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Comments on news posted 2005-03-15 19:00:44: It isn't just security websites and anti-spyware developers being threatened by the Ad/spyware industry: Stationery/Wallpaper website CloudEight notes they're facing legal threats from Hotbar, Inc. ..
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 | | sue?? Hey guys, becareful what you said, did you know that company was base in Tel Avi, Israel. You guys could get sue for anti-semitism. | |
|  Noah VailSon made my AvatarPremium
join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
kudos:1
 ·Bright House
 ·Sprint Mobile Br..
| What is the source? Would someone cite the source for Lavasoft pulling it's Hotbar def's? I've been all over the web, and the only mention I find for it is here.
Perhaps someone who's better at ferreting this stuff out than I am, can point me to the origin of this.
If there's a mention on Lavasoft site, it must be in Sweedish....
Thanks.
NV | |
| RedCape
join:2005-01-29
Huntingdon Valley, PA |  Freedom of Speech Infringement?
As far as I know this is true, but of course I don't have a degree in law or anything so feel free to correct me. | |
| | | Hmmm I work for Symantec and I find it interesting they are not threatening us with legal action. Perhaps they are scared of a Multi Billion dollar business getting pissed off? | |
| |  ff1324Everybody Goes HomePremium
join:2002-08-24
On Four Day
 ·AT&T Southwest
| Re: Hmmm Either that or the Symantec lawyers are sitting around a bar saying "Didya hear the one about Hotbar suing us? HAHAHAHAHAHAH..."
I'm quite sure the scene was played out the same way in Redmond, WA.
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The funny thing about firemen...night and day they're always firemen | |
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 ssj4androidRedefining Reality
join:2002-04-14
Wyoming, MI | Was hotbar always spyware? I remember installing it years ago as a sort of theme for IE. Then I decided it was useless, and uninstalled it. It wasn't spyware then, was it? Go back to being like that. | |
|  richk_1957If ..Then..ElsePremium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith | I had hoped this would not happen.... ....but it did.
Back in the early 60's, there was a similar thing - one ad company said that yyy product was better than xxx. xxx promptly sued yyy, saying that because of the ad, they lost revenue, it made them look bad, etc. Most of these lawsuits never got off the ground, but a few companies disappeared because they couldn't afford the legal fees. After a while, companies learned that it doesn't really pay to sue & have the case thrown out, but it took a while. | |
| ssego
join:2002-01-06
Villisca, IA | there's a difference between adware and spyware? When did Hotbar start informing you or letting you choose to install it? Every time i've removed it form a clients PC they always ask me where it came from. I know I've never been asked if I wanted to install Hotbar.. and I've been INFECTED with it once. Informed choice to install it or not.. what the fook ever. Not only that, but why is it such a pain in the ass to get rid of? | |
| ff1324Everybody Goes HomePremium
join:2002-08-24
On Four Day Reviews:
·AT&T Southwest
| Who's violating what? Maybe Google or Yahoo should send Mr. Oren Dobrensky a letter about their patent...
»www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/···831.html
I'm pretty sure that M$ beat them to the punch as well.
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The funny thing about firemen...night and day they're always firemen | |
|  bentand IngaPremium
join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO
·Comcast
| Get to the Root We need to get to the root of the problem. The ad/spy/crap/malware writers are bankrolled by, guess who?
Your friendly neighborhood mega corporation. If there was a concerted effort to boycott the companies that use this crap to advertise or do "market research" I think things might change. Wasn't there a link floating around to an article detailing which companies use this crap?
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Pura Vida! | |
| |  sweintzPremium
join:2002-03-01
Chester, CT | Funny as hell... from »thundercloud.net/infoave/images/···onse.htm
We got a letter from you last July 2004 asking us to “Cease and Decease” (which we interpreted as Cease and Desist, since telling one to cease and die is not appropriate). You asked to us to remove negative statements about Hotbar no later then December 31, 2004, which we did comply to.
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| | | | Can't adware add a field? OK, why not add another check box.
[ ] Delete AD ware
That way, its up to the end user to determine what to delete. If you an ADware co. you should see no problem with this... | |
| | | Vague EULA terms After noticing the posts run all around the issue of what is and isn't collected, I didn't see where anyone mentioned that the EULAs for most spyware/adware state they are free to change the policy at ANY time without notifying the user. So they decide to change it and load some additional piece of scumware from an 'affiliate', something the user never intentionally agreed to.
I've fought with spyware for years (since it actually became a problem) and I tell you, 90% of the folks that get it do not know HOW it was installed - they claim they never agreed to anything. You let one in, either deliberately or not, and its almost a guarantee that in less than a month, you'll find no less than 3 more unwanted packages.
In my opinion, spyware should be treated no differently than a virus legal-wise ... prosecute the companies that author it just like any other 'hacker'! Until you've been on the recieving end of supporting hundreds of Corporate PCs used by average morons, AND have to keep spyware off of them knowing the only reason it is there is to earn some idiot marketer a couple of cents for every popup it does, you can't possibly appreciate the anger over the wasted time removing this crap.
On the bright side, at least Hotbar is one of the easy ones to kill. | |
| | | | Re: Vague EULA terms There is no question that Hotbar hides the juicy parts of its Terms of Use/License on pages 4, 5, 6, and 7 of this 4500+ word document. Further, its Privacy Policy is 3800+words. Hotbar knows that a great majority of its potential users will not read either document and even if they did most would not understand these intentionally convoluted documents filled with legal-speak. It's fraud and it's deception. Just because its illegal activity is included and spelled out in these documents does not make it legal or right.
Hotbar intentionally deceives and misleads its potential users by putting the "Microsoft Certified Partner" logo on its main pages. Their obvious intent is for the potential victim to believe that Microsoft endorses Hotbar in some way; which of course, is not true. Most people have no idea what a Microsoft Certified Partner is. Hotbar knows this, you know this, and I know this. They count on ignorance to persuade potential victims into a false belief that Microsoft endorses Hotbar. This is intentional fraud.
A while back, Hotbar's fraudulent conduct included a marketing campaign in which they stated they were an "Upgrade to Outlook". Those of us who advise clients on computer safety tell them to download updates for Windows, Internet Explorer and Outlook/Outlook Express. Hotbar intentionally exploited the word "upgrade" to Outlook, when in fact it is neither an upgrade or a Microsoft product.
One thing is for certain. Hotbar is a dangerous and deceptive company which will go to any lengths to line its pockets with ill-gotten gains. They border on criminal activity. One test that was done showed Hotbar installed and icon on the user's desktop for its "WowPapers Chat". Any child could click that link and end up in a sexually oriented chatroom where they are constantly prodded (by popups which appear at random intervals) to provide their Real Name and address. This is against the law in the United States. No one would want their 13 year-old child in a chat room where user names like "BIG_DICK4U" are prowling around. Yet Hotbar makes no mention of this activity yet I have personally seen it. The icon is installed on the users desktop without any mention that it will be installed there. In fact, to de-install Hotbar's WowPapers you have to go to Hotbar's site to download an uninstaller.
The Hotbar company is fraudulent and deceptive. Even its claims of being a New York based Internet company are questionable. Obviously their base is Tel Aviv. Why the deception? This company will go to any lengths to deceive the potential user and get their insidious program installed on as many computers as possible. This is an outrage.
Someone should request everyone who has had computer problems or noticed and spike in spam or unusual computer activity after installing to write to a central address and that someone should file a class-action lawsuit against Hotbar for deception, fraud, and damages. I would think $1 billion would be enough to but these miscreants out of business - don't you?
Hotbar is free to sue me. I'll counter-sue with thousands of others whose systems have been damaged and whose privacy has been violated by this insidious suite of noxious applications. I would dearly to lay a $1 billion class-action lawsuit on this company and put them forever where they belong: Out of business.
Oren? Where are you? | |
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| | Adware vs Spyware... Alright,
After having skimmed this thread I've seen a few things I'll comment on.
First things first, Chuck does have a point. There are a few programs that are legit adware. They do inform you that they are installing and that they will track what you do online, in addition that they'll be forcing pop-ups to your system.
On that same thread, I believe that I've seen two such programs. There are several layers to this entire arguement that need to be looked at to give an accurate account of where people stand...
1. Spyware vs Adware - Are these different? Yes, fundamentally they SHOULD be different. The problem is, is that many of the companies claiming to be Adware are utilizing underhanded tactics to get installed to a system, THIS (and not the community at large) is what has caused so many people to start lumping these terms together. Because I claim to be legit and hide my true intent in the EULA doesn't mean you are.
2. EULA's - This, for me, gets me "hopping" mad. And this blame I point at all vendors. A 900 page EULA really isn't necessary and if it is, there NEEDS to be a "condensed" version of this. Something that doesn't take ten hours to read and fourty hours of research to understand. EULA's need to be re-worked, immediately, to allow for an easier understanding of what is implied by clicking that "I accept button". Adding a line in the middle of page 75 "By installing this software you give us your firstborn, in addition any attempts to uninstall this product will launch a hidden file to re-install this program" is a bunch of crap. Especially, as already stated, when several of these companies imply a very different intention at the begining of their EULA.
3. Removal - Sorry Chuck, you lose on this. NO, NONE, NADA spyware removal tool blanket removes all entries, unless I tell it to. You're complaint is that I'm not giving YOU a choice?! What about the crap that hides itself in the EULA of another program to install and then I cannot remove it? If I'm understanding your perspective, if it's "Adware" nothing should detect it? Then you've taken away MY choice. ALL malware/spyware/adware should be detected by removal programs because I have the CHOICE of letting my software remove it or not... | |
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Just use Proxo and Hotbar doesn't do a thing, but you have your OE skins.