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Comments on news posted 2003-12-19 18:18:13: RealNetworks this week filed a $1 billion antitrust suit against Microsoft, alleging the company used its operating system monopoly as a launch-bed for anti-competitive behavior. ..
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Techless
Like I care
Premium
join:2002-07-19
Hypoluxo
 ·Vonage
| Real networks has prostituted itself RealPlayer is a good product.
Real networks has prostituted itself, taken to trying to take over my and everyone elses computer.
It is a shame that their product will die, but die it will because they chose to trick up the software to take over the uninformed computer users computer.
The uninfomed are a dying breed.
That is exactly what the internet does, informs the uninformed.
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DW SRS • G4R 970 • 4.2.1.10 SPA10• GW 66.82.156.41 • XP PRO SP1a • ICS • Wired & 802.11B Bldg. to Bldg.• Here in Sunny So. Fla. | |
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nizbit
Learn to Swim
Premium
join:2003-09-20
Grainy | Huh? I have a question and a point. I dont think Winamp has any problems. Why doesnt Apple get sued for the same stuff?? | |
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
 ·Optimum Online
| Re: Huh?
Refreshing, snapper! |
said by nizbit  :
I have a question and a point. I dont think Winamp has any problems. Why doesnt Apple get sued for the same stuff??
Because an Apple retailer is free to load Real Player, WMP, Mplayer, or anything else they want on a Mac without Apple threatening to dump their reseller status. Pretty simple, really. Short memories. One of Netscape's main gripes was that MS *PROHIBITED* Compaq, Dell, et al. from bundling another browser on the computers they were selling.
Just to taunt the few that noted how Real is superior in quality, yeah, it is.  And guess what? The Mac version has no ads. Here's what it looks like. Enjoy!
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just a minute | |
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sporkme
drop the crantini and move it, sister
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
·Optimum Online
| Re: Huh? said by nizbit :
So when you buy an Apple, it doesnt come bundled with Apple software?
You entirely miss the point of the lawsuit.
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just a minute | |
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asdfdfdf
@xtraport.net
| Firstly apple simply doesn't control 85-90% of the client operating system market and that, near total control, is at the heart of concerns about abuse of market position.
It isn't simply a question of bundling in and of itself. Bundling isn't illegal. It is about systematically using ones client operating system monopoly to gain control of application software in other areas(such as the browser) as well as using such monopoly power to coerce oems into locking out competing application software in areas that MS wants control or, in the case of java and netscape, where microsoft sees a middleware threat that could render the underlying operating system irrelevant(operating system dominance being the lever at the heart of microsoft's power).
See my links below for the findings of fact and final decree in the US v MS case. | |
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ThirdShifter
Premium
join:2002-03-16
Vernon Rockville, CT | die realplayer Please keep your buffering arse holes! | |
| | enderw50
join:2001-08-30
Albuquerque, NM |  Re: die realplayer
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
| WMP Rules I also hope MS wins.
I have tried several different players, including Linux players on my Linux box.
WMP (9.0 anyway) hands down beats them all. I always find myself returning to it.
Fast loading times, quick buffer times and NO CRASHING unlike mplayer or XMS.
Don't even get me started on RealPlayer.
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Edwards in 2004 | |
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rillbee
join:2003-12-05
Mckinney, TX | Two Scorpions in a ... courtroom. Hope they drag this out one as long as they can. Then maybe BillG and his M$ crew won't have time to spread their usual FUD about Linux. | |
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Maggs
Premium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY
·RCN CABLE
| Re: Realplayer = Poop I hate Realplayer when it popups those New Conent little window in the bottom of my screen, its like a spastic in my firewall software too, always looking to "phone home". The only reason I have it is because www.rte.ie requires it to view their videocasts of news, so as to keep the folks happy. I love 2fm too, which is great, they got all kinds of music. Not much of that poppy BS, CA stuff going on over there. In fact, they are even willing to give the independent artist a try. Plus I even made a request out to my family over there and they put it on the radio which is really cool.
I wish someone would code an open source version of Realplayer that could play those media streams. My favorite player is Winamp, owned by Nullsoft, which is owned by AOL :*.
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Welcome Home Rob. Get Well Soon | |
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Maggs
Premium
join:2002-11-29
Woodside, NY
·RCN CABLE
| Re: Realplayer = Poop
Satans Message |
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Welcome Home Rob. Get Well Soon | |
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viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| The Facts Realplayer isn't telling Microsoft they can't have Windows Media Player. Realplayer is just telling Microsoft they shouldn't be bundling the Media Player with Windows. It's not whether Windows Media Player is better than Realplayer or vise verse.
Microsoft controls 95% of the operating system market. It's a proven fact that in court and stated by companies like Dell, and HP that Microsoft was telling the computer makers what software they could put on the computers they sell. Any software that competes with Microsoft the computer makers weren't allowed to put on the computer. It comes down to, do what I say or else you can't sell Windows. The problems with Internet Explorer and Netscape was a prime example. Computer makers weren't allowed to put Netscape on the computer cause Microsoft said that if you do, then you can't put Windows on the computer or we will make Windows more expensive. Also IE was for free since it was bundled so Netscape had to give there product away for free.
It is also a fact that there is a compatibility issue with allot of programs working with Windows. Since Microsoft made it harder for programmers to make software that was compatible with Windows, Microsoft essentially controlled what was put on your computer. I am not going to deny the fact that allot of programs that don't work are due to bad programming.
It also a fact that if a product is bundled like Windows Media Player that a computer user will tend not to buy a competing product. It doesn't always happen, but more times than not, a customer will not buy another product if a product is bundled. The computer user who is on the computer for more than a few hours a day will tend to shop for a competing product. A part time computer user who is on less than a couple of hours a day will not.
I for one don't use either Windows Media Player or Realplayer, I think they both stink. With Windows Media Player going to DRM(Digital Rights Management) I will definitely not use Windows Media Player. With Realplayer and all there adware and spyware, I will definitely not get Realplayer. The rumour mill was also working overtime when it was said that when Windows Media Player went to DRM that it will start deleting mp3, wma, and avi files on your computer that you were not authorized to use.
Someone also said that Realplayer is acting like SCO. They are both 2 different problems. SCO is suing cause of there own business blunders, and stupidity. Realplayer is suing to have more of a level playing field. SCO sees how well Linux is doing since they dropped Linux, now SCO is trying to get money for it. Allot of the companies that are suing Microsoft I don't agree with but Realplayer suing Microsoft I do agree with. | |
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Yeahwhatever
@comcast.n
| Re: The Facts ___________________________________________________________
It is also a fact that there is a compatibility issue with allot of programs working with Windows. Since Microsoft made it harder for programmers to make software that was compatible with Windows, Microsoft essentially controlled what was put on your computer. I am not going to deny the fact that allot of programs that don't work are due to bad programming.
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Not true. MS has done only their best to provide support to a wide variaty apps. hmmm take DirectX for example... Instead of a programer having to program for 500 different soundcards he could simply just program for DirectX sound sub system and it would take care of the rest. The Whole reason Media/computer tech/ and such is where it is at today is becuase of MS. they could simply say screw you and you figure out how to program for my OS. And telling manufatures that you can't install these particular apps on new systems is Windows is fair play. For example, I make an OS, stable out of the box, but as soon as someone installs non supported by me software on it for resale, which in turn now has the possibilty to make it unstable, is completely undesirable!! I would not want someone's first impression of my software to be bad!! Imagine booting up your computer for the first time and blam, blam, blam, pop-ups appear and you're not even connected to the internet... (e-machine)... or even an error at boot-up... correct me if I'm wrong but if that happened I would return the product and go buy a MAC!! I'm just saying that there are other reasons besides trying to corner a market, which by the way is business as usual for anybody. If MS was not on top of things they would not be the #1 OS. | |
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asdfdfdf
@xtraport.net
| Put your dislike for realnetworks aside... I don't care for realnetworks either. However I don't understand why people would be siding with MS. I would rather have two scummy players fighting with each other than one scummy player dominating.
People seem to be forgetting history again.
MS has been found guilty of anti-competitive behavior in the past.
Notwithstanding what some people here are saying here about netscape inferiority, there is a legal history here that has established MS guilt. There is no point in people making the same endless claims about MS dominating because of their technical superiority. Their guilt has been well established. This isn't simply a matter of opinion anymore, it is part of the legal decision making record.
MS dominates because of a combination of factors which include business savvy, luck, anti-competitive behavior, and what are very close to(if not perfectly embodying) lock-in effects.
Windows is the standard(a standard which previous cases have concluded was partly the result of anti-competitive behavior) and because of incompatibility concerns(sometimes falsely fostered by MS, such as their behavior with DRDOS of designing their software to throw up false warnings to give the impression that DRDOS was unstable with windows or their behavior with intentionally coding incompatibilities into their java vm) software is designed for the MS standard. Simply put, everyone uses it... because everyone uses it, not because it is necessarily technically superior(though I'm not going to claim that all MS products are crap because that isn't true).
»www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34619.html
"PC makers have informed RealNetworks that their agreements with Microsoft have precluded them from, amongst other things, "removing or changing the status of Windows Media Player"; promoting RealOne subscription services during the first run of a new PC or preloading music files encoded in RealNetworks' formats in the 'My Music' folder; or making any player other than WMP the default player."
"Microsoft selectively licensed the Secure Audio Pathway (SAP) APIs, RealNetworks alleges, so competitors "have to run SAP-protected content through Windows Media Player, using Windows Media formats and codecs, Windows Media protocols and Windows digital rights management" according to the filing. For example, Real wanted to offer a plug in similar to the MP3 Creation Pack for Windows Media Player, which Microsoft developed with three other companies. But Redmond only provided the information at a much later date."
Familiar?
Court findings of fact in US v MS
»www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/ms···x.htm#vh
"Therefore, in order to bring the behavior of OEMs into line with its strategic goals quickly, Microsoft threatened to terminate the Windows license of any OEM that removed Microsoft's chosen icons and program entries from the Windows desktop or the "Start" menu. It threatened similar punishment for OEMs who added programs that promoted third-party software to the Windows "boot" sequence."
Also read the kollar-kotelly final decree for the kinds of behavior microsoft is prohibited from engaging in.
»www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/20···cree.pdf
We don't yet know the facts in the case, so everyone is jumping the gun. Given previous MS behavior and the consequences of that behavior it is irresponsible to so casually dismiss this. | |
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cmcgilton
join:2001-03-14
Stow, OH
|  Who's Playing Fair?
•RealNetworks alleged that the software giant has violated state and federal antitrust laws, exploiting its monopoly to restrict competition.
My comments: Absolutely false. The user has total control whether they want to take Microsoft's Media Player or not. As in other postings to this thread, the user chooses it or excludes it as an optional accessory. Real Networks' wants their position to be like that of Sun Microsystems with Java but this is comparing apples to oranges. The problem for Real Networks is that the core technology used in the application involved is significantly different, unlike the browser issue.
The only useful program Real Networks has now is it's Radio @Netscape Plus Player (formerly known as Spinner). This plays streaming music in a multitude of formats the user chooses. And best of all it's FREE! | |
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asdfdfdf
@xtraport.net
| Re: Who's Playing Fair? Theoretically one has a choice about anything. One could, for example, completely delete windows and run linux. This doesn't invalidate the other issues however.
We know that the majority of users stick to the default software loaded on their pre-built machines.
MS knew this when they concluded(as shown in testimony memos) that technical issues could not get users to switch from netscape and that the only way they could overcome netscape's dominance of the browser was to engage in practices, like coercing oems into hiding access to the netscape product, for which they were later found guilty of anti-competitive behavior.
If they are using their position to pressure manufacturers into locking out realnetwork's software at machine boot or hindering desktop access, then they are engaging in the same practices that the final decree was intended to keep them from engaging in. | |
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Yeahwhatever
@comcast.n
| Re: Who's Playing Fair? ___________________________________________________________
We know that the majority of users stick to the default software loaded on their pre-built machines.
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they stick to the defaults because they work! if they didn't they would install 3rd party apps and then post complaints about how MS bundled software is crap, and dosn't work!! Come on, there is no real ground here, If MS didn't get dumped on by earlier anti-trust suits, do you think that Realnetworks would even try their hand at this suit??? I think not. They had plenty of oppertunity to do so a long time now. Why all of a sudden now? maybe because they can't program worth crap ether? Basic... It's an OS, if MS didn't make it part of the OS then it should not be there. Realnetworks entire business is based on the fact that there is an OS out there that 95% of all users use. Do you think that they would be if lets say, 10 different OSs had equal market share. They would have to program for a slew of problems, hence increasing cost. notice how most apps go for windows first(to make money) and then port to other OSs.. If MS did not bundle then we would have to BUY everything we needed to just simply use our computer for day to day activity. imagine that for a min.?? that would suck paying 100 bucks for an OS, 30+ for an internet explorer, 30+ for a media player, 30+ for a simple word program, 30+ for a calculator, 30+ for a defragmentor, 30+ for a paint program/editor, shall i go on?? lets get real here... | |
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Yeahwhatever
@comcast.n
| Copy and Paste I only wish somebody would copy and paste this discussion and send it to RealNetworks. Maybe then they would get a clue about what to do with their software.... Drag and drop it in the recyling bin, start from scratch, and become a partner with Microsoft, atleast that way they would not have to worry about money... hehehe... just kidding... anyway if the judge got ahold of our commments here; he would know which way to rule the verdict!! The whole netscape thing... Netscape sux! but Firebird is moving in the right direction. The start of the Anti-Trust lawsuits years back against MS opened a slew of doors for others, i.e.: smaller credit cards sued VISA,MASTERCARD claiming anti-trust.. along the same lines as the MS ruling. Lets put it this way, all these years since DOS 1.0, MS has had their way with things; but have they tryed to ruin the world with massive power, no.... MS could make life hell for IT people around the world right now, but do they?? no... It would be funny to see Gates give the ol' bird to everybody and quote "go screw yourself! I'm retiring and the company is going with me, hahahahah"... maybe then we could sue him for having a better retirement then us.... I would not want to have his job, always have to be savvy of everything, he must have about 500 different problems within the company to solve and then all the competetors to then deal with.... That dude must take some serious drugs to sleep at night.!! | |
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CjGaughan
Premium
join:2002-12-23
Orleans, ON
clubs: | 1 billion is nothing... even if they do lose....1 billion dollars is nothing to microsoft at the moment. | |
| Wolfe
join:2002-10-17
Seattle, WA
| Gimie a break Wow. YOu know, in my opinion, Microsoft should be able to bundle anydarnthing they want with their operating system. EI, WMP, anything at all...
What's next? The makers of calculator programs goign to start sueing? How about Adobe for the MS Paint program?
GImmie a freakin' break!
Here's a stupid thought. I work in the guitar industry, manufacturing custom electric guitar pickups. Should I be sueing Fender or Gibson or Paul Reed Smith because they include pickups with thier guitars!
Hell...if RealNetworks wins, I just might try it to prove a stupid point!
Wolfe | |
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dsaflksd
| mer! Hey Macintosh has quicktime why dosnt Real Network attack them? lol. People have the choice to go to Real's website click on the little download button and get the program for themselves. I know people who are not connected to the internet so how would they view any kind of media files if no player was included.
BTW RealNetworks' general counsel Bob Kimball is my web development teachers brother.. lol tards. | |
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