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Comments on news posted 2005-09-26 09:20:45: Both the WorldNet Daily and CNET explore US patent number 752898. The goal of the project is to use network latency measurements on a variety of networks, in large enough numbers, to pinpoint the geographical location of any Internet user. ..
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 | | No Suprise From NSA It doesn't suprise me that a super secret NSA project/program has been in use for years using this method. They have the cash reserves to toss at it. I wonder what's been happening for the last 5 years though since the patent was filed. With the NSA, it's anyone's guess. | |
| | | | Re: No Suprise From NSA If the NSA was doing this, why would they apply for a patent? It's not like they need to generate revenue and they'd rather not have anyone know what they're doing. | |
| | | JimFPremium
join:2003-06-15
Allentown, PA | Re: No Suprise From NSA said by footballdude:If the NSA was doing this, why would they apply for a patent? It's not like they need to generate revenue and they'd rather not have anyone know what they're doing. That is a good question. One useful possibility is that they could give an exclusive license to a company that would commercialize it rather than just having it sit on the shelf. A lot of venture outfits will not invest in a project unless they have some patent protection. Otherwise, just getting a patent to exclude the public for the use of an invention that we paid for is a strange way for the government to spend our tax money. Not that they haven't done worse. | |
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|  Wills
join:2001-01-03
Port Charlotte, FL | Me thinks the anonymous user needs to take off his tinfoil hat... | |
| | | |
| | So then... If they track someone, and that someone is on a satellite link, will they track them to 22,000 miles out in space?
"Mr. President, those sneaky terrorists are in outer space!!!" | |
| | | | Re: So then... their making a "moon bomb"
i dont see how at all that could work, if some one is using their connection and the latency grows, they could be displaced extremely easily, the idea makes no sense and is a complete waste of our tax dollars. | |
| | |  KickrootJava HeathenPremium
join:2002-11-24
Glassboro, NJ | Re: So then... How do you know it's a complete waste? Did you read the patent? Where is your paper disputing the claims made in it?
The NSA employs some brilliant mathematicians and engineers. It think it's a bit presumptuous to assume that this doesn't work because you don't understand it. | |
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| | What about smaller / International areas? How about if this were applied to somewhere that doesn't have "millions" of active connections?
A smaller pond, so to speak?
Pakistan?
Indonesia (maybe narrowed to a specific island)?
Iraq?
Iran?
North Korea?
Nigeria?
Might sometimes be a big help to "law" enforcement.
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Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all other forms of government. - Winston Churchill | |
|  TamaraBQuestion The Current ParadigmPremium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC
 ·Clearwire Wireless
| Storm in a bottle?What I don't understand is why go to all the trouble of making a real-time latency map, measure latency-times, compute a vector, and then come within a mile or so of a possible target location, when all you have to do is look up the IP address and get a name and address in most cases?
Something like TOR proxy defeats it all anyway, just as it defeats the IP method. But really NSA, don't you have better things than a three-legged horse to spend your research money on?
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. | |
| |  nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: Storm in a bottle? said by TamaraB:all you have to do is look up the IP address and get a name and address in most cases? ???
Ok, I just pulled the following 5 IPs randomly from my system logs. What name and address do you get when you look up:
66.92.150.14
12.108.188.134
209.101.111.130
87.48.83.53
4.67.10.141
If you can find the correct name and street address associated with those IPs, mind sharing how you found them?
-tom
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"Some people have morals, standards and ideals about quality, but I'm an American: I couldn't care less." --Tony Pierce (paraphrased) | |
| | | | | Re: Storm in a bottle? 66.92.150.14
Xanthia Enterprises
5931 Monticello Rd.
Alexandria, Virginia 22303
United States
Administrative Contact:
Jones, Thomas H ns-admin@xanthia.com
5931 Monticello Rd
Alexandria, Virginia 22303
United States
(703) 560-2687 Fax -- (301) 230-5852
Technical Contact:
Jones, Thomas H ns-admin@xanthia.com
5931 Monticello Rd
Alexandria, Virginia 22303
United States
(703) 560-2687 Fax -- (301) 230-5852
12.108.188.134
Informatica Corporation ewong@INFORMATICA.COM
100 Cardinal Way
Redwood City, CA 94063
US
650-385-5000 fax: 650-385-5500 | |
| | | |  Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: Storm in a bottle? said by RevDNSwhois :
....
Which tells you nothing about where the end users are located. Not to mention that sometimes that info is bogus.
According to your method, I live in NJ.
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
| | | | | TamaraBQuestion The Current ParadigmPremium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
| Re: Storm in a bottle? said by Combat Chuck:said by RevDNSwhois :
....
Which tells you nothing about where the end users are located. Not to mention that sometimes that info is bogus. According to your method, I live in NJ. The "new" latency method tells you even less! It triangulates to a major city at best.
The NSA has access to the billing records of the ISPs who assigned those IP addresses. So, it's no big deal for them to get an address and a name. You and I can't just make a phone call, and demand the name and address of the user of that IP at any given time, the NSA CAN. The, resolution, is accurate to the local central office; in a metropolitan city, that's far greater resolution than you will get by the "latency method".
Can you see ANY benefit to using the newly patented Latency method over billing/ISP/DHCP information? If so, please tell me, as I am totally bewildered as to why the NSA is spending money developing an inferior geolocation method from what currently exists.
An IP address always correlates to a billing address (someone on this earth pays for that connection), the NSA has access to this information.
Bob
--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. | |
| | | | | |  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA
 ·Comcast Formerl..
1 edit | Re: Storm in a bottle? said by TamaraB:... Can you see ANY benefit to using the newly patented Latency method over billing/ISP/DHCP information? If so, please tell me, as I am totally bewildered as to why the NSA is spending money developing an inferior geolocation method from what currently exists. ... Bob The only use that comes to mind for me is in making the "rough cut" on determining the location of a VOIP user dialing 9-1-1 from a new location not shared with his VOIP provider--but this would assume that the user could provide "finer" detail on location (street address, hotel name, etc.) but if the user can provide that, they can provide the name of the metro area, too.
Besides, if this needs "many samples", you aren't going to get those in time to help someone through 9-1-1.
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
| | | | | | | TamaraBQuestion The Current ParadigmPremium
join:2000-11-08
Brooklyn NYC Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
| Re: Storm in a bottle?said by calvoiper:The only use that comes to mind for me is in making the "rough cut" on determining the location of a VOIP user dialing 9-1-1 from a new location not shared with his VOIP provider-- Every VOIP packet contains a source and destination IP addresses, which identifies a provider / Country / City / and user account. The "location" will ALWAYS be the last router in the ISP's network connecting to the user.
I still don't get the point of this 
Bob
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Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here. | |
|
| | | ...why go to all the trouble..., when all you have to do is look up the IP address and get a name and address in most cases? Only shows you a "possible" ISP - can't rely on IP addresses, unless the ISP is forced to give up user info; our great Republic now lets the FBI et al, write up and sign off on their own warrants for that easy info trace, courtesy of "The Patriot Act." Even so, the IP is easily spoofed, for those who like their privacy...shoot, forgot about TPA and had just mentioned it!  lol
...But really NSA, don't you have better things than a three-legged horse to spend your research money on? You gotta be kiddin!   | |
|
 BK3
join:2001-04-10
Geneva, IL
 ·AT&T Yahoo
| Could it be reliable? It would seem to me that this would not be very reliable, but I could be wrong. Doesn't this presuppose that:
1) Routers never go down or get flakey.
2) ISPs never have any problem(s)
3) There is never any unexpected congestion on the network.
4) All connections would always travel the same route from point A to point B
--
(2Co 3:17) Now the Lord is the Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. | |
| |  DescentWrap It UpPremium
join:2000-11-10
Hoboken, NJ | Re: Could it be reliable? said by BK3:It would seem to me that this would not be very reliable, but I could be wrong. Doesn't this presuppose that: 1) Routers never go down or get flakey. 2) ISPs never have any problem(s) 3) There is never any unexpected congestion on the network. 4) All connections would always travel the same route from point A to point B 5) and users would never max out their connections
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66.208.104.33:27015 - OutKast Clan CS Source http://insidewow.com »cstrike-planet.com | |
| | Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | said by BK3:It would seem to me that this would not be very reliable, but I could be wrong. The key is to take many samples from many locations. When you analyze the data you'll see a bunch of random noise caused by flaky routers and such, and a few measurements that converge on one place (this being the good data).
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
| | |  VigThread-safe since 1997Premium
join:2004-03-23
San Diego, CA | Re: Could it be reliable? Very well said CC. This method only becomes useful when lots of data has been collected. It's a giant statistical analysis effort. Patterns can always be gleaned with enough data points and processing power.
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Visit the land of the never-setting sun | |
| | | | BVT
join:2004-10-25
Mount Juliet, TN | Re: Could it be reliable? Still doesnt seem possible. How will this handle flaky router replacement, new fiber/lines being laid, different routing ways around the net, etc etc. This is a statistical nightmare.
I think it will only be useful in areas that do not have a very good fiber web laid. That would include all of Africa, Middle East and most of lower Asia. I guess that is all we would be interested in. Militants, commies, terrorists and all. | |
| | | | | Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: Could it be reliable? Because flaky routers are going to produce pings that are fairly random when they flake out, but when they get work correctly you are going to get the same ping. You gather massive amounts of data, from many different locations and you'll start to see trends.
9,999,900 pings all random and 100 that come up fairly close together lets you know that the 100 close ones are probably good data. This is simple statistics.
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
| | | | | |  TsumePremium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
·Comcast
| Re: Could it be reliable? I'm not sure I quite understand the concept here.
Wouldn't a simple firewall defeat this? If they can't connect to a user anyway, if the pings are timed out, how would they trace it then? Or is it based off of the last hop? If it is then from what I know this wouldn't be too accurate.
Can someone enlighten me to this? I just don't feel that I understand it quite well. I'm sure the NSA didn't throw billions of dollars at a worthless concept though, so I know this has to work somehow.
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"True warriors do not follow paths, they make them. It is not just their desire, it is their nature." (Battletech) | |
| | | | | | | Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: Could it be reliable? said by Tsume:Can someone enlighten me to this? I just don't feel that I understand it quite well. I'm sure the NSA didn't throw billions of dollars at a worthless concept though, so I know this has to work somehow. I don't know; People just seem to be convinced that it can't work because of variability in the net, all I'm saying is that the variability isn't an issue if you take enough samples.
As for the firewall, I imagine that part of the plan is to become trusted somehow (ie:a rogue app).
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Pi Piru Piru Piru PiPiru Pi! | |
| | | | | | | | TsumePremium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN Reviews:
·Comcast
| Re: Could it be reliable? Ahh, that makes much more sense.
So pretty much the same concept of social engineering behind most trojan horses
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"True warriors do not follow paths, they make them. It is not just their desire, it is their nature." (Battletech) | |
|
 mrchrisOut and aroundPremium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | Wait.. Isn't this similar to traceroute? | |
| | | goverment trackers This seems to me to be just another attempt at government attempting to control every aspects of our lives. I know if that if your not a criminal you should not need to hide, but why would they need to know almost exactly where i am at anywhere in the world. Control freaks and govermnents are afraid of the potential of the internet, but unfortunately criminals use it as well, giving them a cloaked reason to try to develop schemes to track everybody. Next up will be National ID cards, cashless currency that can be tracked anywhere, a mandatory DNA database, face scans, retina scans, even implantable microchips and the merging of local police with the military, and the eventual dissolvement of the National Gaurd meaning no civilian militia which is in the Constitution. Be prepared to be herded into compact cities with 256 kbs broadband connections!
May i use too much drugs? | |
| rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Easily Defeated? Couldn't this be easily defeated by Linux users who modify the TCP/IP stack to introduce a random delay? It's probably possible with Windows but it might be harder since the source isn't there.
I could also see Routers based on Linux source having a "introduce random latency delay" from after market hackers.
This seems bone headed and silly. If you have to have this information, require GPS in the requesting computer and make it send that information to use the Internet. Of course a law like this probably wouldn't be able to make it out of committee... | |
| | nosx
join:2004-12-27
00000
kudos:4 | Re: Easily Defeated? Wouldnt it just be simpler to drop all ICMP traffic? I mean cmon how can they expect to measure latency if i dont pong. This is another stupid idea from another stupid government and will never work. GFG uncle sam, waste more of my $ why dont you. | |
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| | Utterly ridiculous Unless there is some extra methodology used, this entire project is preposterous. Simply measuring packet latency from point A to point B won't tell you squat about the physical location of an end node.
"Hmm..38ms, he must be in Texas..."
(Jonny Hacker fires up bittorent)
"Oh, wait, his latency jumped to 300ms, HE'S IN PAKISTAN!! Warm up the bombers!!"
What kind of clueless quack managed to sell this snake-oil scheme?
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Burrow owl...burrow owl... | |
| |  tcp1Premium
join:2000-04-17
Herndon, VA
 ·Verizon FiOS
1 edit | Re: Utterly ridiculous I highly doubt it's this simplistic.
Look at it similar to GPS triangulation. GPS triangulation is done via latency measurement.
If you have 3 routers that you know the location of, you may be able to assume, (of course taking certain constant assumptions) that if a person is getting X latency from router 1, Y from router 2, and Z from router 3.. that he may be closer (logically, of course - on a network topography) to the router with the shortest latency.
I don't believe this is an application where they can pinpoint your address. I believe it is being used to find out IF a connection is being rerouted, and roughly how much "wire" is really between you and the user.
Keep in mind that the government already knows where most major ISP routers are. It's the last few miles they're concerned about, and my guess is that this is where it comes into play. | |
| | | | HA HA HA HA!!!!! That is a great hypothetical example!!! Good thinking. I laughed my ass off in the middle of class on this one! | |
|
 FiLPremium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD | wow...wasting everyones money huh?? tell me this, if the NSA has that type of capability of findin n pin pointing where people, then why havent we been able to locate the brains of these terrorist operations which clearly use the internet?
they spread all types of attack messages thru the net constantly, and use cellular phones to do the same..if the NSA is so good at doing what it does, which is spying on people, then theyd should in theory have no problem in searchin, listening, and pinpointing these terrorists exact locations..i say its a government fiasco when your top secret branch cant do a damn thing with all those brainiacs...seems they work harder on planting taps n hi tech video surveillance on potential pres. candidates, delegates, and other top officials who have good, but misunderstood agendas...its sad... | |
| | nosx
join:2004-12-27
00000
kudos:4 | Re: wow...wasting everyones money huh?? now now, thats not fair, we all know that osama works for the CIA just like he has for the last 35 years. Its all a big ploy to give the government even more power to terrorize its citizens.
:-P | |
| | | | | Re: wow...wasting everyones money huh?? I don't think it's the CIA, just one of the Bush family employees that went a bit astray. Even GW said very early on that he really doesn't think about him. As far as more power, the National Guard is supposed to be HERE to respond when national disasters, riots and such occur, and FEMA was doing just fine until gobbled up and cut off at the knees, by fatherland security, preventing them from doing what Pres Carter explicitly set the agency up to do. Who needs the NG and FEMA, anyway, GW just loves the idea that the military could be used instead of either! The NG is much better utilized to keep military bc's down; also gives the military more R&R, so they're ready for the next great conflict and "victory," begun under some other pretense that becomes all too quickly forgotten and excused with the proper PR and propaganda. This whole fatherland crap is just that; what's wrong with saying Our Country, or The US, or anything along those lines, as we always did!? I saw just a day or two ago, a new Cost Guard add - the ensign, or seaman, said how he was proud to be defending the Homeland...HEY, the USCG defends our shore lines and provides sea rescues and much more (and the men/women do a great job that should make them proud)! But they are protecting OUR Country, the USA, our coastal waterways, Us, not the Homeland (which is way too close to the Fatherland, which had mighty similar beginnings).  {breathing again}
Egads! I only meant to make a simple reply in a somewhat humorly manner!! Sorry 'bout that, folks. | |
|
 TrelGood EveningPremium
join:2002-10-08
Hillsborough, NJ | waaaait a second isn't this a screensaver in linux (kde or gnome)?????
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/chown -R us:us /yourbase | |
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1 edit | Re: waaaait a second network-latency-discovery.l.google.com | |
| | | TrelGood EveningPremium
join:2002-10-08
Hillsborough, NJ | Re: waaaait a second This program draws a simulation of a sonar screen. By default, it displays a random assortment of ``bogies'' on the screen, but if compiled properly, it can ping (pun intended) your local network, and actually plot the proximity of the other hosts on your network to you. It would be easy to make it monitor other sources of data, too. (Processes? Active network connections? CPU usage per user?) Written by Stephen Martin and Jamie Zawinski.
»www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/screenshots.html
That one
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/chown -R us:us /yourbase | |
| | | |  VTBrendanViatalkPremium,VIP
join:2005-06-27
Clifton Park, NY
kudos:1
1 edit | Re: waaaait a second It would seem as though you would have to have an idea how many data points they were working with, how finely tuned they are, and how they system worked.
Lets assume that your average monkey with a computer and access to traceroute.org could figure out what city someone lived in.
Then assume (for the point im trying to make, that this is feasible) that these other people have 1000 datapoints in this city. You could call that crazy but say if someone really well integrated into society such as AOL, Kazaa, Comcast etc is involved its very feasible that its many times that.
Then take your average ping response of 1ms, 2ms etc. and make it 1.0334433, 2.0023444 etc. so they actually look like something that could be considered a valuable piece of data.
Then assume every datapoint is constantly hitting other network points that could be either known distances away or not known distances away to know what your average network looks like on 1000 different average days.
If the measuring is accurate enough (im pretty sure its not running microsoft's ping tool), and enough datapoints are involved from known locations (outsourced in major cities to cable providers via integration into cable modems etc.), I'd have to assume that they'd be able to get a pretty good handle on where computer X resides at.
My little theory obviously has some holes but its not exactly cold fusion were talking about here.
-Brendan | |
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| | | | It's part of Google's 'desktop', that thingy what tells you the weather in your zip code.
So, if enough people on enough networks are running GDesk and getting the weather, who knows what those bright folks in marketing can do with all that data. | |
|
 AnonProxyProxy of AnonPremium
join:2001-05-12
ß | The original program was called Trakker Then Trakker II. I wrote both of them...one does cell phones via tower triangulation (which was a BIG deal back in the mid 80's) and one does networks. The network version also uses "triangulation via latency" and is the core product.
The reason for the patent, so no other group or agency can develop the technology. It's a patent of denial.
Oddly enough the US Gov't stole that technology from me during an investigation into a kidnapping and later during assistance with a hacker case. | |
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