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Comments on news posted 2004-09-30 14:13:36: A Comcast digital phone E911 mixup has resulted in the death of a baby, claims one mother, after her frantic call was routed to the wrong dispatch. ..
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diecomcast
@attbi.com
| who's fault. comcast or lady? Normally I would blame the lady for being ignorant, but comcast and a couple incumbant monopoly VoIP providers market their phone service as real phone service. I have neighbors who got VoIP from comcast thinking it was bo different than a POTS line... | |
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72276539
Premium
join:2001-01-19
Atlanta, GA
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? Thats the real problem, all these VOIP companies are marketing their 911 solutions as actually working... yet if you look around these forums you can plainly see they do not. Maybe they should advertise the 911 service as best effort, it'll help from the liability standpoint.
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some people believe in astrology others believe in technology some people believe in all those -ologies but i believe in swordfish | |
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Corvus
Flaming Tards Since 2003
Premium,VIP
join:2003-11-26
| As an early adopter and father of a 7 month old girl, I've ditch POTS but rely on cell phone 911 number. It's working properly and it's adding only few seconds of waiting.
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Jesus saves, but only Buddha makes incremental backups. | |
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dispatcher_21
@209.74.x.x
 from:
Eric 
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? How does a cell phone resolve the problem? I work for a 911 call center and I get more mis routed calls from cell phones than anything else. Besides that, most comm centers are not phase ii compliant for wireless yet so no location shows up. Do you and your family a favor and get a regular old phone line. In real emergencies, they are the best. | |
| | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs:
 ·Comcast
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? cell phones are actually mis routed a lot due to passing off of the cellular towers. And the location you see on your screen is the general vicinity. Cell phones can be accurate down to 90 meters at 75 mph  .
Cingular in my area provides the service with the help of TP equipment and It is very accurate from my experience.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
| | | | | kherr
Premium
join:2000-09-04
Collinsville, IL
clubs: | Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? The key phrase here is CAN BE.
Just because something can be done, doesn't mean that they will spend the money and do it. | |
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Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
·Comcast
1 edit | cell phones don't work any better In many areas in the US, cell phone 911 works no better than VOIP because, while the phones support GPS, the call center and cell towers do not.
There was a good example happened in NJ, where it took 3 days to track down the location of a 911 cell phone call made by a child reporting that her mother was hurt (which fortunately turned out to be a prank call).
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The Comcast Disney Avatar has been retired. | |
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zemus
join:2001-01-13
Brooklyn, NY | Re: cell phones don't work any better cell phones uses E911. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: cell phones don't work any better Which can only guess, through triangulation or sporadic GPS, where you are, at best. Many areas still have no reasonable means to locate cell phone 9-1-1 callers, and here in California all cell 9-1-1 calls are routed to the State Highway Patrol, which sometimes has unbelievably long call queues.
Run for a landline if you can. Know the limitations of whatever non-circuit switched service you are using.
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Wills
join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? It doesn't make a difference what you keep or what you don't. If your screwed...your screwed.
What do you do in our case down here in Florida with Hurricane Charley? For some silly reason, my phone line still worked, yet the cell phones wouldn't. Power was out so you can forget VOIP.
But even that could have easily gone the other way with the POTS being down and the cells working, which is usually the case.
You could have all three. VOIP, POTS, and cell, and still not be able to call during a natural disaster such as a hurricane, tornado, or earthquake. I'm sure Anjou, QC doesn't see these to very often, but you get the point.
So you do what I do. Have a 4x4 capable of climbing over most fallen trees and live three blocks away from two major hospitals. I can get to the hospital in better time than a 911 responder anways. Because with kids, they don't just "kinda" hurt themselves, they either don't do it that bad or they go all the way.
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Abit VP-6 twin 800EB's @ 1002 Mhz.Proud member of the XDC. | |
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Corvus
Flaming Tards Since 2003
Premium,VIP
join:2003-11-26
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? said by Wills :
You could have all three. VOIP, POTS, and cell, and still not be able to call during a natural disaster such as a hurricane, tornado, or earthquake. I'm sure Anjou, QC doesn't see these to very often, but you get the point.
I expect to see some snow at the end of the month  But yes, I got the point, the best 911 dispatcher is yourself.
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Jesus saves, but only Buddha makes incremental backups. | |
| | | | | ihaddsl
join:2001-12-05
/dev/hda0
·Comcast
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? I'm not sure if you are calling the mother stupid or the dispatchers...
from the available evidence it appears the dispatchers bounced here around, not her.
Regarding the 2 minutes, I had to call 911 for my son a while back and they arrived in less than 2 minutes (the fire station is about 2 blocks away).
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Kerry/Edwards | |
| | | coolqf8
join:2003-11-26
New York, NY
| You clearly know little about anatomy and oxygen...
With a fully blown adult: If revived under 15 minutes much of the brain activities are still intact, after that the brain starts to die.
I've called the police and in 4-5 minutes they've coming to my house. The ambulance came in 10 minutes, BUT it was explained through other sources that if we had stated someone was shot or bleeding or even dying they would have come probably at the same time or before the police.
So... taking 4-5 minutes instead of 6-7 minutes is cutting the wait time by as much as 33% east. In other words, that's a LOT!!!
Don't think in 'nominal' #, think in real #s.... | |
| | | | RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
 ·XMission
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? From a Red Cross CPR training manual (and what I was taught for EMT):
0-4 min Clinical death, brain damage not likely
4-6 min Brain damage probable
6-10 min Biological death brain damage probable
10+ min Brain damage almost certain.
There are exceptions, like age and temperature, which is why that wording was used. A two year old was pulled from underneath ice after approximately 15-20 minutes had passed. There was only minor brain damage identified at that time (as I recall the story, could have some minor facts wrong).
The rule of thumb for an adult when I was doing EMT was that if they had not been breathing for over 10 minutes we would not do anything. Of course if there was doubt on that 10 minutes we would still go ahead and attempt to resuscitate. But after about 5 minutes there was increasingly notable damage in most cases. Again, as many people pointed out in this thread, in an emergency people react in odd ways, and time passing is one of the things that is not reliable.
Now as a counterpoint, there are indications that there is more to brain death than is commonly known. Some 'brain dead' people respond in manners that would not be expected, like trying to escape the pain when used as organ donors. Also, modern technology may allow for repair of some forms of brain damage that 10 years ago were definitive definitions of death.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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72276539
Premium
join:2001-01-19
Atlanta, GA | Its pretty bad calling mom stupid, would love to see that said to her face. | |
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inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? yes, but he is an infallible moderator, so he can say whatever he wants and be cool about it. | |
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yock
TFTC
Premium
join:2000-11-21
Fairfield, OH
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? You guys shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on a mod just for being so. It lacks class.
And besides, Are you going to take the media at face value? There are only two people who really know what happened, the operator and the mother. And if the mother was the one interviewed, you can bet the Media is gonna paint a picture of a victim. Should the mis-routing have happened? No. Do tragedies happen? Yes. It sucks, but that's life.
If the mother couldn't keep her composure enough to help save her child, then the bulk of any blame falls upon her. If the 911 operator was not performing her duties for whatever reason, then the bulk of the blame falls on here. My point is you just don't know.
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Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana | |
| | | | | Trivista
join:2003-11-11
Longview, TX
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? We aren't passing judgement simply because they are mods, we are passing judgement because this mod isn't following this sites TOS. If he can't follow the TOS, he should not be a mod.
From the dslreports TOS:
All users of dslreports.com agree to follow the Terms of Use. If you do not agree to abide by the Terms of Use, do not use dslreports.com. Users represent that they have read, understand, and agree to all legal disclaimers. Users agree that they will not post any material that is defamatory, infringing, obscene or otherwise unlawful. If you post material, you represent and warrant that the material you post is not defamatory, infringing, obscene or otherwise unlawful and that you have rights to post any material you supply. dslreports.com may, in appropriate circumstances and in its sole discretion, terminate the accounts of users that infringe or otherwise violate such rights of others. dslreports.com reserves the right to remove any postings for any or no reason. Users may not post third-party links which use trademarks of dslreports.com or otherwise could cause confusion, wrongfully imply and endorsement of goods and services, or contain defamatory, obscene or illegal material. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? First, attempting to defend a statement by pointing out that it wasn't clear or coherent enough to attack is a really weak defense.
Second, read the article behind the second link. You'll find that the call went to a PSAP that was FORTY MILES away in the Denver metro area. Even if the mother was completely coherent, it's quite likely that the dispatcher had no idea which ambulance service should get the call and was forced to transfer the call to a closer PSAP. As it happened, the call had to be transferred a second time, too.
The article also highlights how Comcast had already been informed of this problem a month before.
There was stupidity here that far surpassed any level of stupidity assignable to either a distraught mother watching her child die or a dispatcher frantically trying to help someone forty miles away in a congested metropolitan area.
I'm as much a believer in personal responsibility and logical approaches to problems as anyone, but here we have a situation where the approach specifically designed to assist a frantic mother failed miserably because someone was lazy, careless, or cheap--twice over. (First when setting up the account, second when ignoring the month-earlier report.) The personal responsibility we need is huge punitive dollar awards to make the company realize how serious this is, and criminal negligence charges against the responsible individuals to make the people working there realize how critical this is.
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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Wills
join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL
| said by yock :
You guys shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on a mod just for being so. It lacks class.
You shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on a mother's reaction to her baby being in a life and death situation. It lacks class.
And compassion.
It would be wrong of me to wish you in the same circumstances as her to see how you react so I won't do that.
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Abit VP-6 twin 800EB's @ 1002 Mhz.Proud member of the XDC. | |
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yock
TFTC
Premium
join:2000-11-21
Fairfield, OH
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? said by Wills :
said by yock :
You guys shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on a mod just for being so. It lacks class.
You shouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on a mother's reaction to her baby being in a life and death situation. It lacks class.
And compassion.
It would be wrong of me to wish you in the same circumstances as her to see how you react so I won't do that.
I'll actually agree with you, I lack compassion in this instance. For what it's worth, I think the mother should have risen to the occasion. There is no single more important person to that child's survival than its mother in that instance. While it is tragic that the child died, the mother should have kept her composure and took control of the situation. Panicking does no one good and usually results in someone getting hurt.
There is nothing worse than a dead child, but blaming the system is only half of it. That mother should not have relied on someone else to save her child's life. If it were me, after about 30 seconds of run around on the phone I'd have hung up and sped off to the ER in my own car....traffic tickets be damned, at least I may have saved the child's life.
She deserves to share the blame, pure and simple. She does NOT deserve to profit from its shortcomings.
--
Statistical correlation need not imply causation.
Technical Nirvana | |
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trparky
Bite My Shiny Metal Ass
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-24
Cleveland, OH
clubs:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
1 edit | Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? What I don't understand is...why didn't the woman just go to the next house over? I mean, someone must have been home next door to call 911 on a standard phone line.
That would have been my first action, I would have said, "screw this" and probably literally plow my front door down.
Yes, to call the mother "stupid" is stupid in of itself. Yes, I realize that the technology is not perfect, but you can't blame everything on it; sometimes you have to take things into your own hands.
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WedgeAntilles250
Tom's Rant | |
| | Jarhead
join:2001-10-24
Herndon, VA
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Basically If she gets her bill from Comcast at her correct address and Comcast entered her E911 differently than its their fault for the bouncing of the calls. I think its kinda basic common sense. Her Cable and phone bill from comcast are not separate. How the hell is your address different within Thier database. She didn't have to say hey I have cable at this address and your VoIP at this one. The screwed up. However It needs to be determined if the call had been routed correctly that A) EMS would have responded in time and B) They would have actually been able to save the baby. My heart goes out to her and her fam. And she's trying to find fault instead of determining why the baby stopped breathing. | |
| | | | | | | BosstonesOwn
join:2002-12-15
Everett, MA
clubs: | Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? No let's be realistic. She is finding fault and trying to make some $$$$ for losing her kid I bet.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" | |
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JTRockville
Data Ho
Premium,MVM
join:2002-01-28
Rockville, MD
clubs: | Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? I think it's unrealistic to believe that a mother, who just lost an infant, is motivated by greed. | |
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Boricua65
join:2002-01-26
Puerto Rico | Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? Usually with these kinds of tragedies, the term sue always comes up. Unfortunately, we live in a litigious society. | |
| | | | | | | | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? said by Boricua65 :
Usually with these kinds of tragedies, the term sue always comes up. Unfortunately, we live in a litigious society.
Do you know why we live in a litigious society?
One reason is that companies don't care about their consumers. They just want to make money but those pesky consumer laws make it hard. It would be so much easier to lie and trick people.
The ONLY thing a company understands is money. The only way for them to learn is to take it from them.
Yes, some people are greedy but look at Comcast. First thing they will say is, "Not our fault." They made a mistake, the refused to correct it and they got caught. Plain and simple. Their ONLY motivation to correct the problem is the possibility of a monetary penalty. | |
| | | | | | | | | B777300
join:2002-01-02
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? said by moonpuppy :
said by Boricua65 :
Usually with these kinds of tragedies, the term sue always comes up. Unfortunately, we live in a litigious society.
Do you know why we live in a litigious society?
One reason is that companies don't care about their consumers. They just want to make money but those pesky consumer laws make it hard. It would be so much easier to lie and trick people.
The ONLY thing a company understands is money. The only way for them to learn is to take it from them.
Yes, some people are greedy but look at Comcast. First thing they will say is, "Not our fault." They made a mistake, the refused to correct it and they got caught. Plain and simple. Their ONLY motivation to correct the problem is the possibility of a monetary penalty.
Word.
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Can you say fiber optics? | |
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grcore
New and Improved
join:2003-12-06
usa | "she and her lawyer Dan Caplis, announced they have filed a civil lawsuit in order to correct this. She is seeking unspecified monetary damages."
nuff said... | |
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Yeahwhatever2
| You know, that's sad that her baby died. But here we don't know the situation. in the news post it said that "by the time she got a dispatcher"; "the baby stopped breathing"... which tells me that even if they got the right address, (which they could have just asked her to varify) they may still not have got there in time. They call it the "magic hour" for response. And what happened to cause the baby to stop breathing? We won't know until the trial is over. just my 2 cents. but comcast does suck the big one. | |
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jhboricua
ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-06
Minneapolis, MN
clubs:
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? said by Yeahwhatever2:
You know, that's sad that her baby died. But here we don't know the situation. in the news post it said that "by the time she got a dispatcher"; "the baby stopped breathing"... which tells me that even if they got the right address, (which they could have just asked her to varify) they may still not have got there in time.
That's not what it says. IT READS: quote:
Her 911 call on April 30, 2003, originally went to Douglas County Dispatch, even though she lived in Westminster. That call was then redirected back to Westminster, and then eventually to Adams County Dispatch which sent an ambulance. By the time she was on the line with a dispatcher there, her son Christopher had stopped breathing.
Key word there, as in Adams County Dispatch. So you see, the kid didn't stop breathing by the time the first dispatcher answered, it was several minutes after that.
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Jose A. Hernandez * IT Technician * MPLS, Minnesota, USA * My website: Zerochill | |
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shaner
Premium
join:2000-10-04
Calgary, AB
| Re: who's fault. comcast or lady? said by FutureMon :
said by Goober :
If I thought that my child had died because of some stupid phone service, you'd bet I'd be there wanting to hurt the living shit out of that type of organization.
If you're a parent, you'd understand.
I am a parent, and it is my opinion that the child didn't die because of some stupid phone service. The child died because he stopped breathing. It's called SIDS. There are any number of other conditions that could have led to the childs death as well. We won't know this untill (or even if) an autopsy is allowed.
IMHO the phone service cannot be held accountable for the childs death. While she might be pissed off that she got bounced all over the place, it is no reason IMHO to go off suing them for monetary reward. However, a lawsuit is fine, if it is simply to force them to fix the issue with their service.
- FM
I'm wondering, can somebody sue her for not taking an infant CPR course?
If there was something seriously wrong with one of my kids, first aid starts with me. I can certainly empathise with her situation, but I get the sense she's really pissed off at herself and is lashing out at any reasonable target.
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»www.fiberal.ca »www.canadianally.com »Canadian Wireless FAQ | |
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luis2k10
join:2003-06-21
Los Angeles, CA | I am very likely to have both a fire station and a police station just two blocks away | |
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E_V
Premium
join:2000-09-29
Vancouver, BC
clubs:
| Quote: Her 911 call on April 30, 2003, originally went to Douglas County Dispatch, even though she lived in Westminster. That call was then redirected back to Westminster, and then eventually to Adams County Dispatch which sent an ambulance. By the time she was on the line with a dispatcher there, her son Christopher had stopped breathing.
Reliability is just one of the reasons my landline is not going anywhere anytime soon. What a devastating lesson to be learned regarding how technology moves faster than good sense and diligence. What happened to good old foresight? Very sad indeed.
--
I hope to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am.
Find a Cure
Save Land | |
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cyrus369
join:2002-09-16
usa
clubs:
| mixup This was on the news last night, i think she was in denver and she was routed to 1 dispatch and then to another dispathc and back to the 1st one again. comcast had her address for 911 as a business adress that was like 50 miles away. but now she is sueing everyone which seems to be the practice today.
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Don't argue with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level, and win because of experience. | |
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Slidetbone
Mazin Go
Premium
join:2002-11-10
Land O Lakes, FL | 911; can I take your order?? Same will happen to users with cellphones as their primary means of communication.
Hope this wakes up the VoIP industry.
E-911 also needs a revamp. | |
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See 19 replies to this post | |
Dragasoni
We're All Mad Here
Premium
join:2001-12-14
Rotonda West, FL
| Lawyers Will Jump At Anything... Call me cruel, but I can't stand how lawsuits have become so common in recent years. Verzion, Bell South, Vonage, etc. all could have made the same mistake. But now we must sue Comcast, resulting in higher prices to its customers.
I think people should call their LOCAL Police station and let THEM handle emergencies. They know the area better, and is it really that hard to dial four extra numbers?
-Dragasoni-
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»www.dragasoni.com | |
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See 13 replies to this post | |
DonLibes
Premium,ExMod 2001
join:2003-01-19
| What is E911? I'm confused (and it appears I'm not the only one). The story was originally posted here saying "Comcast VoIP mixup" but the linked article says nothing about VoIP. Then someone changed the story here to "Comcast E911 mixup." What IS E911? How is it any different than traditional 911?
I thought the only problems with 911 were from using it with cell phones. But Comcast doesn't offer cell phones (right?). So what's the problem? If Comcast is just supplying normal 911 service like a traditional phone company, why is this routing mistake newsworthy? | |
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See 14 replies to this post | |
jinjimbob
Troy Mcclure
join:2001-11-13 | Simple Next time use her cell phone. | |
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See 9 replies to this post | |
DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | regardless I have all local emergency numbers programmed into the phone. Everyone should do this, even if they dont have an voip service.
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Go back to HS, just start a political discussion. It will be just like you were a kid! | |
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rec9140
Provoice just DO it
join:2003-07-29
Mulberry, FL
| Re: regardless said by DaveNJ :
I have all local emergency numbers programmed into the phone. Everyone should do this, even if they dont have an voip service.
What "number" is "programmed" into the phone(s) ? ?
911? Or some 7/10 digit number?
Have your verified that this is a number answered 24/7?
If its a 7/10 digit direct dial number, then you've already placed your self SECOND in the telephone number line queue.
This line is also normally shared between ALL the alarm companies, plus ALL the 911 cellular (UNLESS your local PSAP AND cell carriers have implemented TRUE cellular 911 services via Phase 1 or Phase 2, which is VERY FEW), *PD, *HP, etc. type calls.
Just as an example from a PSAP
1) 911 Lines, 12 total 911 trunks
2) 7/10 digit "alarm lines", 7 total
3) Non Emergency admin lines, 10 total
911 gets answered FIRST, and ABOVE any thing else. If the 7/10 digit alarm lines ring off the hook, while 911 calls are coming in, so be it. 911 gets 2 rings max to be answered. It only takes one little accident on a major road to clog and busy out the 7 lines from all the "cellular police" driving around.
This incident highlights exactly why the VOIP operators should cease immediately their marketing & offering of 911 type or like services on thier VOIP services. The lawyers are going to have a field day with them. Otherwise they are going to have to make the needed connections to the 911 tandems and SS7 system(s) for E911 to properly pass off these calls to the correct 911 or other dispatch PSAP. This means, FEES are going to be added to the service. Since most people are only looking at low cost with huge dialing areas v. safety in an emergency I doubt more costs is acceptable. This incindent will also likely lead to an investigation and possible regulation like the ILEC's. | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
1 edit | Re: regardless Yes
My LOCAL police and fire are all montiored 24/7. Where i live its 7 digits.
BTW its recommeded also to add your towns emergency number into your cellphone too. | |
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WhyADuck
Premium
join:2003-03-05
| Customers should be responsible This illustrates a gigantic problem with the 911 system - nobody, not the phone companies, not the VoIP companies, not the cell companies, and definitely not the people who run the 911 centers, seem in any way disposed to giving the one person with the greatest interest in having correct information entered an easy way to check on the validity of the information in the system - or, heaven and the government forbid - to route the call themselves.
I mean, when you think about it, people are expected to know where to go to vote, where to go to pay property taxes or obtain building permits, and in general, where to do business with the government. But then we take the approach that we don't want customers to know where their calls are routed when they call 911, until they actually have to make a 911 call.
With VoIP companies especially, and also cell phone and wireline companies that provide a web-based interface for their customers, why not at the very least have a page that gives all the 911 information. For example, it could says something like, "Your 911 calls are currently being routed to:" and then give a name, such as "Podunk county 911 dispatch" or "{state name} State Police Dispatch." Then if the customer thought that was not the right location, there could be a set of drop-down boxes that would let the customer first select the state, then the county (or city), then select what they believe to be the appropriate dispatch agency from a list provided. For VoIP and cell phone customers (who can move from location to location) they could change the dispatch location "on the fly", assuming that the powers that be would get it out of their heads that customers are too stupid to enter the correct informations, while their representatives (who may be in another part of the country) are not.
As I say, the customer has a stake in getting the information right. For landline phones you could have someone verify the customer's proposed changes (since landline phones generally don't move from a fixed location) but I think the presumption should be that the customer is more likely to know what state and county they are in than some company that maintains a computer database. We would probably need some law changes so that service providers would be held harmless if a customer inputs the wrong information, but honestly I think it is just crazy that in this day and age of "instant information", customers are kept in the dark about where their 911 calls are being routed to.
After all, if phone companies can offer instant lookups online to tell you if you qualify for DSL (and even how many feet your house is from the C.O.), why can't they let you see how your 911 calls are being routed? For that matter, why not implement a "star code" (say *91) that a customer could dial, that would give a verbal readout of a numeric code that would correspond to the 911 center that the customer's calls are routed to? Local 911 centers could publish the numeric codes for their service areas (these could appear in the info pages of phone books), and there could be also be a web site where you type in a code and see which 911 center it corresponds to.
I'm not saying the phone companies should be let off the hook totally when there are errors, but it's just plain dumb to think that a customer service rep at a company is going to be anywhere near as interested in making sure that the customer's 911 calls get routed correctly as the customer would be. | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
1 edit | Re: Customers should be responsible ...repetitve post deleted....
CV | |
| | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| said by WhyADuck :
This illustrates a gigantic problem with the 911 system - nobody, not the phone companies, not the VoIP companies, not the cell companies, and definitely not the people who run the 911 centers, seem in any way disposed to giving the one person with the greatest interest in having correct information entered an easy way to check on the validity of the information in the system - or, heaven and the government forbid - to route the call themselves...
I agree with you. Any time I have moved, including my most recent move, I ALWAYS make a test call to 911 to make sure I am routing correctly.
I just moved out of a major city and have a house in the sticks on the border of a county line (my post office is in a different county than I live in, which has screwed up a few things). I made 100% sure that when I pick up my phone and dial "911" I get routed to the proper dispatch center.
While I understand that many people don't think about this, more people should.
Figuring this out at the time of an emergency is NOT the right time.
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Playing the Tuba isn't an art, it's an adventure! http://www.lakesidepride.org | |
| 
techwench
I Work For Food
Premium
join:2003-06-26
Sherman, TX
1 edit | So let me get this straight... said by the denver post:
Daniel Caplis, Staats' attorney, said that while he does not have exact figures for how often this happens, he has heard of other, though nonfatal, instances in which people have called 911 from a standard telephone line and had their calls sent miles away because the system had the wrong address.
And since when did VoIP become a standard telephone line?
I'm sorry if I sound a little cold, but this is what happens when people pinch pennies. Shell out the extra $10/month and get a real POTS line. Not until the methods are proven, and new technological advances actually do become industry "standards".
Besides, the baby died 4 minutes after she placed her call. Even IF she had been routed to the correct dispatch in the first place, they would never have made it in 4 miniutes anyway.
This also wasn't her first time to experience a problem with 911. It's happened to her before: "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me."
I makes me sick how lawsuit-happy this place has become. When something doesn't go your way, sue the nearest neighbor. It's f'ing rediculous.
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www.prissed.com | |
| | electric_dsl
join:2004-07-20
Pickering, ON | Re: So let me get this straight... thats the problem the voip services are advertising a COMPLETE package for a lot less
why should i pay 15++ to get a service they are advertising as being stable | |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
1 edit | Re: So let me get this straight... ...repitive post deleted....
CV | |
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Michael1963
@tci.com | this was NOT VOIP!!!! this is a former ATTBI digital phone. It comes over the cable, but it is not voip guys. The reason that this happened has nothing to do with VOIP | |
| | | achuchma
join:2001-04-11
Tampa, FL
| Re: So let me get this straight... said by Michael1963:
this was NOT VOIP!!!! this is a former ATTBI digital phone. It comes over the cable, but it is not voip guys. The reason that this happened has nothing to do with VOIP
Actually, by telecom standards, it is VoIP. An interface is mounted to the outside of your home, which connects to the cable line. The calls are transported via VoIP technology, to Comcast's own switch. Only AFTER the line hits Comcast's switch, does it enter the local network.
The phone line is not managed by the LEC in any way, shape, or form.
On the outside it looks like a POTS line, but on the inside, it is VoIP.
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Playing the Tuba isn't an art, it's an adventure! http://www.lakesidepride.org | |
| | | |
calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| Re: So let me get this straight... Actually, the "old" ATT voice over cable ran directly on a DOCSIS standard--"data over cable service interface specification." The IP modems also run over a DOCSIS standard--so the old model is "voice over DOCSIS" and "Internet over DOCSIS."
Although the "old" ATT, now Comcast, voice signal was digitized, it's unlikely that that the call in question was ever formatted as Internet Protocol.
This is admittedly, a technical point, but if you can't get technical in BBR, where can you? Besides, the particular problem referenced here isn't limited to either VoIP or more general digital phone services--even circuit switched ILECs can input the wrong address into the ANI/ALI database that the system references when identifying the source of an E-9-1-1 call.
Calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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mouseferatu
Too many cats, Too many mice
Premium,MVM
join:2004-03-16
Im not sure
clubs:
·Verizon FIOS
·Fairpoint Communic..
·Comcast
| Re: yeah 911 is, in most states, a dedicated service. When you call, from a land line, the name and addy associated with that line pops up on the dispatch console. It isn't fool proof, but it tends to work pretty well. You can't block it or alter it, so a little kid can call and PD, FD and EMS will respond.
When you call from a cell phone, it goes wherever it picks up a tower. May be local, may be bounced through to another state. The question comes back "What is your location and emergency", and the individual answers, for example, "High Street, Jonesville". Problem is, there may be three or more states in close proximity, all with a "Jonesville", and likely all with a "High Street". Makes for a potential disaster.
VOIP is still new enough that all of the bugs aren't worked out there. The call in question to E911 was made a year and a half ago, and the article states that wrong routing "may" have contributed to the child's demise. I would surely want to know a lot more about the situation before I made any fast judgements about Comcast's liability, particularly as the lawsuit is civil, for money, not criminal.
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"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crispy and good with catsup." | |
| EAP
join:2000-01-15
Lafayette Hill, PA
| Friggin' Lawyers . . . This lawsuit is BS "He died moments later, shortly after an ambulance was dispatched - a little over four minutes after Staats made her call."
Yeah, like the kid would have lived regardless of an instant magical ambulance arriving. No way. This kid was a goner if he went in only 4 minutes.
Tough break mom. This is soooo typical of Americans today, always blaming others for "accidents" and think they are entitled to money when something goes bad in their lives.
Bad things happen -- kids die. She had an anxious time on the phone. That doesn't equate to "cause of death". | |
| |
dispatcher_21
@209.74.x.x
| Re: Friggin' Lawyers . . . This lawsuit is BS Hopefully you get your medical opinion from the tv show ER and not from real life experiance. Not in this case perhaps but if a medic can there for breathing difficulties and the patient crashes, they can tube em and bag em and breath for them. You would be amazed how many so called "dead" people are brought back with the proper drugs and a speedy arrival time. | |
| | | EAP
join:2000-01-15
Lafayette Hill, PA
| Re: Friggin' Lawyers . . . This lawsuit is BS Greedy lawyer has no 100% proof that an earlier ambulance would have saved this kid's life (you can get an "expert" to say anything). He'll pay an expert to say so though -- and get a settlement from a nervous insurance carrier.
I litigated for years -- I know how the system works.
It is still BS. Where is it written that everyone has a legal right to an ambulance in less than 4 minutes?
Stuff happens. This has greedy lawyer taking advantage of the situation. This is why our tort system stinks.
Moreover, any award should be decreased by the estimated cost of child care till a kid is 18. | |
| | | | xrobertcmx
Premium
join:2001-06-18
Sterling, VA
clubs: | Re: Friggin' Lawyers . . . This lawsuit is BS On your phone bill is there a line item for around $0.50 for 911 service?
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4 More years and we won't have a country. | |
| JPCass
join:2001-01-23
Denver, CO
| Read the linked articles They tell the whole story. Her number was incorrect in the 911 database, it was something other than the billing/service address for her Comcast account, and after an incident a month earlier that revealed the problem she had asked that it be fixed.
We've come to rely a lot on these sorts of systems, when there are inevitably going to be errors. | |
| keyboard5684
join:2001-08-01
Youngsville, PA
 ·Teliax VOIP
·WestPAnet Inc.
·WestPAnet Inc. CA..
| E911, Whats That? We do not even have that option in our area. No E911 service here. Verizon is the local "carrier" but I personally use Vonage.
I do not think this is a VOIP debate, it can happen with POTS, cell phone or whatever. I have called 911 before only to get transfered several times and then finally talk to someone in my county (this using the POTS line).
Really the emergency systems we have in place can fail. Be it an ambulance crashes on the way to save you from a heart attack or a bridge out causes a 5 minute delay, you can always find someone to sue. | |
| lujohnson
N 0 E Q P
join:2002-08-08
Agoura Hills, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Why.... After reading the article, and the different opinions in this thread, I am struck by a couple of thoughts:
...Why trust others with something as important as a child?
Why trust E911 with a non-breathing child's life?
Why trust ANYONE, for that matter, who may be several minutes away, as in this instance?
Key point to remember here is that there was a world BEFORE 911 service even existed. But even then, as now, it is still up to us as responsible individuals to realize that life carries no guarantees. To the extent that any of us can, I think we should always build in contingencies for safety and security.
If you have babies or children in your home, think ahead about the things that can happen. GET CPR training.... READ UP ON SIDS... buy a SIDS monitor.....cripes... do whatever you can to inform yourself and equip your household with routines or devices or training that can save a life when bad things happen. You are far more likely NOT to brainlock if you have even a little lifesaving, emergency or CPR training.
Who said that E911 would EVER or even SHOULD EVER be the save-all and end-all replacement for good common sense preparation. No system, E911 over POTS or E911 over VOIP will EVER be 100% infallible.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for all of us to print and laminate an index card with our address and phone number on it and attach it permanently on or near our telephones so that it can be read back to "help" if ever needed during a panic situation.
Life is extremely dangerous and fragile. Have backup plans folks! | |
| | VirtualLarry
Premium
join:2003-08-01
| Re: Why.... That is another good reason, why the citizens should never let the gov't (local or otherwise), usurp control over their individual responsibilities, like lawful defense of one's person and property. There is a reason why the Constitution provides for citizens owning guns. If you have someone invading your home, why would you wait 10 min for your local gov't "armed guards" to show up (risking getting shot just for picking up the phone), when you could be "taking care of the situation" yourself.
(and yes, I agree, knowledge of CPR and related lifesaving techniques can be just as useful as a gun is for self-defense) | |
| 
Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
2 edits |  A Very old problem
 there is an argument as to who's Public Service units have too report. If they had just one metro dispatch they would not have this problem but each municipal unit has their own dispatch. It really isn't all of Comcast's fault, but I suppose they are the money tree in this incident and it's their E911 system, but it still had to contend with the over all mess. The infighting politicians in the area need to be slam-dunked. They are the major reason for this mess. I feel for the mother in this case, the feeling of watching her baby die while getting shuffled around by uncaring 911 operators must have been terrible.
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»www.gobpl.com | |
| | moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | Re: A Very old problem Don't worry. BPL and VoIP will solve everything. (insert sarcasm here.)  :D:D | |
| 
insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| The way I see it... Since the problem was known a month earlier, the company that handles the E911 service that failed to change it to the real one is the only company liable. Comcast can't be, since the request to fix the address doesn't go to them. Neither can anyone else besides the company that received the request to fix the address and failed to do so. I actually don't see comcast throwing money for a settlement, say they take this to court and prove it wasn't their fault, then that would be a huge win for them. They would be protected from these kinds of problems in the future. | |
| 
Harddrive
Premium
join:2000-09-20
Norwich, CT | This is the lawsuit/situation....... that every VoIP provider hoped that they wouldn't be the first to encounter. | |
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Mychal1963
@tci.com | Re: This is the lawsuit/situation....... Comcast does not provide VoIP in Denver, this is what ATT called "digital phone service" | |
| |
MichaelJohnson
@tci.com
from:
Harddrive
| NOT VOIP, this is not VOIP Comcast does not offer VoIP in Denver at this time, it was standard phone service inherited from ATT Broadband | |
| |
Harddrive
Premium
join:2000-09-20
Norwich, CT
1 edit | Your right! My bad then. Still, someday....a VoIP provider will get into the same hot water for something similar. | |
| 
viperpa33s
Why Me?
Premium
join:2002-12-20
Bradenton, FL
·Bright House
| When not to think of yourself As we can see there is bugs in the 911 system and unfortunately those bugs took a life. No computer system is perfect and no one should expect it to be. Our society is becoming more tech based. We are depending more on computers to do allot of our work. The 911 system is only as good as the person who enters the information correctly.
When any tragedy happens people want to point blame. They want a person's head on a stick. In most cases people don't want responsibility, they shove it off to someone else so they could be free and clear. Then when something bad happens they don't have to take the responsibility for it, they can just blame someone else.
No doubt about it, it's sad when something like this happens especially when it's kids involved. People should have plans if tragedy strikes. Just like you should have a fire plan if your house catches fire. People should be prepared if a medical emergency strikes someone in there family. We should always take extra precautions in life, if not for yourself, for someone else. | |
| | frogli
join:2003-10-12
Yaphank, NY | Re: When not to think of yourself You should call the fire department direct as it can take up to 2 mins for 911 to relay the call to your fire department. | |
| | | 
spg
Grrrr
join:2001-10-31
NOT Texas!
| Re: When not to think of yourself said by frogli :
You should call the fire department direct as it can take up to 2 mins for 911 to relay the call to your fire department.
Great. Next time I need an ambulance I'll make sure I'm in my home town.
And as for cell phones being the answer, out here cell 911 calls go to the Highway Patrol; you'd better know where you are and have enough presence of mind to ask for the right jurisdiction.
Land lines DO have an advantage here; they're fixed in location. (well, duh) They are also tariffed with 911 taxes, the very same regulatory stuff that many VOIPers take glee in not having to pay. My guess is that the ATT system she used wasn't supported by the fee either.
We all know that the tax for paying for the Spanish American War is still on POTS lines, and we probably all agree that that fee should go. but maybe, just perhaps this 911 tariff is a fee that should be paid by all if these types of disasters could be eliminated.
VOIP and the like are new technologies and there are going to be bumps in the night along the way. Personally, I'll take my POTS line with four nines reliability. But that's my choice; I also prefer the blue chips to penny stocks.
But people need to make informed decisions about what they choose in life. And part of an informed choice is full disclosure. | |
| | | | nguyen27
join:2003-05-14
Quincy, MA
| Re: When not to think of yourself said by spg :
said by frogli :
You should call the fire department direct as it can take up to 2 mins for 911 to relay the call to your fire department.
Great. Next time I need an ambulance I'll make sure I'm in my home town.
And as for cell phones being the answer, out here cell 911 calls go to the Highway Patrol; you'd better know where you are and have enough presence of mind to ask for the right jurisdiction.
Land lines DO have an advantage here; they're fixed in location. (well, duh) They are also tariffed with 911 taxes, the very same regulatory stuff that many VOIPers take glee in not having to pay. My guess is that the ATT system she used wasn't supported by the fee either.
We all know that the tax for paying for the Spanish American War is still on POTS lines, and we probably all agree that that fee should go. but maybe, just perhaps this 911 tariff is a fee that should be paid by all if these types of disasters could be eliminated.
VOIP and the like are new technologies and there are going to be bumps in the night along the way. Personally, I'll take my POTS line with four nines reliability. But that's my choice; I also prefer the blue chips to penny stocks.
But people need to make informed decisions about what they choose in life. And part of an informed choice is full disclosure.
I don't think the lady have ATT VOIP here, she had Comcast Digital Phone, that should work exactly the same with the regular POTS line, just the damn E911 that make all the different, I used to have Comcast Digital, one day a Comcast tech told me that they drop a low voltage onto a databox outside your house and give you the dial tone from there, and there I go, back to the basic POTS line. | |
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How much is your life worth?
