Topmounter
Sent By Grocery Clerks
join:2001-02-20
Evergreen, CO | How is this different than...?
How is this different than sticking an EVDO card in my laptop and sharing it via WiFi?
I can just see the Verizon guys sitting in an exec conference room and giving themselves a big "DO!" and a slap to the forehead. |
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woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Hmmmm......
If it's in their TOS, they have every right to complain and cut the person off, if not, then don't bitch...
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BlooMe |
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sadkfdkl
@verio.net | I thought "everything" was included in the TOS? Isn't the last line always something like... and if we don't like it, we're taking our toys, and going home. |
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hroo772
Darkness Fears Me
Premium
join:2002-04-05
Mclean, VA
clubs: | The Price...
...of Unlimited data services with verizon is $80 a month. For that much money I think they should be able to use it for what they are paying for. |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| Verizon just doesn't get it.
The Verizon exec is almost as dumb as the **AA exec. "Giving it away for free". Please explain where the 'free' part is? Someone is paying for the wireless access card, thus, verizon is getting paid for the access. What that person chooses to do with their LEGALLY PAID FOR access point is up to the person, not verizon.
If you take away the verizon doublespeak, what the executive meant to say was... "We aren't raping everyone we can for all the money we can".
Verizon can put "Terms of Service" and rules for any way they want. However, I the end user, can choose to ignore those terms of service at my own risk. Now, since Verizon is classified as a 'common carrier', they cannot legally monitor what I am doing, so their ability to 'catch me' is severely limited. All they can do is spout out empty threats really, cause proving it would be very hard to do, and at the profit margins they make, just not fiscally viable.
Why is this such an issue? Because it shows that Verizon is selling a product, with certain capabilities, that they don't want the user to use. (i.e. the user is paying for 500kb download over EVDO, and if the person chooses to use all 500kb, verizon can't support it). Guess what, it's not the USERS problem.
For those who don't get it, it's would be like Ford selling me a car that can only carry one passenger. Even though I don't currently carpool today, if my situation changed, and I had to, yet was unable to, I'd be pissed. Ford sold me a product, I can do what I want with the product, as long as I follow the law (not fords terms of service, the LAW, they ARE different you know), and in many cases, even if I don't follow the law.
So, verizon, if you want to limit it, then by all means put on a byte cap. Oh, wait, you don't want to do that, because your studies have shown that the sales you would loose to your competitors would be greater than the savings you would make. Cause if I were your competitor, I sure as hell would take out full page ads spreading FUD about your product, and it would work too...
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Grand Poobah |
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inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK | this will be so slow...
....it won't really matter. |
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LostInWoods
join:2004-04-14
| reply to G_Poobah
Re: Verizon just doesn't get it.
I doubt that Verizon's status as a common carrier applies to the EVDO data service. They should be able to monitor usage to ensure compliance with the TOS and cut off non-compliant users. Same as any other ISP.
I don't follow your Ford analogy. If you need a bigger car, you can sell the one you have and get a bigger car, but that has no correlation to a data service. If you like car analogies for the EVDO TOS, how about you could rent a car and let anyone drive it despite what the contract says, but when it's wrecked/lost/stolen, or just if they track the car and find out you've violated the contract, then the rental company will come after YOU. |
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DaSneaky1D
one wall to block them all
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou
 ·Charter Pipeline
| reply to Topmounter
Re: How is this different than...?
said by Topmounter  :How is this different than sticking an EVDO card in my laptop and sharing it via WiFi? I can just see the Verizon guys sitting in an exec conference room and giving themselves a big "DO!" and a slap to the forehead. It isn't. That's the point of this news story, Verizon execs don't like people doing that.
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] :: my trivial ramblings :: [ |
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evdo to voip
| reply to Topmounter
I think the bigger concern should be an $80 unlimited plain providing VOIP instad of people paying some of the highest cellular phone bills in the industry! Plus no taxes and fees |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | reply to inteller
Re: this will be so slow...
That's my thought.
Oh no, some guy is splitting 300kbps between two people! The very strain could rattle the core of the Internet itself! |
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stonecolddsl
Linux Junkie
join:2004-01-07
Sarasota, FL | Where I live the evdo (tampa bay area) runs 500 ~ to 1.5 I run download test of compressed file and was getting about 1.2 mbps when I did the math. But I am sure there are more conjested areas like NY where they are lucky to get 300kbps. |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02 | Yes, maximum burst can be up to 2.4Mbps...but on average speeds are closer to 500kbps. Yeah though, that's based on data from the San Diego and DC deployments. |
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Dexter9999
join:2002-12-11
Somerville, NJ
| reply to G_Poobah
Re: Verizon just doesn't get it.
I have an EV-DO card and I fully understand why I can't share the service.
A better analogy than the Ford example you gave is for someone to walk in to an All-You-Can buffet with a bag full of Tupperware. Since that person paid their bill, it now entitles them to fill all the containers and take the food home to feed their entire neighborhood.
When the owner of the restaurant sets the price, he sets it with the expectation that you won’t take every last bit of food in the place. Verizon had the same expectation and as a user of the service, you probably agree to this in the TOS (which I don’t have here in front of me.) |
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en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
 ·DSL EXTREME
| reply to Karl Bode
Re: this will be so slow...
I think the 'real' concern is that a hotspot style of usage could consume a decent amount of bandwidth. Since there is only a certain amount of spectrum, and it is shared, VZW will have issues. Also, as it is a big corp - they'll take all the money you can give them... and come back for more. If it is part of the TOS - (just like DSL and Cable sharing), then they'll b!tch about it.
»www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/mobi···info.jsp |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
Road Runner
PC gaming GAMES
PC gaming Tech
| Of course, but their alternative is to cap, throttle, and generally be legal PITAs, which isn't too wise from a competitive or PR standpoint, IMO.
It was the same complaint cable companies had when Wi-Fi emerged, and we posted stories about cable lawyers sending legal threats to people with open hotspots. AT&T Broadband would even have engineers fly over neighborhoods looking for open hotspots in the early days.
They eventually learned to deal with it. As will 3G providers. |
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JPCass
join:2001-01-23
Denver, CO
| reply to G_Poobah
Re: Verizon just doesn't get it.
said by G_Poobah :For those who don't get it, it's would be like Ford selling me a car that can only carry one passenger. I think that's the wrong analogy. It's more like the local transit authority selling you a bus pass, and then you using it to get to work, loaning it to co-workers to run errands while you're at work, going home and loaning it to a friend to get to get back and forth to his night shift job, and loaning it out on your days off as well. Or, you might say it's like putting a splitter on your cable connection, and running wires to your neighbors, and maybe even to a large screen TV in a public area. Or maybe like sending identical quintuplets in to eat, one at a time, at an "all you can eat" buffet.
Internet service providers have gotten away from early (mostly dial-up) charging based on usage, but their models are based on presumptions about average use by one household. If too many individuals push the envelope, their model to offer affordable service to the average consumer starts to break down. Metering usage adds costs, and they'd hope to avoid having to add those costs to mass-market broadband. I think they're in a quandry that has to be appreciated, and on the other hand they have gone ahead and advertised things like "unlimited" broadband.
Let's think of it in terms of the large majority of average users who have moderate needs for broadband at an affordable price. How do you serve the vast majority of users, without saddling them with the costs of a small number of users who use bandwidth approaching one or more magnitudes of order greater than average, or with costs of metering and monitoring to somehow handle those exceptional users? Is that more or less unfair in the net than trying to keep costs down by cracking down on the small number of people who try to push the envelope on the marketing offer of "unlimited"? |
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voiplover
Premium
join:2004-05-28
Portsmouth, NH | reply to DaSneaky1D
Re: How is this different than...?
So.. where is the best deal on junxion boxes anyway?  |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| reply to Topmounter
I dont see the issue.. you're talking about sharing less than a t1 worth of bandwidth and your upload is 155kbps max and usually less than that based on signal strenght...
I think someone misinformed the exec's about what's going on. Until Rev A comes around there wouldnt even be a good amount of bandwidth to share.
I believe Rev A is 3mb down and 1mb up. |
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pinetree6
join:2005-06-13
Oakland, CA | reply to JPCass
Re: Verizon just doesn't get it.
i agree.
don't advertise "unlimited" if you don't intend to provide it. |
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G_Poobah
join:2004-01-17
Schenectady, NY
| reply to G_Poobah
My analogy was correct. I purchased a car that CAN carry 8 people, but according to Fords 'terms of service', only I can use the car by myself. If I choose to ignore that rule, and carry 8 people means that Ford lost 7 'potential sales', thus if you make EVERYONE follow Fords 'terms of service', then all 7 of my passengers would need to purchase their own Ford cars. My bringing them with me (sharing) is causing lost revenue (lost sales) to Ford.
The tupperware argument has no basis. We are talking about a 'transient service', not a physical good. Every instant in time, it's either being used or not being used. If it's not being used, then it's lost forever, that's what 'transient' means. Completely different concept than physical goods. You can't apply the arguments of 'physical loss' to this, only 'potential loss'. Very well defined in case law.
The transient authority is a good analogy. If I buy a pass to the Metro in DC, I can use it all I want. In fact, I can give it out to my friends, and it's violation of terms of service. But wait, I can't use the pass when my friend has it, so, am I really in violation? I would argue no, since I can't physically use the pass while my friend has it. It's the same with internet access. If my 'friend' is using all 500Kb of download, then guess what, I can't download! It's simple enough to understand, but is it wrong? no.. I paid for 500kb of download service. Period.
What people are trying to argue is that it's legally wrong. It's 100% NOT legally wrong. I paid for the service, I can use the service the way I SEE FIT, terms of service be damned. PERIOD.
Is it morally wrong? Hmm.. maybe, but maybe not. Morals are very subjective.
Is it unprofitable for the business that sold me this service? Absolutely. Will the business use doublespeak and lies to try and prevent this, and improve their bottom line? I sure hope so, otherwise I wouldn't want to be a shareholder.
Be sure to separate moral/religious beliefs from legal beliefs. If they advertise 'unlimited access', then LEGALLY, I can use the unlimited as unlimited. If they don't like it, then they just need to remove the words 'unlimited' from their advertising, and clearly define what I can/cannot do with their service. So pray tell me why they haven't done that?
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Grand Poobah |
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