunderclese |
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MrMaster
What If
Premium
join:2000-12-16
Austin, TX
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to averagedude
Re: Good 'Ol Days
said by averagedude :
I remember when the TV cable guys would try to "count" how many TV sets you had by using signal bleed. If they couldn't, they would use an old trick - disconnect your cable, you call for service, they say it is inside and could they take a look for free, then count how many TV's you had inside, then they would hook cable back up, say all fixed, and bill for every outlet.
Didn't Ma Bell use to charge for every telephone outlet before they were found to be a monopoly?
Nobody liked being nickel and dimmed then, and nobody likes it now.
I think you are correct. A few lawsuits put them in their place.
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Do you want to feel smart? Ask George Bush a question. |
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justvisiting
@rr.com | Just one pC
Perhaps I should run a dual-monitor PC with "extra-keyboard-&-mouse" splitters and emulation software and multiple instances of web browser so that many processes and people could use JUST THE ONE PC to access the internet.... ? |
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amenite
The Soylent - It's People
Premium
join:2002-11-21
Ridgewood, NJ
clubs:
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to pvale
Re: Rolling my own
said by pvale :
What if you are running 2 NAT devices in series? I'm running a Freesco PC-made-into-router, feeding a Netgear RT314, and my machines are connected behind the Netgear box. I haven't read the mentioned paper, but the only ID that would show on the WAN side of the Freesco would be the Netgear's. Since Freesco is built on a small Linux distribution, I'm sure I can change what it does/reports.
The ID in question is the IP id string assigned to each packet by the OS, not the IP address of the NAT device. It only has to do with the IP address in that you would be monitoring/analyzing the all packet headers originating from a particular IP address.
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Time is an abstract concept invented by carbon based life forms to monitor their constant decay.-Thunderclese |
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freerock
Premium
join:2001-05-04
New York, NY | Use OpenBSD's pf
openbsd's pf has something that stops this:
»www.deadly.org/article.php3?sid=···09221723 |
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Marine in desert
@adelphia.net
| Wireless people
This seems very unfair to me. I am in the military and live in government housing. I have one cable inlet into my house ( going to tv). Now, unless I want wires everywhere, I have to put my computer right next to my t.v. right? No way, that's why I bought all my wireless adapters and routers! I f everyone takes a stand there will be a decision made like the original cable case mentioned in earlier posts. Down with monopolies!!!!  |
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njuser
@datalife.com
| Just use a tweak tool and up your TTL by 1?
As I read it, the counting of hosts depends on "known" values of TTL being decreased by a NAT box. Why not just use one of the many "tweaking" tools to up your TTL by one - then the NAT box appears as if it were your Windows box...
Of course, the "high port numbers" would show up from some NAT boxes..... |
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