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Comments on news posted 2003-09-09 13:23:01: For a glimpse into how a municipally run cable utility can drastically alter the competitive landscape of a region, one need only look toward Tacoma, Washington. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4
AuthorAll Replies


zabes63

join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL

The Incumbents Lied!?


When citizens in the Illinois cities of St. Charles, Geneva and Batavia voted on whether or not to start a municipal network, local incumbents ran advertisements warning about the financial pitfalls of such projects. One of their examples of such fiscal trouble spots was the Click! network in Tacoma, despite the fact the network quickly found itself running in the black, and did not result in higher taxes. You can find responses to the incumbent claims from Click! representatives at the Tri-cities broadband website.



I for one am SHOCKED!!
--
Click here to visit Tri-City Broadband

vic102482
Premium
join:2002-04-30
Upper Marlboro, MD

I DIDNT EVEN READ THE ARTICLE

And I came up with this formula

Cable Providers > Munis = High Prices and Penalties for not using their TV service but wanting cable internet

Cable Providers = Munis = Lower prices, no more penalties, free 1st month package deal

Cable Providers Munis = $9.99 Basic, FREE internet, FREE Primtime, FREE HDTV, and free installs and equipment.

Am I close?
--
10,000+ Posts and counting. You aint gonna stop me!!!!w00t!!


jplove71
IBEW 113
Premium
join:2001-03-16
Colorado Springs, CO
Competition = Lower Prices

Competition is the only way that prices are going to come down. And the municipalities providing the competition is a good start!
--
Browsing with Mozilla Firebird 0.6.1

RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest

Cross subsidy?

said by text of article above:
The Click! network was developed as an afterthought; Tacoma Public Utilities already had fiber in the ground, and like many utilities (see our recent article on the subject), decided to put that extra bandwidth to good use.
I'm all for competition no matter who is competing, but isn't this cross-subsidization from the power customers? What is the rate base for the expenses of laying that fiber and lighting it up in the first place? Are the electric customers paying part of the tab for 'putting the extra bandwidth to good use'? What would the costs be if the fiber had not been there already?

I'm no fan of Comcast, but it seems to me that the playing field here is not quite level and someone (taxpayers?) are already carrying part of the burden for this, including the ones who are not using the cable TV and HSI service it provides. If they are really "competing" then there should be no public money involved.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

said by RadioDoc See Profile:
I'm all for competition no matter who is competing, but isn't this cross-subsidization from the power customers?
Just about all of the towns mentioned in the article had some existing municipally-provided service from which the broadband was piggy-backed. Having low prices is very easy when you can just milk that cash cow. I wonder what the prices would be if a municipally-run operation had to charge franchise fees and pass along the cost of taxes down to its customers as well.

I wonder how the non-broadband power customers took the 50% rate hike in electric bills. It sounds like some competition is needed in the electrical market here so that the customers can get lower prices.
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast


 reply to zabes63
Re: The Incumbents Lied!?

said by zabes63 See Profile:
I for one am SHOCKED!!
No no no! You got it all wrong... the way you say it is: "I for one am shocked, SHOCKED!"

It's all in the delivery LOL.
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!

[text was edited by author 2003-09-09 14:03:43]


zabes63

join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL

reply to RadioDoc
Re: Cross subsidy?

By the same token one could argue that a fiscally thrifty muni operation, minus the ilk of a John Rigas, or other, overpriced, whiney CEO, could show a tidy profit and therefore subsidize electrical customers who don't use the broadband utility.

This was one scenario that we foresaw with the Tri City Broadband initiative, but did not make public for fear of being accused of over selling.
--
Click here to visit Tri-City Broadband


bistro777
Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do?
Premium
join:2002-02-07
Englewood, CO

reply to jplove71
Re: Competition = Lower Prices

Here’s what broadband in the area cost earlier this year:

Comcast –
$49.95/mo (if bundled with cable service) + $3/mo modem for 1.5/256

Qwest -
$39.95/mo for 256/256 or $49.95/mo for 640/256

And then Click! entered the marketplace at -
$29.95/mo for 1.0/128 or $49/mo for 2.0/256

Just like the MasterCard commercial says - - - Competition...priceless.

"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind." -- Humphrey Bogart


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

reply to zabes63
Re: Cross subsidy?

said by zabes63 See Profile:
By the same token one could argue that a fiscally thrifty muni operation, minus the ilk of a John Rigas, or other, overpriced, whiney CEO, could show a tidy profit and therefore subsidize electrical customers who don't use the broadband utility.
I personally would like to see state and local governments provide significant tax breaks and/or other incentives so that private citizens and businesses could have an easier time investing in their own broadband networks for their own towns. Maybe even exempt these kinds of startups from the same fees that are passed down to the customers for a limited time.

You still get the same benefits of locally run operation that you would not have to worry about the government screwing things up and handing the bill to the taxpayers (or ruining the town's credit rating).
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!


zabes63

join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL

said by pnh102 See Profile:
I personally would like to see state and local governments provide significant tax breaks and/or other incentives so that private citizens and businesses could have an easier time investing in their own broadband networks for their own towns.
I could live with that. I just don't see it happening with the influence that the incumbents hold over the politicos.
--
Click here to visit Tri-City Broadband

RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest

reply to zabes63
Conjecture is nice for debate; I'd like to see the cash flows and actual results of actual operations. This smells like the same type of anti-competitive cross-subsidy the telcos like to use and we all loathe. Putting tax revenues in jeopardy to back it up makes it all the worse.

Any cross subsidy should be outlawed. Why should the broadband customers subsidize the electric customers either? Lower their rates if you have that much of a surplus. If it can be done by a muni, let it live or die like a real company. Sell bonds to construct it like a commercial operation has to, and don't tie repayment to tax revenues. If the fiber is already there, buy or lease it or a portion of it from the electric utility with real money so they can refund that part back to the electric customers who are paying for it instead of diverting the cash to an unrelated line of business.


Phoenix__1

join:2003-07-17
Holyoke, MA


I'm all for it!

Bring it on! What are you waiting for?

I would love the power to choose between more then one cable company. Even when I was a little child, your choice was either what we've got or nothing at all. The power for the customer, to pick which cable company, I feel is a great power.

Currenly, Comcast holds me & everyone around here by the balls. If I feel something is wrong with the service, they know I'm not going anywhere & if I do, at least they know their not losing me to someone else.... However, if they knew I had the choose between them & someone else, I bet you anything, they'd jump at a moments notice.

Personally, in my case Verizon is the only real phone company around & when I was getting "slammed", no matter how many times, I tried to denie the charge, I was told pay up or lose service. That's one of the reasons, why I cut my lane line & use only a cell phone... Because Verizon sucked, but I had a whole group of companies to use for cells (Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint, ATT, Cingle One, ect..). If I had the choice between another phone company, I may have made the switch..... My point being, keeping customers in a closed box, is not only a bad idea, but an unfair one as well.

So I'm totally open for change & the power to choose. Lord knows when I was getting hacked to death & Comcast wanted to tell me, "tuff sh*t" I wanted to switch, but had no other choice too choose from.

So I say, bring it on!
[text was edited by author 2003-09-09 14:28:06]


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

reply to zabes63
Re: Cross subsidy?

said by zabes63 See Profile:
I just don't see it happening with the influence that the incumbents hold over the politicos.

Agreed. The solution doesn't have to involve digging expensive holes in the ground or running cables however. The costs of starting a wireless network are so low now that the kinds of tax breaks and incentives that I suggest may not even matter. That would be one way to get some immediate competition.

Once that money stops feeding the same big companies that refuse to provide modern services, their influence will wane.
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!


JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs:
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reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 See Profile:
I wonder how the non-broadband power customers took the 50% rate hike in electric bills. It sounds like some competition is needed in the electrical market here so that the customers can get lower prices.
They took the hike the same way they would have taken the hike had Click! Network NOT been built. Further down in the link you provided, is this little tid-bit:

said by
Broadband Failures
Tacoma, Washington:


The Charge: To pay for increased capital costs for their fiber system, Tacoma Public Utilities imposed a 50% surcharge on local electric bills.

Response From The Utility: "I am aware of your citizens group, your upcoming Tri City Broadband Referendum and the aggressive media campaign by those in opposition to your efforts. I review DSL Reports regularly and would like to set the record straight about Click! Network, for those who are interested in facts rather than propaganda.

...snip...

An important note, those opposing your efforts have erroneously connected Tacoma Power’s surcharge during the energy crisis with Click! Network, when in fact the two have no connection at all. At the beginning of the energy crisis (winter 2000), Click! was already constructed in Tacoma and Tacoma Power had over $100,000,000 in cash reserves, which is triple the amount we carry on an operating basis for contingencies. The utility was determining the best way to invest it when the energy crisis hit. Unfortunately the $100,000,000 was not enough, and the utility chose to initiate a surcharge.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

That may indeed be true. Personally, I don't buy it. What privately run power company "just happened to lay fiber optic cable" and then said "oh, we're not using this, lets resell the network!" But I digress.

Nowhere in my post did I assert that that the 50% rate hike was due to the broadband service. I was merely suggesting that this rate hike was unfair to the customers, and that some form of competition in the electrical sector was needed so that the customers could choose a cheaper provider.
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!


batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25

reply to RadioDoc
From »Broadband Reports: Interview

BBR: How about the assertion that municipalities can cross subsidize communications services with revenues from other sources.

Jim Baller: Municipalities today are careful to avoid cross-subsidization. The private sector, by contrast, engages in cross subsidization on a massive scale. At a recent conference, I asked a fellow speaker who was representing the industry's point of view whether private sector providers would be willing to comply with the "level playing field" requirements that he was espousing for municipal broadband providers. His answer was, "Why should we? We are and should be free to do anything to maximize revenues for our shareholders." Fine. But then let's get off our high horses about the need to impose level the playing field requirements on municipal broadband providers. More on this later.

Dyoo78 asks: Robert Crandall and crew keep insisting that asymmetric regulation has alot to do with U.S. broadband woes? How credible are those arguments and where do you stand on regulating cable companies and ILECs differently?

Jim Baller: With all respect to Robert Crandall, et al., I doubt that asymmetric regulation has had much, if anything, to do with our Nation's "bandwidth woes." Furthermore, I think that putting everyone on the same regulatory track without accounting for the historical and other differences between providers is a formula for trouble.

As Robert Pepper, Chief of the Office of Planning and Policy of the FCC, has succinctly observed, "[W]e hear all the time, the argument by incumbents, that ... ‘Well, we are regulated, but these new entrants, providing new services, are not regulated, and we need to have a level playing field. We need to make sure that everybody is treated the same.’ There are two kinds of asymmetric regulation. One is where you have firms that are similarly situated and treated differently. That is a bad thing; it leads to all kinds of distortions. Likewise, if you have two firms that are not similarly situated and are radically different in their circumstances, but you treat them the same, that also leads to all kinds of distortions." R. Pepper, Policy Changes Necessary to Meet Internet Development, 2001 L. Rev. M.S.U.-D.C.L. 255, 257 (2001) (emphasis added).

While we're on the topic of asymmetric regulation, I have great concerns about the laws that a number of states have enacted, or are considering enacting, to create a "level playing field" between public and private communications providers. Tom Hazlett, a former chief economist of the FCC, has shown that such laws weigh heavily in favor of incumbent and make meaningful competition very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve. T. W. Hazlett and G.S. Ford, The Fallacy of Regulatory Symmetry: An Economic Analysis of ‘the Level Playing Field’ in Cable TV Franchising Statutes, 3 Business and Politics 21, 43 (2001), pdf link. In my opinion, laws such as these are unnecessary and counterproductive.
--
»www.tricitybroadband.com


batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25

reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 See Profile:
That may indeed be true. Personally, I don't buy it. What privately run power company "just happened to lay fiber optic cable" and then said "oh, we're not using this, lets resell the network!" But I digress.

The fiber is used to manage electric substations, etc.

The cost difference in laying 12 fibers and 144 fibers is minimal...the cost is in the construction not the actual fiber. It would be kind of silly to build a plant that's going to be immediately "overtaxed"...better to look ahead.

Agreed..I'm sure they didn't go into this blindly and realized they had something later, but they could probably justify laying the fiber for they're own internal needs.
--
»www.tricitybroadband.com

RadioDoc
58ef2c0
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
·AT&T Midwest

reply to batageek
So, where is the operating data in all that? Who is paying what to whom to use that fiber? Who put it in the ground in the first place and who paid for that?

I agree with you that the regulatory environment is totally hosed. No need to beat that horse again.

The theme here is competition and lower rates for end-users when it is evident in a market. Let's show that there isn't an improper cross-subsidy at work here in the "positive" examples, and maybe you folks in the Tri-cities area will get your referendum passed the next time.


JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs:
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reply to pnh102
You may not have had to buy an electricity rate increase due to the crisis in 2000/2001, but many of our neighbors in the NW did:

San Diego Energy crisis cited as turning point for Davis
Seattle Zarker's critics ignoring the basics of energy crisis
Lake Tahoe Sierra Pacific Files for Emergency Electric Rate Increase in California
Central Oregon Central, Midstate E!ectric raise rates effective Oct. 1

While you never made the assertion that the increase in the price of electricity was due to broadband service, you questioned how non-broadband customers viewed the rate increase. Why did you make that distinction? If the rate hike was unfair to non-broadband customers, then it was also unfair to broadband customers. Either way, the rate increase isn't at all relevant to the Click! Network.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

said by JTRockville See Profile:
you questioned how non-broadband customers viewed the rate increase. Why did you make that distinction?
I added that bit because like myself, I am sure that a lot of non-broadband customers believe that the 50% rate hike was indeed due to the broadband venture. But to clarify, I cannot assert that this is indeed the case. What the spokesperson for Click! said may entirely be true, it could also be complete BS.
--
Jewel got Britney-fied! There is hope for the world yet!
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