vavoiper
join:2005-03-08
Falls Church, VA
| Muni wireless & landline access
So, if one extends the RBOC logic to access...would a competitor want to be forced to buy access from the same company that competes with it for ISP, voice, and data applications? I say bust em up again! Seperate their access business from their other businesses. |
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bistro777
Donuts-Is There Anything They Can't Do?
Premium
join:2002-02-07
Englewood, CO
| Oh, now I see...
Thanks, Ivan and Ed, for clearing that up... |
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TrainBuff
The New Haven Railroad
Premium
join:2003-05-01
Buffalo, NY
clubs:  | Muni-Broadband
The CEO's of both Verizon and SBC both deny that their companies are stopping communities from wiring themselves up for broadband.
YEA RIGHT! |
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qdemn7
Smurf in My Loop
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Fort Worth, TX
| THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH
All this hand-wringing over the "predatory" practices of BB companies is getting to be rather pedantic. Since I have to admit they (the CEOs) have some valid points.
But generally, we find it unfair that municipalities that regulate us, set our taxes, set our franchise fees, participate in running our company in some fashion also now want to compete with us, under a different set of rules.
These munis aren't simply saying, "Come on in the water's fine, we won't change you a penny". When it comes to taxes, fees, etc, politicians are like crack whores, there's no such thing as enough. You know damn well these munis are going to soak these companies for every damn penny they can, which means of course the BB companies are going to pass that right back to the consumer.
I'm surprised they just don't tell the munis "Fine you want to compete with us, then do it on an even basis. Stop charging us all these damn fees, and we'll stop interfering in your BB community plans."
Like I said, all this hand-wringing is getting tiresome. The BB community access furor is getting more and more of the flavor of the attitude of some Americans who think they are owed "something for nothing", or that BB access is some sort of "right". Which is another aspect of modern society, discovering new "rights" all the time.
Someone needs to remind people of Robert A. Heinleins's famous adage TANSTAAFL.
"THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH"
Just because YOU don't pay, does not mean someone, somewhere else is paying.
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The idea that complex questions do not have simple answers is a meme propagated by those who have a vested interest, i.e; monetary, power, prestige or ego, in complexity. |
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moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | Neither DSL nor cable internet access is regulated. Only the right of ways and the POTS access. |
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ColdFiltered
join:2005-01-25
Atlanta, GA
| Muni = Predatory Pricing? How do we know?
Is it the coined philosophy of municipal broadband projects to deliver a service or set of services for less while making a profit, or to operate the service(s) as not-for-profit?
Definition: An anti-competitive measure employed by a dominant company to protect market share from new or existing competitors. Predatory pricing involves temporarily pricing a product low enough to end a competitive threat.
If the municipalty decides to offer something tremendously below what the free-market agents can offer similar services at and in turn drives them from themunicipality would this be predatory? |
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moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD | For this to happen, Verizon and others would have to "divulge" what it actually costs them to provide the service. Without this disclosure, there is no basis for the argument that is put forth by the telcos or even the cable companies. |
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dg2
Premium
join:2004-01-22
Lowell, AR
 ·Cox HSI
| reply to qdemn7
But I'm already paying for lunch!
That may describe conditions in Fort Worth, qdemn, but out here away from the megopolis things look a little different.
I'm sure in Fort Worth you have a good choice of broadband providers - SBC, Sprint, Earthlink, and your local cable company at least. In that environment I would agree with you. However, out here (and in other areas like Lafayette, LA), Cox charged full rates for 1/4 service until October of last year. While I appreciate the recent upgrades, Cox only upgraded the service after months and months of "hand-wringing", and they started in Lafayette, where Cox and SBC have been battling a muni effort for months. (Go to the Cox forum and search for MAC references for more.)
Why the poor service? No competition. SBC will not activate RTs which have been physically in place and fully connected for months or years. Without the DSL pipe, Sprint, Earthlink, Speakeasy, and a host of others disappear as options. With a captive market, Cox didn't need to spend any money. That's a business decision.
What makes it unfair is that SBC and Cox seem to think they have a right to keep anyone else from stepping in "their territory" by offering service in markets Cox and SBC have deemed unworthy of their service. SBC won't serve? You have to respect their business decision. But don't try to start a muni, because that's unfair to SBC, who won't serve that market in the first place!
I say again to Cox and SBC - Put up or shut up. As for the free lunch, I'm already paying $40/month. I'm just looking for better service, not anything for free. (And I loved "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, by the way. It's about time to read it again.  ) |
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tapeloop
1959. I try to kick the ball. I miss.
Premium
join:2004-06-27
Airstrip One
| reply to qdemn7
Re: THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH
Like any good CEOs Ivan and Ed are quite adept at the 'smoke and mirrors' testimony.
What you and Seidenberg/Whitacre fail to mention is that Verizon/SBC doesn't even provide BB services to some of the areas affected by its outright muni bans. So preemptively usurping a community's right to provide broadband (or any utility) to its citizens--when private companies aren't providing said services--is okay in your book? (This is America right?)
And last time I went to vote, I didn't see either Verizon Inc. or SBC on the ballot. So they don't get to write any laws. Sorry.  |
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batageek
Slave To The Duopoly
Premium
join:2003-01-25
1 edit | reply to qdemn7
Ok wait just a minute....
Who regulates the telcos? Not the munis, but the FCC. This a a complete bs argument.
And to take it a step further, the munis are subject to the same federal & state taxes that any other CLEC has to pay.
As to franchises, give me a break. Franchises are the biggest joke of all because the cities are limited to what they can ask for and what they have rights to demand based again on what? The FCC.
Most cable franchises allow the ability to set the price on the base offering - you know, the package that no one takes (just local channels, etc.)
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»www.tricitybroadband.com |
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woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA |  Hmmmmmmmmm..........................
"Re: Muni = Predatory Pricing? How do we know?"
this all has to do with competition, nothing more nothing less.....No comp=more money and suck service, more comp=less money and better service....
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BlooMe |
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soothsayer15
join:2002-03-01
Irving, TX
| reply to moonpuppy
Re: Muni = Predatory Pricing? How do we know?
Telcos and Cable Companies don't ban any community from operating their own Muni-Broadband System. Stupid citizens and greedy politicians who believe propaganda do. People in this country are so quick to blame everyone but themselves. People keep voting in politicians "just because" they happen to be republican or democrat instead of what they've actually done. All the money these corporations spend only works because people are too lazy to educate themselves, it's alot easier for some to be told what to think. Bellsouth extorting (by removing a Cingular Wireless call center) Lafayette, Louisiana through loss of jobs is not commonplace. Community stupidity is the reason for lack of roll out. |
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majella77
join:2001-10-03
Chicago, IL
| Hmmm....
Does this remind anyone of the time when the CEO's of the major tobacco companies sat in front of congress and denied under oath that they knew anything about the ill-effects cigarettes had on the health of nicotine addicts?
In Illinois, we've seen these blocking tactics firsthand. In the Fox River Valley comunity of Batavia last year, SBC mounted a successful FUD campaign to derail that towns plans to develop a municipal broadband system.
They're liars. |
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TechSponge
join:2001-05-14
Hillside, NJ
| Both of them,
ESPECIALLY Ivan, should be thrown in jail and sued by the states and municipalities they provide service to. These guys ARE criminals. Worse than the Mob.
And im told im a jerk for laughing when I hear about a guy running around cutting lines down with a chainsaw.
ForIvan gets what they deserve. They(and all remaining RBOCs) should be divested of their Infrastructure immediately after they roll out FTTx. |
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sancraig
join:2003-11-05
Saint Louis, MO
| Lobbying
Doesnt mean the same as stopping munis from employing. The real complaint ought to go towards the legislatures of these munis. And if the constituents cant handle being bombarded with ads and still make a effort to find out on their own what their voting on they deserve to get what they get. |
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DaDogs
Semper Vigilantis
Premium
join:2004-02-28
Deltaville, VA
| reply to TechSponge
Re: Both of them,
said by TechSponge  :And im told im a jerk for laughing when I hear about a guy running around cutting lines down with a chainsaw. That don't make no sense at all ... Anyone with a brain understands that a good quality air rifle can do the same job quietly and leave practically no other evidence ...
Just Joking, I love ForIvan.
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Problems with Verizon quality of service? Call the FCC. The number is 1-888-225-5322. BE POLITE! Select option #2 and then when you get the next set of menus "Wait for a Specialist". |
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calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
| reply to TrainBuff
Re: Muni-Broadband
Important clarification: They didn't deny that they were lobbying for muni bans. They only denied that they had that as a blanket policy, saying instead that go after it when they see it.
YEA RIGHT!
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! |
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zshuster
join:2005-01-31
San Jose, CA | unfortunately
I'm not sure they're playing...dumb |
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bluecynicalm
join:2000-08-11
San Francisco, CA
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Verizon and SBC playing, yeah, right!
First, I must agree that the Baby Bells must be broken up once again. What was the purpose of break up in the 1980's if they are going to be allowed to create mergers and monopolize the infrastructure once again.
For Verizon and Mr. Seidenberg, stop your whining about municipal taxes, fees, and whatever else you complain about in life. If memory serves me correct, I do not recall you complaining about accepting millions of dollars in tax incentives for building a fiber infrastructure in the states of New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Since the projected dates and percentage of fiber be installed (unless you live in the $$$$ counties of the state of Pennslyvania), they are far behind schedule.
Since that money was from the hard working taxpayers of the state and was basically a free money handout to your company, I do not believe that you or Verizon has any right to complain about municipalities setting up broadband connections in any form. You are certainly dragging you feet even deploying basic dsl to many customers in the state of Pennsylvania.
Since I have only had to deal with SBC on one occasion, I honestly believe that they are extremely anticompetitive in certain areas of the country. After trying to get DSL for someone in the state of California, I was quick to learn that you could not have DSL of any sort unless you are a customer of SBC. If memory serves correct, other Baby Companies do this as well.
Before I hear the arguement of they built the network, they do not have to allow access to any company because they built the network. I find that erroneous. The networks were built many, many years ago. Hasn't all the money collected for their service paid for this network? Aren't they part of being a Public Utility? I must be losing it every time I read anything where either 2 CEO's cry because money would be taken away for their bonus's and stock options.
That is my opinion. I could be wrong. |
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copperdoctor
Premium
join:2003-12-08
Palatine, IL
| Who Blames the Telco?
If your village hall decided to open a general store and offer cut rates on everything from food and clothing to computers and housewares, I have a sneaky suspicion that BELOVED WALMART and all other stores would pitch a bitch too. Lets keep our access to the internet OUT of the direct control of the government, please.
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»kidcubfan.blogspot.com/ |
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