rileyjam514
There You Go Again...
join:2005-06-26
Kearny, NJ
| I can see it now...
Tech support calls:
"Will I be able to talk to my toaster?"
"I think my hair dryer is stalking me.."
"I've gotten a few dead-air calls from the neighbor's iron.."
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"It is my destiny to give back to the universe infinitely more than I have taken from it." -- Anonymous |
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Hipjones
join:2004-05-14
Smithfield, VA | Nice
Funny how when they get this to work there is less bashing on the BPL's and more on the HAM's. This is great.You wanted more upload for 2006,you got it.Please dont comment on how no one will ever get it or how it's gonna fade,been there,heard that. |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
 ·Comcast
| said by Hipjones  :Funny how when they get this to work there is less bashing on the BPL's and more on the HAM's. This is great.You wanted more upload for 2006,you got it.Please dont comment on how no one will ever get it or how it's gonna fade,been there,heard that. Once BPL can be shown to work, the same apps that work over any BB platform will work over BPL. That they are hyping Voip is sort of irrelevant. It works over any BB pipe.
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Endgame
Your member at work
Premium
join:2005-07-07
USA
 ·Pacific Bell - SBC
| BHAM might be a good way to get broadband over long distances pretty soon and there's plenty of this ham spectrum available to fill up and clog! You hammers will be behammed.  Yeah when pigs fly I know! 
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Introducing the new AT&T. Your world. Destroyed because we have the Deathstar in our logo! Hah Hah Haaaa |
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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| reply to TKJunkMail
found that strange too, hyping it as being a pipe for power and phone.... voip will also (barely) work over a dialup connection.
like the 1st post, I could see weird random problems with this... really though, it ought to work as stable as cable, without any packets accidentally ending up at the neigbors house. time will tell.
glad there's less interference, that's a good thing even if you aren't a ham enthusiast. |
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Middieman
Eschew Obfuscation
join:2001-02-05
Elkins Park, PA
| reply to rileyjam514
Re: I can see it now...
"Cautiously optimistic" is far from hams giving BPL in Texas a green light.
After looking at how powerful BPL signals can be from demonstrations by affected hams, I now think its probable that BPL will be disturbing to people who use VHF in 30-50mhz. Since it will be in people's homes radiating from power outlets and wiring inside walls, I'd bet the interference would be difficult to get away from. By the way, given the right conditions these frequencies can propagate quite a distance, similar to HF.
Better than using HF freqs? Yes. Problematic for what is down there? Probably.
-=[Middie]=-
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All your base are belong to DSL Reports! |
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bbskeptic
join:2005-09-12
Burlington, VT | reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Nice
not all bb pipes are equal. A fat pipe with erratic latency issue will be useless for VoIP or any other real time application. |
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RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| reply to Endgame
said by Endgame :BHAM might be a good way to get broadband over long distances pretty soon and there's plenty of this ham spectrum available to fill up and clog! You hammers will be behammed. Yeah when pigs fly I know! Not sure if you are making a joke or are serious or just putting out some words, but the Hams only have the use of a very minor portion of the 1.8-30 MHz spectrum, and if memory serves me correctly, some of those frequencies are as a secondary user (meaning that if the prime user is using them, Hams can not).
Now the US military is a different subject. Last I saw, we still used HF and low VHF radios a lot. Could be interesting.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. |
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oliphant
I Have 8 Boobies
Premium
join:2004-11-26
Corona, CA | reply to Hipjones
No one will ever get it and it will fade. |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| reply to Hipjones
said by Hipjones :Funny how when they get this to work there is less bashing on the BPL's and more on the HAM's. This is great.You wanted more upload for 2006,you got it.Please dont comment on how no one will ever get it or how it's gonna fade,been there,heard that. The only ham bashing I've seen has been here on BBR, and it was going on way before the TXU deal and before Current's improved technology was available. It's funny how hams say we don't disapprove of BPL, we have a problem with the interference. And then when we say something good about a particular system because it avoids some of the interference issues, we're still the bad guys.
"BPL is going to be everywhere", been there, heard that. Yet there's only one rural BPL trial and I haven't seen anyone show how that wonderful rural BPL model will work. Merely saying BPL will bring broadband to the huddled masses won't make it happen; interference is just one of the issues to overcome. And despite Current's success with interference issues and Motorola's new technology, there's still several BPL vendors trying to push their interference-ridden technology in existing operational systems. |
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Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
Sweden |  BPL - Thumbs Down
BPL is crap. The future lies in fiber.
-Tzale |
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W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| reply to rf_engineer
Re: Nice
quote:
The only ham bashing I've seen has been here on BBR, and it was going on way before the TXU deal and before Current's improved technology was available.
Actually, from the posts I have seen here, most have been reasonably supportive of Amateur Radio, listeners of international shortwave broadcasts and CB, the services most likely to be affected by BPL. All in all, hams have a pretty good reputation.
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/emcomm.html
Now, in some other forums, "hamster" bashing seems to be the best way to avoid the tough issues, or at least a way to try to protect one's investment until the price of their stock goes up enough to sell.
Now, look through a few of the links above and try to imagine that community deliberately lying about BPL to make a few "fat cats" at ARRL rich with more members.
In reality, ARRL's policy arm -- its Board of Directors, President and Vice Presidents, are all unpaid volunteers. The League has a paid staff, whose role and function is defined by its volunteer Board of Directors.
Ed Hare, ARRL Lab
W1RFI@arrl.org |
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moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to rf_engineer
said by rf_engineer :said by Hipjones :Funny how when they get this to work there is less bashing on the BPL's and more on the HAM's. This is great.You wanted more upload for 2006,you got it.Please dont comment on how no one will ever get it or how it's gonna fade,been there,heard that. The only ham bashing I've seen has been here on BBR, and it was going on way before the TXU deal and before Current's improved technology was available. It's funny how hams say we don't disapprove of BPL, we have a problem with the interference. And then when we say something good about a particular system because it avoids some of the interference issues, we're still the bad guys. "BPL is going to be everywhere", been there, heard that. Yet there's only one rural BPL trial and I haven't seen anyone show how that wonderful rural BPL model will work. Merely saying BPL will bring broadband to the huddled masses won't make it happen; interference is just one of the issues to overcome. And despite Current's success with interference issues and Motorola's new technology, there's still several BPL vendors trying to push their interference-ridden technology in existing operational systems. AGREED!
When the truth is against you, resort to insults and bashing. God forbid anyone take a look at the technology behind BPL.
Some people, on this board, have a "broadband at all costs" attitude and shame on you for getting in their way. They don't care if the HAMS are interfered with but one problem with their TV and some want to resort to vandalism and murder. |
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W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| quote:
Some people, on this board, have a "broadband at all costs" attitude and shame on you for getting in their way. They don't care if the HAMS are interfered with but one problem with their TV and some want to resort to vandalism and murder.
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/tvi.html
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/catvi/index.html
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/rfigen.html
Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org |
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moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| Nice links Ed.
Unfortunately, for some people here, it will fall on deaf ears. They would rather blame someone else and not their own TV.
I had one comlant against me that was completely unfounded. (My station was not even plugged in.) My guess is that it was a mobile CB setup with an illegal amp that caused me problems once before. |
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W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| quote:
Unfortunately, for some people here, it will fall on deaf ears. They would rather blame someone else and not their own TV.
Information for the Neighbors of Hams
»www.arrl.org/news/rfi/neighbors.html
Licensed Amateurs will almost invariably correct any problems with their stations.
Even if the interference is caused by inadequate filtering in consumer equipment, hams will usually help their neighbors find a solution.
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/rfi-info-fcc.html
Although I have run across a few jerks, it has been my experience that most of the time, the neighbor is willing to be reasonable, especially after they see the FCC information.
Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org |
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W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| reply to W1RFI
quote:
Some people, on this board, have a "broadband at all costs" attitude and shame on you for getting in their way. They don't care if the HAMS are interfered with but one problem with their TV and some want to resort to vandalism and murder.
Interference can go both ways. What about interference from licensed services to BPL? Initial testing indicates that there is a serious susceptibility problem with some BPL:
»www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/degrade.html
I will add a few more data points. In contrast to the AMRAD tests, when I was in Cincinatti, I did some similar testing outside the house of a ham in that system. While the Current Technologies equipment in the AMRAD tests in Potomac showed that as little as 5 watts from the mobile station brought the BPL Internet connection down, in Cincinatti, I used 75 watts with the same BPL manufacturer's equipment and didn't see a problem. At this point, Current is discussing these findings with ARRL, and I hope those discussions will lead to some joint work and testing.
Susceptibility tests done recently in Cottonwood, AZ showed 65 watts from a mobile station caused the BPL system to significantly degrade.
I did some testing at an Ohio BPL system and found that if they didn't "notch" the ham bands, two watts in band from a mobile station parked on the street caused two of the nodes to completely lose track of each other. When the notches were put in place, 100 watts caused the system to degrade.
OTOH, the Motorola system here at ARRL HQ kept going without a hitch when the W1AW bulletin station fired up with 1000 watts on seven different bands simultaneously, with antennas clustered all around the building.
Clearly, more work in this area is needed, and some companies appear to be serious about assessing this threat to their performance.
Under the FCC rules for unlicensed devices, BPL must accept any interference caused to it, so this is pretty serious work.
In a recent article in EDN, I was quoted as saying that my job it so help make BPL successful.
»www.edn.com/article/CA6280032.ht···yid=2282
My role in their success will be to help them address their EMC issues. ARRL has done that over the years with the cable industry, the DSL industry, and even HomePlug.
It is ironic that the most successful BPL company so far -- Current Technologies -- is building on the work that ARRL did with HomePlug some years ago.
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/HomePlug···ARRL.pdf
Other examples:
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/HPNA/HPNAtests.html
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/VDSL/VDS···nix.html
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/VDSL/VDSL-TIA.htm
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/rfi/VDSL/2E142351.PPT
The latter is a presentation made formally by me at one of the VDSL standards meetings.
Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org |
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moonpuppy
join:2000-08-21
Glen Burnie, MD
·Verizon Online DSL
| said by W1RFI :Interference can go both ways. What about interference from licensed services to BPL? Initial testing indicates that there is a serious susceptibility problem with some BPL: » www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/degrade.htmlI did some testing at an Ohio BPL system and found that if they didn't "notch" the ham bands, two watts in band from a mobile station parked on the street caused two of the nodes to completely lose track of each other. When the notches were put in place, 100 watts caused the system to degrade. Ed Hare, W1RFI@arrl.org Ed, I read the link describing the test with the ICOM 706 using as little as 5 watts.
I know this might be a bit outside of the scope of your experiments but has anyone considered doing the same experiment with a CB using Part 95 rules (limit of 4 watts PEP AM, 12 watts SSB PEP?) |
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Middieman
Eschew Obfuscation
join:2001-02-05
Elkins Park, PA
| reply to Tzale
Re: BPL - Thumbs Down
quote:
From a recently posted link at the ARRL website:
Under the FCC's rules, BPL is an unlicensed device that must accept any interference caused to it by authorized radio services.
Now I was not aware that as little as 5 watts will be enough to kick people off their BPL. (My mobile rig won't even transmit lower than 5 watts, and generally I use no less than 50.) Makes sense. The entire problem with BPL is that power lines are NOT SHIELDED.
And it's an excellent point that hams may use up to 1500 watts of power. As a rule hams currently use as little power as possible to allow for two way communication. But BPL being an unlicensed service must accept interference from hams and anyone else.
Now its not too hard to see a probable situation where no one is happy. (30-50mhz possibly might be feqs chosen so BPL gets less interference from hams, etc. I hadn't considered before that the frequency choice might not be to make hams happy.)
Suppose BPL goes up. Unhappy hams crank up the amplifier and pump out what they need to communicate over the noise. Two things happen.
* BPL users are legally (if unintentionally) knocked off whatever they're doing.
* hams may be legally communicating if loosing distant signals.
Again, no one is happy. As a broadband user myself, the disconnects from BPL service would be a deal breaker for me. I'd move to something else.
That interference goes both ways is an excellent point.
-=[Middie]=-
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All your base are belong to DSL Reports! |
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contrarian21
@optonline.net
| nice, wide area and in-house BPL
at Las Vegas CES- COMPUTER ELECTRONIC SHOW !!!
RE: DS2 Joins Samsung at CES to Demonstrate PLC-Enabled Digital Living Network
Powerline Communications (PLC) Demo Showcases Ease of Sharing Digital Content Using Existing Home Wiring
CONSUMER ELECTRONICS SHOW, LAS VEGAS, JAN. 5, 2006 – Designed in partnership with Design of Systems on Silicon (DS2), Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. today, at the Consumer Electronics Show, unveiled a Digital Living Network utilizing power line communications (PLC) technology. The demo showcases the ease of sharing and growing digital media content and services using wiring already in the home. Samsung will be providing the demonstration at the Consumer Electronics Show Central Hall, booth number 11033.
The demo features consumer electronic devices sharing digital content through a PLC AV (Audio-Visual) Home Network, several appliances with embedded DS2’s latest generation technology enable networking speeds up to 200 Mbps as soon as they are plugged into the wall power outlets. The theme of the demo is “Just Plug Power & Enjoy Digital Living Network”, and this demonstration will clearly show how consumers can easily watch video streams, or record live programs to a personal computer using power lines already installed in any home.
Samsung’s Home Network digital media devices with DS2’s chipsets, with high throughput and guaranteed QoS, will satisfy the needs of those seeking easier AV home networking. Moreover, the demo exhibits how DS2 technology is satisfying the stringent consumer demands for high-speed access with its 200 Mbps throughput and quality of service.
“DS2 is excited to work with Samsung to deliver on the promise of the digital living home network,” said Jorge Blasco, president and CEO, DS2. "As more and more homes seek to network their devices, it will become critical to implement the technology that provides the fastest and highest quality solution. DS2 is on the forefront of PLC and our solutions will make in-home networking easier than ever."
“The Digital Living Network demonstration shows the maturity of DS2´s 200 Mbps product. It adheres to standards such as Universal Plug and Play demanded by the consumer electronics market”, said J. Subramanian, Frost & Sullivan Research Analyst.
For the products being demonstrated at CES, DS2 and Samsung worked together to embed DS2’s chipset technology into AV home devices including high-definition televisions, DVD players/recorders with built-in hard disk drives, cameras, and digital media server PCs. These devices were connected via PLC to a WiFi network allowing connection to a wireless notebook and printer to demonstrate the ease of interoperability and networking with just the electrical outlets in the home.
About Design of Systems on Silicon (DS2)
DS2 is the world's leading supplier of the 200 Mbps technology that enables home networking and broadband access over power line, coaxial cable, and telephone wire. DS2 pioneered the industry with the introduction of its 200 Mbps chipsets, creating the fastest and highest performance solution for simultaneous data, digital audio and high-definition video transmission. Two pre-eminent industry groups, the Universal Powerline Association (UPA) and the European Union consortium OPERA (Open PLC European Research Alliance) have adopted DS2 technology in support of multi-vendor standard certified product. For more information, please visit »www.ds2.es. |
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