Logan 5
Wondering what happens next..
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
The WasteLAN
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
|  Ummmmmmm ok.
What's next? Forcing Microsoft to remove the delivery and read reciept notifications from Outlook???
France.....the Jerry Lewis (or is that Jerry Springer?) of technology......
--
"Many times a good overclock is nothing more than running an 'under-clocked' chip at it's true speed...." - L5, 7/3/04 |
|
Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-02-18
Tucson, AZ
clubs:
| France?
Since when do politicians understand computers enough to make any legislation that affects it. France has other bigger problems...
I mean, really, people will still use the software, or simply stick some web-bugs into their e-mail. Legislation or not...
--
Touch a thistle timidly, and it pricks you; grasp it boldly, and its spines crumble. -William S. Halsey |
|
LrdVader
Premium
join:2003-12-18
San Diego, CA
| reply to Logan 5
Re: Ummmmmmm ok.
said by Logan 5  :
What's next? Forcing Microsoft to remove the delivery and read reciept notifications from Outlook???
That's far from the same thing. Any decent mail client will put in control of whether or not read receipts are sent. If you want to, you can be notified and prompted before any receipt is sent.
These tracking services use spammer-style web bugs and HTML tricks to convince your client to rat you out, even if you've chosen not to send receipts. There's a big difference between requesting a receipt, and trying to sneak one out without your knowledge or consent. |
|
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
 ·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| reply to Logan 5
said by Logan 5 :
What's next? Forcing Microsoft to remove the delivery and read reciept notifications from Outlook???
France.....the Jerry Lewis (or is that Jerry Springer?) of technology......
Outlook's delivery and read notifications are only guaranteed to work within an exchange domain that has been configured to allow it. Even then, both sender and recipient must be in the same Exchange system. Any notifications outside that Exchange system is purely optional on the part of the receiving mail system's administrators and email recipient.
-tom
--
"There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't."
"That's only 2 types of people, moron" |
|
MEDIAN2k3
Where Ya Goin?
Premium
join:2002-12-04
Bronx, NY
clubs: | aol?
doesnt aol have some of these abilitys with their email client? |
|
Zorglub
join:2000-11-18
Fremont, CA
| Okay, I read the French article
The CNIL (acronym for National Commission on Information Systems and Liberties) says that the collection of personal information such as name, OS, etc. without the consent of a person is illegal under French law. Apparently, the service in question tracks e-mail and collects informatin on the recipient behavior/personal information without the recipient's knowledge.
They then go on to say that the use of said software by a company or person located in France is illegal under French law.
I don't see anything earth shattering there. Now, as we all know, a lot people will probably break the law and nobody will care until somebody gets caught and fined heavily. |
|
Logan 5
Wondering what happens next..
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
The WasteLAN
·Pacific Bell - SBC
|  reply to Logan 5
Re: Ummmmmmm ok.
said by lrdvader:
These tracking services use spammer-style web bugs and HTML tricks to convince your client to rat you out, even if you've chosen not to send receipts. There's a big difference between requesting a receipt, and trying to sneak one out without your knowledge or consent.
Any chance of some proof to back this statememt up? I have not seen anything to indicate that this servce is malware or spyware. I'm not saying that maybe it isin't those things, but so far it has yet to be proven because the article has scant real information...
Can you please point out to me where in their Terms of Use for the product that it states that they use spyware or spam tricks? »www.didtheyreadit.com/index.php/···#privacy
Here's a link to a support FAQ that talks about the LACK of spyware in the product: »www.didtheyreadit.com/index.php/···#spyware
--
"Many times a good overclock is nothing more than running an 'under-clocked' chip at it's true speed...." - L5, 7/3/04 |
|
Logan 5
Wondering what happens next..
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
The WasteLAN
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to Zorglub
Re: Okay, I read the French article
Just because France ruled that this company's product is illegal for use in their country, DOES NOT mean that the product itself is inherently bad, it just means that France is paranoid about having emails potentially come back to bite them in the arse..
Go figure.
--
"Many times a good overclock is nothing more than running an 'under-clocked' chip at it's true speed...." - L5, 7/3/04 |
|
bebenj1
join:2004-07-03
Pittsburgh, PA
| reply to Logan 5
Re: Ummmmmmm ok.
said by Logan 5 :
said by lrdvader:
These tracking services use spammer-style web bugs and HTML tricks to convince your client to rat you out, even if you've chosen not to send receipts. There's a big difference between requesting a receipt, and trying to sneak one out without your knowledge or consent.
Any chance of some proof to back this statememt up? I have not seen anything to indicate that this servce is malware or spyware. I'm not saying that maybe it isin't those things, but so far it has yet to be proven because the article has scant real information...
Can you please point out to me where in their Terms of Use for the product that it states that they use spyware or spam tricks?
Have someone send you an email through this service, retrieve it with an email client that allows you to view the /FULL/ source of the HTML message, and examine that message - you will see that it contains additional HTML tags that were NOT part of the original message.
If you check the FAQ section on the company's site, you'll find "Does it work with non-HTML mail clients" and the answer "in short, no."
A "webbug" is often a 1x1 pixel transparent GIF image. What happens, is that when the HTML document (email in this case) is actually viewed, the client software will retrieve that invisible image. When it retrieves it, the server that it retrieves from then knows that the particular bug being retrieved indicates that the message it was hidden in has been viewed, it will know the IP address of the viewer, what software was used to read the message, etc. (Try »showmyip.com and scroll down - this is all information that is available to a server when an HTML request is made)
In order to also know how long the message was viewed, a more complex approach is required, but the same basic idea holds - something non-visible is added to the HTML of the email message. (for the technically inclined, the only way to determine how long the email was open is to either have dynamic content, IE constantly updated as long as the message is open, or embed some script, IE using the onclose() trigger to reconnect to the server when the message view is closed)
j |
|
rstrandb
Premium
join:2003-04-17
Albany, GA | So I guess certified mail is illegal too?
Hooray for the French, good thing I live in America. |
|
LrdVader
Premium
join:2003-12-18
San Diego, CA
| reply to Logan 5
Re: Ummmmmmm ok.
said by Logan 5 :
Any chance of some proof to back this statememt up? I have not seen anything to indicate that this servce is malware or spyware. I'm not saying that maybe it isin't those things, but so far it has yet to be proven because the article has scant real information...
Sure. Here's a thread from another forum where this service was discussed, including posted full source from a test message showing the web bug:
»www.emailaddresses.com/forum/sho···id=21830
This particular service seems to stop at web bugs, but they have competitors that are slimier. Here's a nice discussion, on the same forum, of readnotify.com, which provides the same basic service but uses dirtier tricks (includes links to some pages dissecting those tricks):
»www.emailaddresses.com/forum/sho···id=22267
said by Logan 5 :
Can you please point out to me where in their Terms of Use for the product that it states that they use spyware or spam tricks? »www.didtheyreadit.com/index.php/···#privacy
Of course they aren't going to say "We use spammer tricks!" in their own TOU. But they don't say they don't, either. The privacy policy says they don't keep copies of messages - which is probably true, since that's not the point of the service. The point of the service *is* to spy on message recipients on behalf of senders, so of course there's absolutely nothing in the policy to preclude that.
said by Logan 5 :
Here's a link to a support FAQ that talks about the LACK of spyware in the product: »www.didtheyreadit.com/index.php/···#spyware
That's really more a question of definitions than anything else. If you define "spyware" as being a program that gets installed on your computer and spies on you, then their statement is true. But note exactly what that statement is. They say that the product doesn't contain spyware, not that it doesn't spy.
It's also worth noting the wording of the rest of that answer: "We respect the privacy of our users." Once again, strictly true, but misleading. They respect the privacy of their users because their users aren't the ones being spied on. They don't say a word about the privacy of the recipients of their bugged messages, since they're in the business of violating that. |
|
Logan 5
Wondering what happens next..
Premium,MVM
join:2001-05-25
The WasteLAN
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| reply to Logan 5
bebenj1: So what if you have outlook 2003 set to automatically block the display of images in the preview pane? Would it not then block the webbug and defeat the purpose of this program?
Also, even if it does contain HTML tags that are not as you say part of the original message, how are they spy or malware?
I thought that the tracking feature was how this software worked..
Or are you saying that anyone who uses a webbug or adds extra HTML code to an email message is a spammer or ???
--
"Many times a good overclock is nothing more than running an 'under-clocked' chip at it's true speed...." - L5, 7/3/04 |
|
KALIROB2k4
Premium
join:2003-06-02
Palmdale, CA
clubs:
| reply to rstrandb
Re: So I guess certified mail is illegal too?
said by rstrandb :
good thing I live in America.
I second that one lol. Looks like the French are feeling a little paranoid. I totally agree its not right, but I mean bugs like this and spyware are just facts of the internet now. If they cant deal with it maybe they shouldnt get on it.:p
--
True we love life, not because we are used to living, but because we are used to loving. There is always some madness in love, but there is also always some reason in madness -Friedrich Nietzsche |
|
LrdVader
Premium
join:2003-12-18
San Diego, CA
| reply to Logan 5
Re: Ummmmmmm ok.
said by Logan 5 :
Also, even if it does contain HTML tags that are not as you say part of the original message, how are they spy or malware?
Neither of us ever said that those HTML tags were spyware; by most definitions of the word, they aren't. They certainly *are* being used to spy on people, though.
said by Logan 5 :
Or are you saying that anyone who uses a webbug or adds extra HTML code to an email message is a spammer or ???
Again, the assertion was not that all users of this service are spammers. Most of them probably aren't. It was that users of this service and other services like it are using some of the same tricks that are frequently used by spammers to track their victims; which they definitely are. |
|
richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| reply to nixen
said by nixen :
Even then, both sender and recipient must be in the same Exchange system.
I don't think so. I've sent stuff to my home e-mail address from work [and I always ask for a read receipt]. And when I got home & checked my e-mail, there it was, the receipt question. Now we are using exchange 2004 in work and I don't think my ISP is using the same and anyway, we're not on the same domain. |
|
Bill_MI
Bill In Michigan
Premium,MVM
join:2001-01-03
Royal Oak, MI | Um.... take a peek how it works....
»www.didtheyreadit.com/index.php?···&affad=1
You add ".didtheyreadit.com" so the email goes through their server. France got this one right. |
|
dervari
join:2000-01-17
Atlanta, GA
clubs: | Just say NO
Set your firewall policies to deny http to didtheyreadit.com
Problem solved.  |
|
nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
·Cox HSI
·Speakeasy
| reply to richk_1957
Re: Ummmmmmm ok.
said by richk_1957 :
said by nixen :
Even then, both sender and recipient must be in the same Exchange system.
I don't think so. I've sent stuff to my home e-mail address from work [and I always ask for a read receipt]. And when I got home & checked my e-mail, there it was, the receipt question. Now we are using exchange 2004 in work and I don't think my ISP is using the same and anyway, we're not on the same domain.
That's a different feature. And, as stated it's purely optional for the remote mail client to honor that receipt notification request. When you are within an Exchange domain, it's up to the Exchange administrators to allow or deny the Exchange specific read notification functions.
-tom
--
"There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't."
"That's only 2 types of people, moron" |
|
r0x0rz
join:2003-03-02
Canada
| reply to KALIROB2k4
Re: So I guess certified mail is illegal too?
said by KALIROB2k4 :
If they cant deal with it maybe they shouldnt get on it
So you would rather just allow spammers and those working with them to grow and grow without even attempting to slow them down? Anything that makes those companies not able to aquire information without my knowledge is a good thing to me.
Nice move by France |
|
Zorglub
join:2000-11-18
Fremont, CA
| reply to Logan 5
Re: Okay, I read the French article
I don't think you understand their law. The point is that it's illegal over there to collect personal information about anybody without their consent. It's a very strong privacy law, some of which we could use out here where anybody can get your SS and other personal info for $50 on the net.
However, it has nothing to do with e-mail biting... |
|
