 
kba4
join:2001-10-23
Canton, OH
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| simple solution don't buy dell? if the proprietary PSU wasn't bad enough, this will surely keep me away from them. why buy a pre-configured system (likely with some of what is labeled spyware installed) if they're not gonna support it. if they install the RealOne player, for instance, how is it not their fault your system now has unwanted software that indeed spies? i realize what probably sent the company over the edge to 'no support' was novice users constantly calling about software they themselves had installed, but dell should draw a line; support software that dell supplies/installs but limited support within the warranty period for users' actions. of course, i've never bought dell, and i tell others to seriously consider buying components and letting me assemble their next PC anyways, unless the pricing is too close to make much difference.
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detth
Onemhz On Aim
join:2000-10-06
Astoria, NY
| Re: simple solution I recommend building a pc myself to people that I know, but most are stubborn and think that a Dell or other brand name is best. It seems odd to them, if a pc doesnt have a brand name, they think it's of inferior quality.
For example, a friend of mine thinks my box is crap, ever since he asked me " what kind of computer do you have? a Compaq, Dell, Sony?" and after I told him it's a no name I built with parts of my choosing, hes like "oh, why didnt you get a brand-name"? | |
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| | wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
| Re: simple solution said by detth  :
I recommend building a pc myself to people that I know, but most are stubborn and think that a Dell or other brand name is best. It seems odd to them, if a pc doesnt have a brand name, they think it's of inferior quality.
For example, a friend of mine thinks my box is crap, ever since he asked me " what kind of computer do you have? a Compaq, Dell, Sony?" and after I told him it's a no name I built with parts of my choosing, hes like "oh, why didnt you get a brand-name"?
Hmm unless of course, you recommend or specify boxes for clients. I've recommended (and have personally used) Dell machines for years with no problems. OTOH, on the rare occasion that things go wrong, the next-day on-site service has worked well (never had a need for the same day). If a box you build for a client goes south, are you there to replace or repair it (for a minimal annual fee, of course)?
There's a reason Ford Motor Company chose them as suppliers.
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TheChosenOne2
I Will Bring Balance
join:2003-08-17
Deep River, CT
| Re: simple solution Building your own PC is far better than buying some thrown-together-in-10-minutes piece of OEM junk. You have total control over the parts that you buy, the brand of the parts that you buy, etc. The only thing the big name OEM's have going for them is the simple fact that because they buy parts in such large quantities, they get massive discounts which they use to undercut the independent system builders.
Sure, most people would rather buy their computer from Dell, HP, etc. but guess what? From my computer repair experience, they don't bother calling Dell or HP for technical support because their technical support is USELESS -- they call the local computer technician(s). | |
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| | | | wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
1 edit | Re: simple solution said by TheChosenOne2 :
Building your own PC is far better than buying some thrown-together-in-10-minutes piece of OEM junk. You have total control over the parts that you buy, the brand of the parts that you buy, etc. The only thing the big name OEM's have going for them is the simple fact that because they buy parts in such large quantities, they get massive discounts which they use to undercut the independent system builders.
Sure, most people would rather buy their computer from Dell, HP, etc. but guess what? From my computer repair experience, they don't bother calling Dell or HP for technical support because their technical support is USELESS -- they call the local computer technician(s).
Again though, I must ask -- do you provide a warranty? On-site service either same or next day? For a fairly minimal annual fee? Dell does. And, frankly, I've rarely had problems with them. The ones that have developed problems (2 machines in about 8-9 years) have been dealt with quickly. The power supply on the computer at my Church went south. Dell overnighted a new power supply (they hadn't purchased the on-site service option). The machine was running the next day (I installed the unit). A monitor was once DOA when I performed setup for a client. Got tech support on the line. Hooked the monitor to another machine, hooked the other machine's monitor to the new Dell. Proved it was the monitor, not the video card. A new monitor was air shipped to the client's doorstep the next day, and the original monitor RMA'd at the same time.
This is not to say you are wrong, just that if I have to recommend a machine, I'll recommend a Dell without qualification, and for the above reasons.
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jimi419
Dadof3
join:2002-03-14
Round Lake, IL
clubs:
| Re: simple solution and yes i build my own and gee my buddy has a dell and as i type im fixing it for him and yes any retail pc shop has to give a 1 yr warranty and will give a longer one for more money just like dell face u are caught up in the if it isnt name brand it is crap i would be willing to bet that my pc runs cirlces around yours and i built it see if u have the knowledge to build it u have the knowledge to research parts and forums like oh here all it takes is a little effort and u will have the same pc dell or any namebrand retail place can offer and have the satisfaction knowing u built it with your own 2 lil hands. srry about the sarcasam | |
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Toymaster
Premium
join:2001-12-27
Flint, MI
clubs:
 ·AT&T Midwest
| Re: simple solution Well, tech support is only as good as the training...I bought one pre build computer that was an Aptiva.It ran fine but when I wanted to upgrade, there was not much really i could do. So , I went out and built my own computer. I have had no problems with my own built computer and I know what I have in it and can research what is and is not compatibly with it. If you call tech support cause u want to upgrade you computer what are they going to say....sorry but if you upgrade you computer u void your warranty. And I have had the misfortune to try and repair pre built machines out of warranty...and you know what I find a lot of sub standard parts with brand names I have never heard of or no names components al together...so you may have had a good relationship with your products but what happens after the warranty or u want to upgrade?
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novaflare
The Dragon Was Here
Premium
join:2002-01-24
Barberton, OH
1 edit | said by TheChosenOne2 :
The only thing the big name OEM's have going for them is the simple fact that because they buy parts in such large quantities, they get massive discounts which they use to undercut the independent system builders.
Not the case i can right now go out and buy for 625 with out a monitor 750 with a amd 3000 xp with 512 megs ddr 60 gig to 80 gig western digital hd 8 meg buffer one ati 9500 pro 128 meg fastest avail dvd player high quality key board and mouse.
To get a like configured gate way del etc would cost me well over a grand probly 1200 + monitor on above system 19 inch reg crt for 100 more i can get a 15 inch kds flat panel.
If i built the same system with my own hand i could deduct 200 bucks with ease.
So no dell gate way compaq etc can not under cut cusom builder.
well they could but they wont simply put they know people are dumb enough to buy their comps cause its brand named.
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| | | | | wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
| Re: simple solution said by novaflare :
Not the case i can right now go out and buy for 625 with out a monitor 750 with a amd 3000 xp with 512 megs ddr 60 gig to 80 gig western digital hd 8 meg buffer one ati 9500 pro 128 meg fastest avail dvd player high quality key board and mouse.
To get a like configured gate way del etc would cost me well over a grand probly 1200 + monitor on above system 19 inch reg crt for 100 more i can get a 15 inch kds flat panel.
If i built the same system with my own hand i could deduct 200 bucks with ease.
Would you be kind enough to post links to some of the sites where you buy parts? I'd like to take a look to see what they have to offer. I'm thinking (only thinking) of laying my hands on a low-end server for experimentation. Might be interesting to build it myself just for grins. Thanks!
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kba4
join:2001-10-23
Canton, OH
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: simple solution some sites i've been checking out lately
»www.coolergiant.com - case/PSU (»store.yahoo.com/enermaxclearance/ is their sales area)
»www.mbx.com - motherboards
»www.newegg.com - about anything else
»www.pricewatch.com - for commodity parts like HD's/RAM/CPU, the best place to find the lowest price
i too am looking to build a net/media server for my home LAN, and doing it myself will be both educational and much cheaper. you don't need much more than a P3 at most for the app i'm using it for, but thing are so cheap, i'll probably build something truly kick-ass and still stay under my goal of $1000 (the most expensive parts will likely be the drives; i need 5-600GB). good luck!
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| | | | | | micropitt
Premium
join:2002-05-23
Cumberland, MD
| quote:
Would you be kind enough to post links to some of the sites where you buy parts? I'd like to take a look to see what they have to offer. I'm thinking (only thinking) of laying my hands on a low-end server for experimentation. Might be interesting to build it myself just for grins. Thanks!
Why building a server? You can buy on Ebay a used Dell Precision 610 Workstation with Dual Pentium 3 Xeon Processor for $160.00 in the average. It will work well with any OS (Unix, Linux, BSD, MS). | |
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DHRacer
Fire Survivor
join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA | Re: simple solution Caveat Emptor.
Build one and save your sanity, rather than risk the questionable items and sellers on Ebay. | |
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Taget
@mindspring.com
| Actually the right answer is to tell what brand motherboard you've got and why asus/abit/msi/etc are BETTER brandnames than sony, compaq, or dell. And how those companies just buy their motherboards from other guys, except they are crippled down versions of the same thing. | |
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| It would certainly be my choice to build. However, there are compelling reasons to buy brand name. For example, the last computer I bought was a Dell simply because I wanted the system as a whole to be warranted. And it's certainly true that other clients would require it simply because building a bunch of computers is difficult enough in the software (hard drive contents) sense, let alone machine assembly. At times, I'm regretting my decision to go prebuilt, but overall I'd have to say it's working out well. With the amount of customization one can do with a Dell system, if the emphasis is on blocks of functionality rather than the chosen implementation(s) of that functionality, to me buying a Dell is almost like building custom.
As for the main topic...two things...one, this is the effect a litigious society will have, and two, hmmm....much to my disappointment, do you think that maybe Dell has some "business alliances" with these spyware companies/operators, thus making assistance in removing this stuff a conflict of interest?
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kba4
join:2001-10-23
Canton, OH | Re: simple solution of course they have 'aliances'. i wouldn't be surprised if Real was up on that list, as well as other 'spies' like gator and the rest. it's all business to them.
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FLECOM
Bay Networks Freak
Premium
join:2003-03-03
Miami, FL | dell hasnt used priopritary psus since the days of the p2 in their home systems...
dell is by no means a bad choice compared to others, and most pc manufacturers will not support software that didnt come with the system anyway | |
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| | aahmed
join:2002-11-22
Winston Salem, NC
| Re: simple solution For desktops, I recommend my friends and family buy the parts and that I'd build it for them and even create a ghost image and put it on CDs in case they ever want to recover.
But Dell does make a very decent machine, I work for an outfit that has about 5000 dell optiplex systems. Their overnight warranty part replacement is actually overnight. I have never had problems with their support people, probably cuz I know what I'm doing and talking about.
But when there isn't much of a difference between a Dell system and one that I would build, I just have friends and family buy the Dell, but they I do a clean reinstall of the OS so there is no other crap on it but exactly what they need. I do this for laptops as well. Seems to work just fine.
Just my 2 cents. | |
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Premium
join:2002-11-27
clubs:
| Re: simple solution For a long time now the price difference between buying a dell and building a system has been negligible. You do however get all support from one place, and they do show up the next day with whatever parts are necessary (they will even replace parts that are not broken if the user feels strongly enough that they are).
As far as realone and scores of other preloaded crap on dell, just go through dell small business and you won't get any of it installed.
Reinstalling OS fresh is just a waste of time, its as fresh as it gets when you get the computer, but I guess for some people its necessary to show to their computer illiterate friends and family how smart they are. | |
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| | | Nice Try5
join:2003-04-17
Silver Spring, MD
| I do the exact same thing. I recommend Dell to everyone I know. Sure, my main box is a home-grown monster but realistically it would also cost a fortune to piece out and build all at once. You could build a pc for the same money as Dell charges but the quality of parts won't be as good. People don't see it as cost effective and I can't say I blame them. Dell, IMHO, is the best way to go compared to HP/Compaq/E-machines/Gateway/etc....
My only real gripe about dells is that I can't gut the box and move it to another case cause the i/o off the mb are layed out non industry standard. | |
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| | | | KONG4
join:2002-04-05
Tampa, FL
| Re: simple solution said by Nice Try5 :
I do the exact same thing. I recommend Dell to everyone I know. Sure, my main box is a home-grown monster but realistically it would also cost a fortune to piece out and build all at once. You could build a pc for the same money as Dell charges but the quality of parts won't be as good.
Ive worked for Gateway and Dell Both. Both company's make an a good PC for the home or novice user. Or even the experienced user who is scared to build or does not have enough time to build there own. Ive worked on Their machines and on custom built rigs made by myself and others.
And in the end there is no comparison. The custom built machine is always the best route for the highly experienced and expert user. With the Dell models as well as all the others there are to many hoops to jump thru to get things done. And yes the mother boards, power supplies and case's are proprietary and not interchangeable. So you are stuck with buying a new system cause you cant upgrade any of these components. You may pay the same money for your home built box as you do for a dell and not have the extended warranty. But Ive found in most cases I can build custom machines with just as high of quality hardware or higher for less money. Plus down the road if I feel the need to upgrade cpu, mb, or power supply i am not buying a new system. Just buying a new component.
People buy names. Its a proven fact people like to go to party's or at the office lunch hour and say hey George I just bought the BMW M-5, or the Rolex, or I have the Platinum card. When they cant drop a name to impress someone with the pc they purchased they feel it is inferior because its not a name they can drop to prop up their egos. And this is why they spend millions on name and brand recognition.
The facts are Dell makes a good computer for the masses. Not the best computer on the market. | |
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martmann
join:2000-12-11
Federal Way, WA
1 edit | Re: simple solution I agree,
Dells are fine for people that don't want to go to the trouble or take the time to build there own, or people that want a low end PC. Also if you're a business that needs a lot of machines.
But you can absolutely STOMP a Dell system, with a custom built, in both the price, and quality of parts.
Anybody who says otherwise either doesn't know how, or hasn't tried it. You also get a system with exactly what you want, and in the process learn more about your PC than you would ever know with a Dell.
For a home user, Dell customer support SUX! | |
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zabes63
join:2003-04-05
Batavia, IL
| Re: simple solution said by martmann :
For a home user, Dell customer support SUX!
I agree
I can't stand that they advertise "award winning tech support", as they canned everyone who got them those awards in favor of incomprehensible, substandard, support techs offshore.
I'll build my own from here on out thank you. | |
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Nam Vet
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Allentown, PA | Re: simple solution Exactly WHAT awards? | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost
| said by KONG4 :
And yes the mother boards, power supplies and case's are proprietary and not interchangeable.
Bull. You have no idea what you're talking about. I own quite a few Dells, and I can say with certainty that there is nothing proprietary about the hardware. | |
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heels_fan
1.20.09 The start of Socialism
Premium
join:2003-02-07
Columbia, TN | Re: simple solution those stories are over a year old...I know for proven fact..that you can replace those parts with standard parts....
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martmann
join:2000-12-11
Federal Way, WA
| Re: simple solution Yes, and my point was Dell, at any time, might change to a non-standard anything, that can end up screwing you on an upgrade attempt, without telling you. They didn't tell customers when they switched PSUs and they wont tell you when they switch something else. They also won't help you upgrade your Dell when you ask what parts you can upgrade to (unless maybe you buy the parts from Dell).
So, hey if you want to count on being able to upgrade your Dell blindly, more power to you. I just wouldn't count on it going well. Ask anybody that was blindsided and lost their new Mobo or PSU when they tried to upgrade. | |
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heels_fan
1.20.09 The start of Socialism
Premium
join:2003-02-07
Columbia, TN
| Re: simple solution i still disagree with you. If you call Dell T/S...atleast the ones that I know that work at Dell, they will be happy to tell you what parts you can upgrade. I have several friends that work in T/S here in Nashville and they say that they do it all the time.
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martmann
join:2000-12-11
Federal Way, WA | Re: simple solution All righty then. | |
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Toast_Anon
| Are you daft man?!
Dude, way to put your foot in your mouth on that one.
Go read up. I personally upgraded my gf's DELL and had to buy the adapter for the new PSU I stuck in it.
Nothing proprietary about the hardware? Ha! | |
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join:2002-02-01 | Umm I have to say BS. How many 1 Ghz systems have you seen that only support 512 Meg of ram max. | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost
| Re: simple solution said by Bean07 :
Umm I have to say BS. How many 1 Ghz systems have you seen that only support 512 Meg of ram max.
Where did I say anything about a 1 Ghz system only supporting 512 MB of RAM? | |
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martmann
join:2000-12-11
Federal Way, WA | Re: simple solution Yeah, I don't see that either, maybe they just replied to the wrong post (did that above, myself). | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost | Re: simple solution Yeah, that's probably what happened. | |
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IGGY
No Guru Just Here To Help
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-30
Chatham, IL
1 edit | "dell hasnt used priopritary psus since the days of the p2 in their home systems"
This is a load of bull - do your homework next time. We ( my household ) previously had a Dell Dimension L500r with a P3 manufactured on 1/14/2000 that in fact had a proprietary power supply. I have a friend who bought one of there models that has proprietary RAM.
Now with all that said I think they provide a very good product. At a very good price. But if you plan on upgrading certain parts of the machine - you very well may have to get those upgrades from Dell. This is something to keep in mind when purchasing from them or any other vendor. All systems are stress tested before leaving the assembly warehouse. This is shown to customers if they go to the Dell site to check on the status of there machine - during the assembly process.
The phone support when I used it a few years back - varied - my experience on this is detailed within the thread linked in the story above. There in home service is definitely a plus - but comes at a cost - as do any warranties. But I can say that for anyone not wanting to play around with hardware - Dell in home support is definitely top notch. A hello to Sue.:) Inside joke of sorts. Dude you can get more than a Dell.
I now prefer to build my own. Even though the cost is nowhere near as good as with buying a model from a name brand manufacturer.
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| | Alaska_Hunter
join:2001-04-04
Aurora, CO
| I can't agree more. I've been in the computer/networking business for more than 14 years and personally I build my own PCs but when I have friends/family ask me to build them one, I recommend Dell. The company I work for has nothing but Compaq desktops/servers and I can say that I'm not real impressed with the desktops. Though the Compaq server/SAN solution is pretty slick. | |
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C_
Kill The Socialists
Premium
join:2001-03-19
| said by kba4 :
if the proprietary PSU wasn't bad enough, this will surely keep me away from them.
this FUD still being spread around???
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kba4
join:2001-10-23
Canton, OH
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: simple solution it's in my A+ Cert. book, 2003 ed. if this is untrue, then i'll quit my class, that's 3 strikes for Comptia!! on second thought, there's only 6 more days left and if this kind of crap passes for Cert. material, then i'll pass the test in no time:)
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| | | danwanna
join:2003-04-15
Galesburg, IL
| Re: simple solution I currently work for Dell on the software development side of things, and I can see both sides of this argument. I have several machines at home and most of them are Dell. I actually bought a couple of them before joining Dell, so there was no conflict of interest there.
I also have a custom built machine I use for gaming. I don't know if it is any faster, more stable or cheaper than what I could have gotten prebuilt from Dell or anyone else, but I can say for sure that I really enjoyed building and still enjoy tweaking this system to get the most out of my games.
For the machines I depend on both at work and at home, I prefer to have a prebuilt system that has support and a warranty. But when I really want to "waste" (my wife's words) half a day messing around with something, I really enjoy having my gaming system lying around to upgrade. | |
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marketex
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Lansing, IL
| Just to put in a new drive yourself in a Dell you have to remove the proprietary PSU because the drives BACK into it. (Dimension 2300) Maybe these guys don't actually know of what standard install consists.
Drives should Back into the Case from the front, It is a real pain to deinstall the entire PSU to simply install a DVD burner or whatever internal 51/4 form factor drive you need to install. Makes a tidy little bundle when they are the only guys whose drives you can buy. | |
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Nam Vet
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Allentown, PA | I'm still waiting for someone to post
exactly what award dell got for service and/or support.
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novaflare
The Dragon Was Here
Premium
join:2002-01-24
Barberton, OH
| Re: simple solution said by Nam Vet :
I'm still waiting for someone to post
exactly what award dell got for service and/or support.
They use to have awesome support
Example personal experiance worked in local computer shop
Guy comes in with his del 300mhz lap top 32 megs ram 6gig hd
"so whats wrong wih it?"
owner "screens dead friend tol me to use windex"
"on a soft cloth well that shouldnt hurt it any"
owner "no i sprayed it on the screen"
"err that wont be covered by warranty"
owner "yeh didnt think so"
so we call dell they say well though it was obviously abuse and we cant cover it under warranty will replace the screen for the cost of the screen and shiping no labor charge.
so we send it in 4 days later it comes back screen working perfectly matter of fact the lap top was better than new heh
32 megs ram better 100 mhz better 6 gigs hd better heh turns out they didnt have a new lcd in shop and didnt want to make him wait 2 weeks for part so they gave him the lowest endlap top they had that had 1 inch bigger lcd and all the other stuff.
so at one point in time back in 96 or there abouts they had the absolute best customer service for prebuilt computers.
Now i cant say i havent delt with them in a long time.
But as per this i think its just retarded i men come on dell is a company whos main customer are computer newbies who know little about computers and they are going to screw up alot.
The more help you give them with things not covered under warranty the more likly you will keep them when they have the knowlage to rebuild and upgrade their own hardware.
And when it comes right down t it word of mouth is the best way to sell your product or doom it.....
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Nam Vet
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Allentown, PA
| Re: simple solution Thats all fine and dandy, and I realize that back then the support was fine, however customers posting nice things(back then) do not equal an "AWARD"
Did Dell at one time pat themselves on their own back and call it an "award"?
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heels_fan
1.20.09 The start of Socialism
Premium
join:2003-02-07
Columbia, TN
| Re: simple solution said by Nam Vet :
Thats all fine and dandy, and I realize that back then the support was fine, however customers posting nice things(back then) do not equal an "AWARD"
Did Dell at one time pat themselves on their own back and call it an "award"?
»www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/···en&s=gen
There ya go..for starters
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Nam Vet
Premium
join:2001-12-03
Allentown, PA
| Re: simple solution This whole thread is about home users, its a proven fact that dell's customer support for corporations and home users
are as different as night and day!
The link you gave shows 3 "awards"
The top one is for "corporate"
The bottom one refers to "it departments" and I dont know of any home user who has an it department
The one in the middle is from pc magazine which I have my doubts about
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detth
Onemhz On Aim
join:2000-10-06
Astoria, NY | Kind of stuck there.. Ah, those legal ramifications...
I can understand that Dell cannot support this directly, but what about at least pointing the users to a site that may be able to assist, such as bbr? | |
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detth
Onemhz On Aim
join:2000-10-06
Astoria, NY | Re: Kind of stuck there.. yea.. I worked helpdesk years ago, but wha tthey could say is, you CAN try xxx site for help, but under your own risk, please note we are not responsible should something go wrong... | |
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purplejello
join:2001-08-23
Reno, NV
clubs:
| Your post brings up another interesting point.
My term-time job at school is 'computer assistance'. When a user in the dorms has a problem, they come to me or another computer assistant for help.
We are explicitly not allowed to help people with p2p software in any way. Most importantly, we are not allowed to try to help people 'block the RIAA' or turn off sharing from p2p apps, and we are warned strongly that we can never tell a user, "You won't get sued by the RIAA now."
With that as background, I told one of my friends how she CAN block uploading on kazaa, but didn't directly help her do it. A few weeks later, she came to me upset, saying "I got a warning letter fom the RIAA, and it's your fault."
As it turns out, she had not followed my directions properly. This experience indicates to me another reason for Dell to stop supporting spyware. Even if they just say, "You CAN go to x-x-x.com site to get SpyBot," they will still get users who are very unhappy, claiming that Dell's solution didn't work, that Dell's solution broke their computer, uninstalled their mouse, etc.
Furthermore, Dell doesn't have control over SpyBot. What if its author decides to include a Trojan horse in its next release? Or, more plausibly, what if his server is hacked and a trojan is inserted without his knowledge? Dell could be found responsible for damages caused to its users in some way if this were to happen.
--
( `( ¯`( ¯`·._ Death Ring _.·´ ¯ )´ ¯ )´ ) - Visit Deathring.us for Drinking Games, Mixed Drinks, Hot-Or-Not, Girls, Games, Cheats, Hacks, Topsites, and AIM Utilities. | |
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| | Unhygienix
join:2001-11-07
Stouffville, ON
| Well said N10Cities. Rock and a hardplace seems to apply and I understand Dell's position. Trying to empower a user through some education and a shove in the right direction, even with noble intentions, can blow up in your face. It's a fine line indeed.
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Go Leafs Go | |
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pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
| Makes sense I'm not saying that it's right, but Dell is obviously worried about liability. Many EULA's unfortunately prohibit the removal of the attached spyware.
Yet one more reason to go open-sourced and non-proprietary. 
--
Let's give government back to the people. www.lp.org | |
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Vamp
5c077
Premium
join:2003-01-28
MD | Re: Makes sense yeah, definitly build your desktops. But as for laptop's there isnt really any choice but to buy. | |
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pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA | Re: Makes sense Yeah, that's true. I was taking more OS and software though, which is usually where the spyware/adware issue arises.
--
Let's give government back to the people. www.lp.org | |
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| | todd2473
join:2003-07-03
North Vernon, IN
| dells are probably the best box made pc ok now before you get your ram in an up roar hear me out the only time I have ever had a problem free pc was my dell made xp1000b_r I even still use it in my household rock solid and stable as ever with a 128mb radeon 8500le overclocked with coolbits to close to factory limits. now I have built my last two pc's and would recommend it to all but those who can't and or don't want to learn to build a pc I say go dell all the way. alien ware makes a decent pc too but dells are much more stable in my opinion | |
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FLECOM
Bay Networks Freak
Premium
join:2003-03-03
Miami, FL
| Re: dells are probably the best box made pc said by todd2473 :
alien ware makes a decent pc too but dells are much more stable in my opinion
i agreewith everything you said, albiet a bit off topic... but that last comment ruined it =P | |
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Varangian
join:2002-12-08
Collinsville, IL
|  If someone wanted to punish dell
(Gator = Spyware . Any my laywer says "come get some" if they don't like it.)
That should get the switches humming in Dells outsourced call centers | |
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| Dodge
Premium
join:2002-11-27
clubs: | Re: If someone wanted to punish dell DELLs don't have gator installed on the machines, where did you come up with this? | |
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Varangian
join:2002-12-08
Collinsville, IL
| Re: If someone wanted to punish dell I'm sorry for the obscure reference.
A few weeks ago Gator sued someone for referring to their spyware as spyware.
I and other s felt that a nice reward for this might be to refer to all spywares as gators.
But if you'll scroll down, a user appears to have found gator itself installed on a dell PC right out of the box.
(Though I didnt know that when i posted for the first time)
sorry about any obscurity in my posts. | |
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kchaz
Just...Be
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-12
Merced, CA
clubs: | thanks... you can thank a lawyer for this...bottom line, that's who got the ball rolling on this, and saw it to its end...
--
BBR America's Army Clan: [BBR]KcHaZ | |
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Camelot One
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-21
Sarasota, FL
clubs:
| Just what we need.... quote:
Dell tech can't mention spyware, mention removal products, or tell users how to resolve common spyware problems like hijacked home-pages.
Just what everyone needs, tech support that can't tell you what the problem really is, or how to easily fix it. Yep, sounds like Dell to me.
--
AMD XP2500+ @2300mhz/ Asus A7N8X Deluxe rev 1.04/ 2x 512Mb Kingston HyperX PC3500/ WD 120Gb on serial/ Gainward GF4 4600/ Enermax 465P-VE/Custom water cooler | |
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Tech4769
@rr.com
| Re: Just what we need.... What people have to realize is that spyware is put on your computer by....YOU. Why should Dell or anyother OEM or ISP be responisble for removing it expecially when everyone will just bitch if it doesn't work. Dell is just being smart here. We do the same thing at the help desk i work at....or tell them to do a search for spyware killers...but that's it! | |
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MortySnerd
join:2001-07-26
Mclean, VA
1 edit | How does this violate the EULA? Does the EULA of spyware contain a phrase that says "If this software sucks, you may not uninstall it?"
Netscape 4.x crashes every 20 minutes. If I tell someone to upgrade to 7.1, is that a violation? If not, telling someone to remove spyware that's causing problems shouldn't be any different.
I wasn't aware that bad software was legally protected from recommendations to uninstall it.
EDIT: If they're worried about violating the EULA of Kazaa, they should at least be able to say "In order to legally advise you about this, I'm going to have to recommend you uninstall Kazaa, in addition to the following applications" If they balk about getting rid of their favorite p2p, then Dell should just say "Well then I'm afraid you'll have to live with the software you've installed". Simple as that.
--
This light dinner is over. | |
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FLECOM
Bay Networks Freak
Premium
join:2003-03-03
Miami, FL | Re: How does this violate the EULA? if you have enough money and lawyers anything, no matter how illogical, is possible =\ | |
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pianotech
Pianotech
Premium
join:2002-12-30
New Castle, PA
| "I wasn't aware that bad software was legally protected from recommendations to uninstall it."
It isn't. But most software that contains spyware specifically mentions in the EULA that disabling the spyware is prohibited. That's the issue here. If you take the time to read the article  , it concerns Dell's non-support of removing spyware, not removing applications that contain it.
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Let's give government back to the people. www.lp.org | |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | DELL Computer Setup Instructions
1. Unpack and hook up.
2. Download latest hardware drivers.
3. Reformat drive and reload O/S.
4. Load useful software.
This works for most new computers. | |
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The Folsom
Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
Yucaipa, CA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| New Computers Makes me want to buy a full copy of the latest OS just clean install over the spyware laden OEM crap, or find some hotshot, spend a few extra bucks and hire him to build a custom machine for me.
As long as people want to buy cheap "cookie-cutter" machines, manufacturers will continue to Bundle in that crap.
The hotshot custom builders are looking better and better the more I think about it.
I hate bundles!
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. Take a look at these sites: »www.prepaidlegal.com/info/kfolsom (Pre-Paid Legal Memberships)»www.prepaidlegal.com/go/kfolsom (Business Opportunity)»www.folsomtech.com | |
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See 11 replies to this post |
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Luckhunter
Premium
join:2002-11-29
Lakeland, FL
·RoadRunner Cable
| Branded Pcs a good choice for a novice I don't understand some people's response the at more people should build their own PCs. For some the only viable choice is to buy a branded PC, for the warranty and the support - however limited it may be.
I can understand Dell's decision to limit support for customer's mistakes - it creates liability. A PC manufacturer should be responsible to support the hardware and software that shipped with the system - not everything that the user installs once they get it home. As far as a corporation suggesting that they use something like adaware or spybot - once they do so they can become liable to support that application and any potential questions/issues
that come of it's use.
Many suggestions were made for people simply not to buy Dell (or other namebrands) and to build there own systems - or have them built. This is not the answer for a user that isn't savvy enough to know how to remove spyware - or at least know where to find out how. How does having a clone system (with no support) leave them in a better position that a branded system with limited support?? Sure you say ... "it's my friend (cousin, aunt, aquaintance) If they call me I can help them with it - I am not worried about liability ..." Would you refuse to help them if they called you with a problem (that they created) with a Dell? Sony? HP? If you build their system exactly where do you draw the support line?
Simply put when a person that does not have the time or inclination to learn how to fix their system (that they munged up)they just might have to pay to have it set right. Either with time and research or pay a technician. | |
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zentec
join:2002-01-05
Monroe, MI
·Verizon Online DSL
| Not Dell's Problem For too long PC users have had their support subsidized by their PC manufacturer or their ISP. Really, is it Dell's problem that a user was tricked or unknowingly installed this garbage on their system?
It's unfair that these higher support costs are passed onto consumers with enough wits to actually *learn* the proper operation of a computer and are savvy enough to use virus scanning and know how to keep malware off their systems.
I think the only way to stimulate people's awareness and responsibilities of owning a PC and participating on the Internet is to require that issues such as these be paid support only. Only when it hits the idiots in the pocketbook do they start to understand.
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Luckhunter
Premium
join:2002-11-29
Lakeland, FL | Re: Not Dell's Problem | |
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| Taranis
join:2001-12-06
Mount Vernon, WA
| Quote: "I think the only way to stimulate people's awareness and responsibilities of owning a PC and participating on the Internet is to require that issues such as these be paid support only. Only when it hits the idiots in the pocketbook do they start to understand."
...that's damn right.. | |
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| eburger68
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-28
1 edit | zentec:
You wrote:
said by zentec :
For too long PC users have had their support subsidized by their PC manufacturer or their ISP. Really, is it Dell's problem that a user was tricked or unknowingly installed this garbage on their system?
You've got it precisely backwards. For too long PC manufacturers and others in the computer industry have had their tech support subsidized by an army of unpaid volunteers all over the internet and within communities across the nation, volunteers who effectively keep their equipment and their software running for their customers. If this army were to pack up shop and refuse to help these companies' customers, these companies wouldn't be able to sell their products because consumers would quickly figure out that the products they were being asked to buy were unusable.
Tech support at major PC makers is dismal and heading downwards. If they want to make a buck off these people, they can start treating their customers with a sense of responsibility. Profit without responsibility is not an ethical choice here.
And what's truly sad is that Dell isn't even being asked to assume major responsibilities here; they're merely being asked to point users in the right direction instead of keeping mum about problems on the users' boxes. That's hardly burdensome or onerous.
Responsibility isn't only for little people. Stop making excuses for corporations.
Eric L. Howes | |
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ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
clubs:
 ·magicjack.com
·AT&T U-Verse
·Comcast
·AT&T Midwest
 ·HughesNet Satellit..
| I always tell clients... Whenever a client insists on buying a "famous brand" PC system. I warn them of the hazards first. 1)Price 2)Upgradeable issues 3)Software you'll never use that's preloaded and a pain to uninstall 4)Usually no loaners are offered when computer gets sick 5)Spyware & Tracking software.
I purchased an overstock case of 50 Dell Desktop PC's a week ago. Opened up one Set it up as a Loaner, and deleted all the SpyWare, Tracking software and You'll never use-ware. Ran Spybot & AdAware & RegCleaner, and removed a whopping 151 total useless items. 43 Tracking Cookies, 23 AdBots, 51 Related Entries, 31 Orphaned Entries, Alexa, Gator, & XDialer. Not to mention that there were 13, I say THIRTEEN programs running in the system tray resulting in a 68% SRF (only 5 of them needed to be running the rest was junkware).
The first poster has it right. If you don't want the headache, then don't buy a Dell. Cause, DUDE!!! You're getting ripped off!
ctceo
Team Tronix
--
SuperMicro P4QH6 w/Quad Xeon 3.06Ghz, Gainward FX Ultra 1600 AGP 8x Video 256 DDR, 1GB DDR memory, DVD-RW, Audigy II Sound, 180GB SATA Hard Drive, 27" Flat Panel or Independent 3D Glasses. It may be a bit much, But it's the ultimate in gaming experiences! | |
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captnhook
join:2001-02-20
NY | Re: I always tell clients... | |
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ctceo
Premium
join:2001-04-26
South Bend, IN
clubs: | We do mostly donations & computer recycling. As for those specific Dells we got a deal on them directly from the VAR as part of our donation drive, and they have already been allocated to our x-mas day donations... | |
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viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| Did Gator get to Dell???? I wonder if Gator went after Dell? Gator is using strong arm tactics against companies and anti-spyware websites for saying that Gator is spyware. The website PCPitstop is one website in particular that was forced by Gator to remove instructions on how to uninstall Gator and for calling Gator spyware.
Why can't they just offer a honest to goodness computer? A computer that just offers the OS and that's it. Then the computer user will have a choice what they want installed on there computer. Why does it have to be laden with all these extra no nonsense programs with adware and spyware? Most of us don't use all that extra garbage anyways. All it does is eat up bandwidth and make your computer run like crap.
You can do what I did on my Compaq computer. I reformatted the hard drive then only installed Windows XP. Then I picked and choose what I wanted extra like a music player software, cd burner software of my own choosing, not the software that was on the Compaq install disks. Not only did the computer work great, I say it worked fantastic. Didn't have to worry if I was going to install all this spyware cause I knew what I was installing.
It's amazing how companies want to invade your privacy. It's sounding like a telemarketer in action, and we all know what we think of telemarketer's. | |
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The Folsom
Kindly Shut Your Noise Hole.
Premium
join:2003-01-31
Yucaipa, CA
·Verizon FIOS
| Re: Did Gator get to Dell???? said by viperpa33s :
You can do what I did on my Compaq computer. I reformatted the hard drive then only installed Windows XP. Then I picked and choose what I wanted extra like a music player software, cd burner software of my own choosing, not the software that was on the Compaq install disks. Not only did the computer work great, I say it worked fantastic. Didn't have to worry if I was going to install all this spyware cause I knew what I was installing.
That's what I did with my Compaq 7478. It has a 533 MHz clock, and ran slower than I was happy with, so I wiped it down(I have subsequently installed a 120 GB drive, and got rid of the OEM HD) put on XP Pro, and just like you, picked and chose the software I wanted to have. It runs as fast as it can with what it has.
This type of procedure is not for everyone, though. If I were to ask my father-in-law to do this, it would be like deer in the headlights. He has no clue what to do, but he does know how to use his machine, and I always advise him on safe computer practices.
He has a Dell, BTW. As long as he has owned it(six months), he has not had to call for tech support. That is partially because I tech for him, but mostly because his machine has not displayed any aberrant behavior; he calls on me when he sees something he is not expecting or does not understand.
We got rid of all the junk and spyware and all the bull$hit he would not need or use. I guess you could say that I 'preoptimized" it for him.
--
I once accidentally spilled spot remover on my dog and he disappeared. Take a look at these sites: »www.prepaidlegal.com/info/kfolsom (Pre-Paid Legal Memberships)»www.prepaidlegal.com/go/kfolsom (Business Opportunity)»www.folsomtech.com | |
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| 
91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
1 edit | said by viperpa33s :
You can do what I did on my Compaq computer. I reformatted the hard drive then only installed Windows XP.
Installed XP? That's the biggest piece of spyware ever made to this day!
Why? Just read this and other articles exposing XP and Microsoft's plans to control how YOU get to use YOUR computer.
»www.againsttcpa.com/ | |
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viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| You are right, Windows XP is spyware and it will only get worse before it gets better. I would use Linux but Linux doesn't support allot of games that I play. I can make my computer a dual boot, but I haven't got to that point yet.
At this point I would rather have Windows XP as spyware than something like Gator which is the worst case of spyware we know. | |
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91439306
15,000 Watts of Bass Power
join:2002-10-16
New Milford, CT
| Re: Did Gator get to Dell???? XP is a sleeping viper right now. It's got programming hooks in it that could enable MS to change the terms and conditions; for instance, XP could be changed to a rented application, where you must pay per use. XP seems harmless enough now, but it's got the enabling technology lying dormant now for a full-scale control over what you can do with your computer, what other computers you can interact with and how much it will cost you to use your computer and the applications on it.
MS wants to move us to a 'rent only' mode of use and XP is the OS to equipped start that trend.
--
Take care,
Mark & Mary Ann Weiss
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: »www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
'»www.dv-clips.com
'»www.mwcomms.com
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mrljcsi
join:2002-10-19
Saint Charles, MO
| Build it Yourself | |
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See 15 replies to this post |
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Theo25
@attbi.com | They Shouldn't Support It They shouldn't support it, just because they sell you a pc doesn't mean they are responsible for what you do with it, what you install, or what spyware you pick up. I would never expect a pc manufacturer to support this. | |
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major marco
Res Firma Mitescere Nescit
Premium
join:2003-02-13
Stepford, CA
clubs:
| Non-Issue First of all, Dell "tech support" isn't. If you call with a question that involves any kind of crtical problem resolution then the dothead "tech" with the thinly disguised fake British accent (because your call center was offshored to India, dude because they work for 1/3rd of what Dell would have to pay Americans) immediately tells you to reformat the HD and reinstall Windows.
Frankly, I don't understand what the uproar is over the policy not to help with spyware removal because if you have to call tech support for help with it, then chances are you aren't even aware what it is or why you should remove it.
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MoveOn.org -DigitalConsumer.org - FTCR.org - Privacy.org - Adbusters.org - Eff.com - Democraticmedia.org - HealthPrivacy.org - Hacktivismo.com - ClearChannelSucks.org - Epic.org | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| moot point for me IO assemble my own computers. I need little if any support.
The one thing I really don't like about over the counter computer is the software package. There is so much that I would never use and would blow it out of the system first thing. I get My stuff at Aberdeen, inc »www.aberdeeninc.com
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I love Irish Terriers, Low Brass, and the electric blue glow of an 866 mercury vapor rectifier tube at night. | |
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| wtansill
Ncc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA
| Re: moot point for me said by Transmaster :
IO assemble my own computers. I need little if any support.
The one thing I really don't like about over the counter computer is the software package. There is so much that I would never use and would blow it out of the system first thing. I get My stuff at Aberdeen, inc »www.aberdeeninc.com
I think that's the difference. Building for yourself is one thing. I can't leave the "day job" to service my small number of clients (approaching 0 at this point!  ) should something break. I recommend Dell because they've done well over the years in getting things fixed quickly on the rare occasion that something breaks to begin with... Thanks for the link, BTW -- I may check it out for personal use! 
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That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony. | |
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direwoof
join:2002-06-07
Brandon, FL | No such thing | |
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Lazarus
Slavin Away
Premium
join:2002-06-18
Westby, MT
clubs:
| Re: No such thing I have worked in tech support for going on 4 years now, and the main thing that I have to say is we license people to use their cars and many other things why not computers. I have thought for a long time that if there was some sort of basic competency test to take b/4 owning a computer it would save a lot of headaches. Actually had one customer call up and when I told her to close all the open windows she actually put the phone down and closed all the windows in the house. Some of the other things I have heard and had to fix on the phone are just as bad. Hopefully as schools get more advanced and those kids start to graduate I will see less calls like this but until I do at least my job is somewhat secure. | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost
| said by direwoof :
There is no such thing as a Brand Name Computer, except of course for a MAC!!! Only Brand Name Componets which is what Dell,Compaq & others use.
You think Apple makes all of the components in their computers? Please. Aside from the motherboard and case, everything else is "Brand Name". | |
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direwoof
join:2002-06-07
Brandon, FL
| Re: No such thing No I never said that, but I haven't seen a non-apple version of a Mac yet. Now how many PC clones are out there. I have spent the last 20 plus years building and selling PC's for a living and I have yet to see why anyone would even want a Dell-Compaq-Gateway or any other so called Brand name computer. I take that back, I keep forgetting that most people are branded by commercials these days and simply can not think for themselves!!!! | |
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Jeremy341
Bye
Premium
join:2000-01-06
localhost
| Re: No such thing said by direwoof :
most people are branded by commercials these days and simply can not think for themselves!!!!
You just keep thinking that. | |
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Hazeleyze
join:2003-05-09
Wauseon, OH
| Used to have a Dell, Never again I bought a brand new Dell 2 yrs. ago and was real excited about getting it. Guess what? Took it out of the box and it wouldn't boot up. Froze up on the splash screen. Called Dell for support. They're first answer was that I didn't buy the monitor from them and that the monitor was incompatable with their computer. I called the monitor people and they never heard of such a thing. Got back on the phone with Dell again for an hour until they had me take the side cover off and mess with the memory, which I'd never done before. Then I couldn't get it back in so it took 2 wks. to get somebody out to look at it. After they put the memory back in, it still wouldn't boot. The tech decided it needed a whole new motherboard and CPU. That was another 2 wks. getting that in. Then Dell started sending me surveys. After I told them I wasn't happy with their service, they quit sending surveys. Wasn't happy with the computer so I sold it after a year and got me a new no brand the way I wanted it and this has been the best computer I have ever had. Yes, it cost me a little more but sometimes it is worth paying a little more to get a better product. | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | Re: Used to have a Dell, Never again i am done with dell, after them cancelling orders, because of pricing, and sub-par support. I think will look elsewhere possibly build my own. Dell is for people who use aol
--
Alright DR. Slotkin do your worst. | |
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hpguru
Curb Your Dogma
Premium
join:2002-04-12
| said by Hazeleyze :
...Got back on the phone with Dell again for an hour until they had me take the side cover off and mess with the memory, which I'd never done before. Then I couldn't get it back in so it took 2 wks. to get somebody out to look at it. After they put the memory back in, it still wouldn't boot. The tech decided it needed a whole new motherboard and CPU. That was another 2 wks. getting that in...
You get the service you pay for. When the motherboard in my Dell died they sent a repairman out with a new MB the very next day. As a matter of fact their response time was less than 12 hours. Same thing when the 56k modem got fried. I received a new modem via UPS the next day.
--
Blue mountains after rainfall - much bluer. | |
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dualsmp
join:2001-08-25
Charlotte, NC
| Format C: ...Reinstall.
I would recommend people just stop buying Dell products. Dell has full control of what goes on a hard drive before it leaves the factory. They are taking advantage of the people who are computer illiterate. "Format? what does that mean?" | |
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