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Comments on news posted 2006-06-05 14:31:35: We recently noted that the DOJ and Attorney General Roberto Gonzales met with the chiefs of several major ISPs (including AOL, Comcast and Verizon) to try and convince them they should retain customer browsing activity for at least two years. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · next


latez

join:2002-01-07
Brooklyn, NY

DOJ Bullying?

Well atleast the ISP's didnt shove their tale between their legs and submit once again. Perhaps the thought of AG Gonzales shoving it to them without the lube in the future frightened them off.
--
“The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity — the rest is overhead for the operating system.” —Nicholas Ambrose


Annoyedathis

@charter.com

This is annoying....

I hate to bring reality to the table, but here it is... using child porn as a big reason to track everyone's activities online is just plain BS. How many people out there in the world actually LOOK for this crap? I think the media is overhyping it.

And exactly how is tracking it going to stop the activity. So... you find out that someone has looked at child porn almost 2 years ago. OK... now what? Did that person move in that time frame? Was it the person on the internet account, or someone else in their house? Can you prove that? Is the person using a wireless router like most people do? If so, and they are using no security at all, or WEP, can you be absolutely sure that their router wasn't compromised? True, the internet account holder is responsible for what happens over their account, but... if this pathetic attempt at big brother is serious about actually STOPPING child porn, since it's such a big part of our new world society, tell me how this can PREVENT the action on the part of the person doing it?

Obviously making examples in the media of these disgusting sickos isn't having any effect. Apparently child porn is just going rampant!

Please.

GhostDoggy

join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA

1 recommendation

reply to latez

Re: DOJ Bullying?

Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly.

Besides, trying to store millions of subscribers data for a year, let alone two, would be astronomical in costs. Heck, most can't support a robust NNTP server let alone capture and retain for periods of 6-8 times longer than the most premiere new service already afoot.

I think the DOJ needs to take a basic computing class, because they obviously are asking ISPs to turn straw into gold.


Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY

Easy Solution

That kind of thinking will cause lots of problems in future.
Maybe cars manufacturers should install black boxes in cars to monitor their driving and sent that info to PD so they print you tickets for all little violations.
People should have implanted RFID so we can tell where everybody was a time, would help solve murder cases.
--
Semper Fi


N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2
said by Tomek:

That kind of thinking will cause lots of problems in future.
Maybe cars manufacturers should install black boxes in cars to monitor their driving and sent that info to PD so they print you tickets for all little violations.
People should have implanted RFID so we can tell where everybody was a time, would help solve murder cases.
Most GM cars manufactured in the past 7 years have a "black box" on them. It records such things as braking action, speed at time of impact, throttle position, engine speed, and air bag deployment. The box is activated by an accelerometer. In the event of a serious crash, the police can download the information and use it in the investigation.

»www.tarorigin.com/art/Dgilman/

Welcome to the digital world, big brother's riding with you....


insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

IP Logs should be saved.

It's stupid if some law enforcement officer tracks down the IP address of a criminal and gets a warrant for identifying information and then upon contacting the ISP being told that the logs are lost every month so there is no way to identify the criminal. These logs should be retained for a couple of years for investigation purposes.
Now tracking the sites people visit and handing that data over to the government is unacceptable. That's just as bad as the phone spying. The government should not know what everyone does all day on the internet and they shouldn't know who we call and our exact gps coordinates either.


AB
Premium
join:2006-04-04
Leesburg, VA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to GhostDoggy

Re: DOJ Bullying?

said by GhostDoggy:

Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly.
You got that right! Show 'em kiddie porn pictures to get the law passed, then those investigations go out the window because they're too busy snooping into the business of ordinary people. This is what is commonly referred to as a "dog & pony show". Why? Because 100-150 years ago, at the carnival, pickpockets would circulate through the crowds while people's attention was diverted watching that cute doggie riding the pony. The ONLY purpose of the show was to facilitate the crime!
--
Why, yes! Certifiably so. Why do you ask?


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA
reply to GhostDoggy
The only reason for bringing child pornography into the mix is to give an attack point if someone opposes this. If someone says no then they will be painted as "pro-child pornography." (Alternatively, someone might say yes just to keep from being seen as "pro-child pornography.")

In reality, this is probably like the NSA phone records scandal. An effort to create a huge repository of information to help catch "bad guys" which will just generate a lot of false leads, invade privacy even more, and wind up being abused and/or expanded in scope to catch other "bad guys" in an effort to prove that the program was a success.
--
-Jason Levine
My Gallery | Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com | URateit.com

Necronomikro

join:2005-09-01

1 recommendation

reply to insomniac84

Re: IP Logs should be saved.

said by insomniac84:

It's stupid if some law enforcement officer tracks down the IP address of a criminal and gets a warrant for identifying information and then upon contacting the ISP being told that the logs are lost every month so there is no way to identify the criminal. These logs should be retained for a couple of years for investigation purposes.
How about, oh, I don't know, actually doing investigations in a reasonable amount of time and, I don't know, actually letting someone go due to lack of evidence? A few months is fine, considering the exhorbitant amount of info there. A million customers, a new ip per connection, logging for a month alone is probably several gigs worth of logs. Now, imagine if they had to do it for 2 years? 24xseveral gigs = a HUGE AMOUNT OF DATA THAT WILL ONLY GET LARGER. It's unreasonable to ask them to log that kind of data, and also very expensive to them.

caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

Cost was a big issue.

My understanding of this was that companies had a big problem with this due to cost. They wanted to know who was going to pay for all this retention of records. DOJ pretty much passed it on as a cost of doing business, kind of the good of society thing. All I know if major ISPs agree to do this then my usggestion is to buy stocks of network storage companies that might get a piece of the storgae pie.
--
President Hillary Clinton! Are you scared yet?


Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY
reply to N3OGH

Re: Easy Solution

Now imagine having a small printer in your car. Everytime you go above 65mph it prints you a out a nice ticket.
--
Semper Fi


Obliteration
Premium
join:2005-09-18
Somewhere

1 recommendation

reply to GhostDoggy

Re: DOJ Bullying?

said by GhostDoggy:

Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly.

Besides, trying to store millions of subscribers data for a year, let alone two, would be astronomical in costs. Heck, most can't support a robust NNTP server let alone capture and retain for periods of 6-8 times longer than the most premiere new service already afoot.

I think the DOJ needs to take a basic computing class, because they obviously are asking ISPs to turn straw into gold.
Agreed. Child sex offenders have existed many centuries ago to barely decide that the Internet will be a tremendous tool for helping them solve the cases a lot faster is BS when in reality it seems all they want to do is spy on people and invade their privacy.


Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23

Your Right to Privacy

Where is it written? »netsecurity.about.com/od/newsand···ghts.htm

Draw your own conclusions.
--
"tick...tick...tick..." »www.jtf.org/


TScheisskopf
World News Trust

join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ

1 recommendation

reply to insomniac84

Re: IP Logs should be saved.

said by insomniac84:

It's stupid if some law enforcement officer tracks down the IP address of a criminal and gets a warrant for identifying information and then upon contacting the ISP being told that the logs are lost every month so there is no way to identify the criminal. These logs should be retained for a couple of years for investigation purposes.
Now tracking the sites people visit and handing that data over to the government is unacceptable. That's just as bad as the phone spying. The government should not know what everyone does all day on the internet and they shouldn't know who we call and our exact gps coordinates either.
Ballocks. If there is one constant in this life, it is the fact that something like this will be abused. Not might, WILL. Some bright young political appointee or some not so bright DoJ lawyer, LEO or someone with an axe to grind will use this information in ways and manners unintended and dishonest and guarenteed to erode and abrogate already shopworn constitutional rights.

It has always been thus and it ain't about to change.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to the fact that when it comes to the finer points of The Constitution, Alberto Gonzalez is a very good real estate lawyer.

One more thing: All this government data that is going lost, stolen, missing and whatever. You know, sensative personal data of veterans and whatnot? Do you really think this is a coincidence?

As if. It's bidness, most foul. You don't think that this data would end up being trafficked in the same way?

Another hearty "as if".


N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
kudos:2
reply to Tomek

Re: Easy Solution

I'd be broke

JJV
Premium
join:2001-04-25
Seattle, WA

Same as wiretaping

This is the same as bugging our phones.
We shouldn't be logged or recorded.


insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
reply to TScheisskopf

Re: IP Logs should be saved.

Well then maybe not keep it for a few years, but a set time frame needs to be standardized. Even if that time frame is a month. Police will need to know how long they have to get the information they seek. Of course all of this is pointless if the government just tells ISPs that they have to assign people a static ip address.
And sure they aren't currently giving the government everyone's browsing habits, but they are selling that information to marketers and anyone else willing to pay for it.


nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
reply to Tomek

Re: Easy Solution

said by Tomek:

That kind of thinking will cause lots of problems in future.
Maybe cars manufacturers should install black boxes in cars to monitor their driving and sent that info to PD so they print you tickets for all little violations.
Pretty much all new cars shipped in the use for the last 7 years have a telemetry box in them. They are continuously recording information to a memory ring that holds about 5-10 seconds worth of data (enough to help in accident investigations).

said by Tomek:

People should have implanted RFID so we can tell where everybody was a time, would help solve murder cases.
They already have implantable chips. They already use non-implanted chips for similar purposes.

-tom
--
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

1 recommendation

reply to JJV

Re: Same as wiretaping

said by JJV:

This is the same as bugging our phones.
We shouldn't be logged or recorded.
I agree and the next time you have the opportunity to vote get rid of these fools who use the U.S. Constitution as toilet paper. I know I will.
--
Never argue with an idiot, they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.


biopaul

join:2001-03-01
Bryn Mawr, PA

I can just imagine ....

And what if a child porno site is hosted on a URL with a dynamic IP, say for a month, thereafter the same IP is allocated to someone hosting, say, "The Life and Times of Mary Poppins".

How is this going to logged?

I can just imagine law inforcement will go after everyone that browsed to the IP, irrespective what was actually the host site.

scooper

join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
kudos:2
reply to caco

Re: Cost was a big issue.

The answer to the government should be - " we are not paying to keep that amount of data. YOu want it - YOU provide the storage - and I mean QUICK (monthly downloads from the begining)" .

Otherwise - I see "lots of accidents" happening...


bent
and Inga
Premium
join:2004-10-04
Loveland, CO
reply to insomniac84

Re: IP Logs should be saved.

said by insomniac84:

It's stupid if some law enforcement officer tracks down the IP address of a criminal and gets a warrant for identifying information and then upon contacting the ISP being told that the logs are lost every month so there is no way to identify the criminal. These logs should be retained for a couple of years for investigation purposes.
Now tracking the sites people visit and handing that data over to the government is unacceptable. That's just as bad as the phone spying. The government should not know what everyone does all day on the internet and they shouldn't know who we call and our exact gps coordinates either.
I agree. ISPs should keep IP addy records, and then hand them over when ordered by a WARRANT. They should also give monitoring capability to law enforcement if they have a WARRANT.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Seems pretty simple to me, folks.
--
WAR IS PEACE. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.


N10Cities
Premium
join:2002-05-07
Fort Smith, AR
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to Tomek

Re: Easy Solution

said by Tomek:

Now imagine having a small printer in your car. Everytime you go above 65mph it prints you a out a nice ticket.
Some rental car companies out there use GPS receivers in their rental vehicles to track the speed you are driving their vehicles and charge you a fine if you go over a certain speed. I remember an article about that and the uproar it caused awhile back...but we are getting off-topic a bit...


N10Cities
Premium
join:2002-05-07
Fort Smith, AR
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to GhostDoggy

Re: DOJ Bullying?

said by GhostDoggy:

Using child pornography as the excuse for attempting to mandate this kind of requirement is pure BS. They have alterior motives, but no one seems brave enough to confront them on it publicly.

Besides, trying to store millions of subscribers data for a year, let alone two, would be astronomical in costs. Heck, most can't support a robust NNTP server let alone capture and retain for periods of 6-8 times longer than the most premiere new service already afoot.

I think the DOJ needs to take a basic computing class, because they obviously are asking ISPs to turn straw into gold.
Hmmmm.....I'll bet companies like EMC and others that specialize in NAS storage solutions WOULD LOVE to see this come to pass....because their business would grow by leaps and bounds! Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc already are a big boost...nothing really wrong with that...just an observation...


81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:2

1 recommendation

hope laws pass

I hope the proposed bills that are going thru congress pass and force ips to collect data


Geminimind
Premium
join:2003-12-20
Sacramento, CA
reply to N10Cities

Re: DOJ Bullying?

That's right and were paying them to snoop into our lives through federal taxes. They just want to be high tech peeping toms like we are some sort of reality tv show.


Tomek
Premium
join:2002-01-30
Valley Stream, NY
reply to N10Cities

Re: Easy Solution

Gotham Dream Cars in NYC, do that stuff, the can remotely disable your car if it's in violation of rules (ie speeding, etc)
--
Semper Fi

bamabrad

join:2006-01-27
Port Orange, FL

Trying to figure out...

Should I be concerned with somebody looking to see where I've been surfing- I'm REALLY trying to figure out the problem here.


SilenceGold
Premium
join:2003-07-31
Canyon Lake, TX

1 edit

Their point is..

To prevent child pornography from being spread around the internet. To prevent that, they need to track down those internet users who spread those content. Without ISPs' cooperation, they can't do it.

It is sad that they are more concerned with child pornography than any other rampant Internet crimes such as phishing, stolen identifies, stolen laptops, piracy, DDOS, cracking/defacing and so on. They chose to use only the "child pornography" as an ammo to gain "logging capabilities" of all the Internet users (even innocent ones). I know that we should not compare the child pornography to any other crimes because it is impossible when you got an image of child looming in your head then when you try to compare that to what you are looking at which could be millions of $ being loss in other types of crimes.

They approached the ISPs wanting the logging capabilities to be started so they can start the steps of prevention only for child pornography while not mentioning any of the other crimes. They spread those examples of the child pornography images to hit into those executives' hearts. That's a kind of lowball push from the government system for privacy invasions.

The Government needs to look for alternative ways to reduce the child pornography crimes.


nixen
Rockin' the Boxen
Premium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA
reply to N10Cities

Re: DOJ Bullying?

said by N10Cities:

Hmmmm.....I'll bet companies like EMC and others that specialize in NAS storage solutions WOULD LOVE to see this come to pass....because their business would grow by leaps and bounds! Sarbanes-Oxley, HIPPA, etc already are a big boost...nothing really wrong with that...just an observation...
Actaully, no, disk makers won't really benefit. That's not the type of data you keep on disk. Companies, like StorageTeK and ADIC, that make large tape libraries and companies, like Iron Mountain, that store tapes would benefit most.

-tom
--
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficial. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding." -Louis D Brandeis