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Comments on news posted 2006-07-18 17:31:04: Missing from Verizon's FiOS FAQ is the disclosure that one cannot go back to DSL after install - a simple concern that has started to get some attention among bloggers (we first mentioned this last year). ..
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 BPLSUCKS
join:2006-04-26
Grand Ledge, MI
| Yea... If every clec and telco ran their own copper the over head lines in our area would look like an old fashioned t1 with all the 64kbps lines. No thanks. I think they should have fiber between CO's no matter who own's it and copper/fiber to the home. Fiber for normal use and copper as emergency when the power goes out. Line neutrality is like net neutrality. When the government declares that you can control what goes over your connection at the backbone spare government traffic then we as consumers are screwed and I'm moving to europe. | |
| wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH | What about an alarm system My alarm company requires a POTS line as part of the service. Digital service is not sufficient. I wonder if this will screw some peoples alarm system contracts.
puritan | |
| | pabster
join:2001-12-09
Waterloo, IA
 ·Mediacom
| Re: What about an alarm system Of course you want POTS for an alarm system anyway. What good would it be if the alarm went off and your Internet connection was down (for whatever reason) at that time? Just isn't worth the risk, regardless of whether your contract with the provider specifies it or not.
You've found one of the last few remaining reasons to keep a POTS line. Congratulations. | |
| | | 
Lee GWB
Yaco
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ
 ·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: What about an alarm system Hi,
I wonder what happens if the pole across the street has a tree fall on its wires during a storm.. Guess what Fios POTS goes down. POTS is as vulnerable as fios.
I have had Fios for about a year now and it has never gone down. Had DSL 4 yrs ago and had NO Pots for 2 days due to a Nor'easter.. Non issue..In my opinion.
Lee
--
"I Don't feel Tardy" www.gwbmcfund.orgWhen Clinton Lied , All that was left was a stained dress.When Bush lied ,all that was left was 2000 + less US Soldiers.. | |
| jchin
join:2005-10-05
10300 | got Verizon Fios and kept my copper I got my Verizon FiOS without giving up my copper. It takes a little doing but you can order it that way. Just ask and insist on not giving up the copper. Tell them you want to keep DSL as a backup. | |
| ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT
| .. Common sense will tell u that Verizon will not be maintaining two sets of networks. Eventually, there will be NO COPPER left except whats inside your house. If youre THAT WORRIED about a backup UPS not being sufficient, get a generator.
I bet half the people that complain about this "problem" have voIP anyway. sigh | |
| Timmn
join:2000-04-23
Tinley Park, IL | What happens if........ You move into a house where the previous owner had FiOS and you, for whatever reason, don't want it. Would you be stuck with it? | |
| | Sammer
join:2005-12-22
Canonsburg, PA
| Re: What happens if........ Yes you would be stuck with FiOS, if you want service from Verizon. If a customer served out the local Verizon CO here gives up Verizon online DSL or Verizon POTS service then they can only get DSL or POTS from a CLEC. Because of FiOS installations there will probably be dry pairs available for some time but rumor has it that Verizon will not install any new copper pairs in the CO so eventually as the current pairs fail there will be no copper pairs. | |
| intermediary
join:2006-01-15
Coppell, TX
|  I am "one blogger realizes" - UPDATE & CLARIFICATION !
"Verizon currently might be spending $500 to $600 per home deploying FTTP, Bath conjectured, which is below Lehman Brothers' initial estimates of $750 per home but still about twice what AT&T is spending on FTTN ($250 to $300 per home).
In addition, although Verizon's stock is currently priced higher than that of any other Bell company, it dropped more than 22% in 2005, while that of AT&T, BellSouth and Qwest Communications rose 0.3%, 1.8% and 27.3%, respectively.
'The market is very skeptical of FiOS spending," Bath wrote, "We believe that if Verizon shares continue to lag its peers and the broader market, it may substantially scale back its fiber build before the end of 2006, due to poor economics and the technical and regulatory delays associated with rolling out video.'"
»telephonyonline.com/fttp/news/le···_010406/
I found this dslreports.com post because an annonymous person going by "PDX-PLT" posted a comment on my blog post linked to in this dslreports post. He (or she) gave me all the reasons why Verizon has the right and business obligation to not allow their DSL customers to go back to DSL. I agree, but I'm just saying that Verizon needs to have clear, conspicuous, complete, and comprehendable disclosure about "no turning back", since their "30 day money back guarantee" implies that their DSL customers have everything to gain and nothing to loose."
See how Verizon now inconspicuously puts the "no turning back" disclosure in their "Verizon Online Policies" link at the bottom of their home page, but says above that link ""Acceptance of Verizon Online Terms of Service is required"." I wish Verizon would use the same keyword terminology in both places as some less web sophisticated people may get confused and never find Verizon's TOS # "[8.4 Conversion from DSL Service to Verizon Fios Internet Service. At such time as Verizon is able to provision the Service utilizing fiber optic technologies, we may in our discretion terminate your DSL Service and no longer make DSL service available to your location. In cases of such termination, we will offer to you Verizon Fios Internet Service and we will disclose to you applicable rates and additional terms, if any, and such rates and terms may differ from the DSL Services provided under this Agreement."]
While someone here said they have both copper and fiber, that must be extremely unusual, as when I directly asked Verizon if I could do that, they said "NO"! See my latest post on FiOS:
»www.brokerblogger.com/brokerblog···con.html | |
| | TheDei0niz3r
join:2006-07-18
Capitola, CA
| Re: I am "one blogger realizes" - UPDATE & CLARIFICATION ! If you can't handle the cost of fiber then don't get it today! It will become cheaper just like DSL in time. Also if you care aobut copper ask them if you can keep it if you get FIOS, if not don't get it, its that easy!
I wouldn't really care about the the price if they give me friggin symmetrical down/up, its such BS that they give you shit for upload these days. I've checked into atleast in my area and even 1.5 down / 1.5 up isn't even offered. Specially wiht voice services and many people sending pictures to others, people are needing more upload and wonder why there internet is still slow when they have 6mbps down but only 256kbps up, if your upload is fully used its going to slow to a crawl as ack packets can't even make it back, making just loading webpages slow!
So I want to know what kind of speeds they are actually going to offer for me spending all these money on FIOS and is their network going to be overloaded and suck like it does today? That's why I'm with another company for DSL because their networks are overloaded, causing slow connections at peak internet usage times. If you're going to fuckin offer these speeds give me that speed all the the time, not just when no ones on the internet! Either upgrade your network to handle everyone at the speeds advertised or advertise slower speeds that your current network can handle, seriously there needs to be something done about their false advertising, but they get away with it because of the "fine print." I hope one of these days SBC and Verizon get whats coming to them because they are worse then most criminals, as they sneakly steal from you rather then know exactly what they are up to in the first place, staying away from them if possible. Atleast criminals you know that are only doing it out of need... Not violent or sex offender criminals they are certinally the worst people on earth and should be shot into outer space with no suit, just strapped to a rocket and probably distergrate before even reaching space!
Well there is my rant, so give me FIOS, but only if your network is going to give me the speeds advertised all the time! And for the people who can't afford it wait for it to come down in price. And do I care about the people I'm selling the house to? Just have it disclosed when selling, then they will know what they are buying into! Now isn't that simple, sorry but many people aren't to bright and get whats coming to them, me on the other hand know how to handle my own, so thats what matters to me! (End Rant) | |
| 
notalone
@verizon.net
| There will be a date certain... The analogue copper signal will die by a date certain...
Don't forget, Verizon IS overlaying FIBER AS REPLACEMENT technology. The copper plant is slow being pulled from the poles and decommissioned from underground feeder lines and replaced with new fiber. When 90-100% of a central office customer base is on fiber, the remaining percentage WILL GET KICKED OFF, and have their copper replaced. Its a simple inevitable fact.
The date certain will vary by central office, but since deployment in lots of the Northeast has drawn to a crawl.. that's not happening anytime soon. The key to possibly keeping the copper pair is to NOT let the tech cut the areal that runs from the pole to the home. That is a $150 charge to reconnect (copper install charge)-- that is if you have ANY DOUBT you'll may not want the fiber after first 30 days. My copper areal remains, but as time goes on, it will be less and less likely they'll want to connect customers to the copper plant, if at all. The central office will entirely be run on FIBER from Central Office to the Home with aggregate bandwidth for Voice, Video, and Internet.
If power is a concern, get a cell phone for emergencies (doesn't need service/activation for 911).
Don't forget, the remaining copper pairs will only have as much backup power at the central office as is run on the fiber system.. those power backups are for the entire system. When they give out, that's all folks.. but I think during minor blackouts they will keep internet and video running along with phone service.. if its a regional/national emergency, they could limit or kill those off to conserve for dial tone at their discretion.
The feeling of safety people have with copper pair was and is overrated. If you REALLY want to feel safe in times of crisis, you should get a decent cb radio, gmrs radio, generator (extra gas on hand, duh!), extra batteries, and a disaster kit (two, one for the home, and another for 'grab and go') | |
| intermediary
join:2006-01-15
Coppell, TX
| Re: I am "one blogger realizes" - UPDATE & CLARIFICATION ! "If you can't handle the cost of fiber then don't get it today!" - Verbally, I was assured of not paying anymore money for the min. 5/2 FiOS than my min. DSL service for the first year's contract while getting better speeds. Then I was told it will only go up $5.00 per month after that first year. I'll have no problem with that if that is, in fact, what happens.
"It will become cheaper just like DSL in time" - What time period are you talking about? You may be retired or dead by that time as competition for fiber suppliers in one area is non-existent. The only hope is wireless, and Verizon is afraid of future improved wireless technology or Google's dark fiber.
"Also if you care aobut copper ask them if you can keep it if you get FIOS, if not don't get it, its that easy!" - You obviously didn't read my last paragraph! I did ask, but because Verizon had no "no turning back" disclosure at all to begin with, I just assumed I could "turn back" to copper DSL due to the "money-back guarantee". Dslreports.com, OmMalik, and a few other online sources were some of the first voices to spread the word about "no turning back". I think it took the FTC and the FCC to get involved for Verizon to have a written disclosure now.
That leads me to the issue of TRUST. It seems that you have that same general issue with Verizon on another matter = "..they sneakly steal from you rather than know exactly what they are up to in the first place,.." Join the crowd who believe the same thing you do - No Upfront clear, conspicuous, complete, and comprehendable disclosure (unless they are forced to do it).
Check out this rant on Verizon FiOS's TOS and focus on section 8.3 (Re: using Vonage or a cell phone - "THIS IS THE WINNER!") of Verizon FiOS's TOS:
»www.freenetworks.org/pipermail/n···624.html | |
| | tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| Re: I am "one blogger realizes" - UPDATE & CLARIFICATION ! Those provisions were put in the TOS to guarantee Verizon their due ROI [return on investment], as initial costs were topping $2,000 per home connected (now 65% less)
And for what?!? so a customer can say the next month, take it out, I don't want it, remove the fiber areal as well?!?
Jeez. Tell the cable company the same thing, they'll look at you kinda funny too.
Some people's concerns are justified, but in areas with a cable provider, you could for the time being get broadband through them and keep the copper line in place. Eventually battery technologies will become alot more robust, but development is really slow as molasses... I still can't figure out why they can make a mini hydrogen fuel cell racing car, but yet you can't get a water powered fuel cell for the verizon ONT as a backup option, hehehe..
Really, how many watts more is it....
BTW, some of the FiOS hub central offices/head-ends are running ENTIRELY on fuel cell power delivered over natural gas lines! But, the gas isn't the fuel source, the hydrogen mixed in is.. so their bill per year is like $800 per year for hydrogen based electricity. But: here's the kicker, they paid 50% of the cost of the system which is like $400,000 upfront (you guessed right, a NY state/federal EPA program doling out your tax dollars)! Clean renewable power that is fractions of a penny on the dollar for Verizon. Just as FIOS isn't cost effective to put everywhere, so is this..
Once hydrogen applications get much, much cheaper, almost everything will run on the source. It will eventually be putting a few Arabs out of business. Imagine telling your your grandchildren about gasoline based cars, electricity plants, nimh batteries, produced primarly with petroleum from the middle east. Technologies that will seem rather tinker-toyish and limited/nonrenewable.
My rant: tell your children to become scientists/inventors, as we need cheap newable fuel sources produced domestically(aka WATER)! You can see in the news today that the Arabs would like nothing better than to start WW-3 over their prescious oil commodity! | |
| | |
DeeplyShrouded
@comcast.net
| One thing I don't understand.... Copper right now is very expensive.
Our news out here has shown reports of people stealing it
from construction sites, tangling it all up, and selling it
as scrap. I notice a lot of streets being ripped up,
copper being pulled and fiber being laid around here.
Technology may march forward but sometimes the old stuff is
just as good. (Spoken like a true ham operator).
For the person that said analog tv is going away, yes, you are
correct, but if you don't have cable and still want to
get HDTV, you can receive it over the air. You just need
an HDTV capable television and a good antenna on the roof.
I'm not sure rabbit ears will cut it, but then again,
I haven't tried receiving HDTV over the air.
I for one would love to have a 100 mbit connection, but
the reality is, how many sites can provide content that fast?
Until the entire backbone network that makes up the net in
the USA is upgraded to gigabit or faster, I doubt you'd
notice DSLR loading faster with a 100 mbit connection.
Seriously, can you tell how fast a page loads?
The only advantage of fast download is video content.
What people have been clamoring for is faster upload speeds.
--Deeply Shrouded & Quiet
--Central Control! D-Dial #49 | |
| | ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16
Stratford, CT | You talk as if the revenue generated by DSL is NOT paying for FiOS. LOL. Where do u think Verizon is getting the money from to pay for FiOS. | |
| fios troubl
join:2006-07-19
| keep your copper You really need to keep your copper to be safe if and when your power AND fuel supply will be a problem. Currently there are 80,000 people in our area without power since Tuesday. Some of them will get their power back only on a weekend. Imagine personal emergencies, disasters, attacks, evacuation notifications. By relying completely on high tech we increase our risk. Low tech backups like copper lines are crucial solutions for emergency situations. I have requested my copper line back after Tuesday's disaster when I lost power for 16 hours, and just got Verizon's consent. | |
| | madrhino
join:2004-07-03
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Re: keep your copper You are about to be jumped on by a bunch of fanatic pro-verizon trolls.They pollute every thread on this topic in order to distract from the issue.Soon you will be informed that you are either stupid,behind the times,screwing it up for the rest of us or probaly all of the above.
| |
| | | fios troubl
join:2006-07-19
| Re: keep your copper I've been jumped already in a different section of this forum. However, I have good news. Not only I got an immediate, same day support from my state's consumer protection agency (their lawyer called me back last night), but today I got a call from Verizon. They are working on my request. I will keep you updated on how long it took VZ to reinstall my emergency copper line. If I haven't gotten this response, my next contact would be the department of homeland security, police/FBI, other emergency response agencies, media. I hope that my and other people concern will not go unnoticed. I feel that I am saving US from future disasters due to some people having a "dangerous lack of imagination". [Disclaimer: I like Verizon Fios. But I need my emergency copper back].  | |
| | | | SD6
join:2005-03-26
| Re: keep your copper said by fios troubl  :Not only I got an immediate, same day support from my state's consumer protection agency (their lawyer called me back last night), but today I got a call from Verizon. They are working on my request. what state are you in? | |
| 
Rob A
Same Old Jets
Premium
join:2005-01-17
Pompton Plains, NJ | Who gives a hoot Fiber is the future, time to rip out of the copper. | |
| 
StarFish267
join:2005-11-25
Fort Worth, TX
·AT&T U-Verse
| Commericals on T.V. Well I do keep seeing all these cable commericals saying "Stop the Phoneys" complaining about the want for new technologies and the people who don't want Fiber would be the minority probably less than 10% at a guess. The only issue is the price other than that everyone wants better service... | |
| 
batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs: | Bite me. What is with you people. Do you want to kill FIOS?? Copper must die. You cable stooges make me want to puke. | |
| |
TampaGrl
@verizon.com | Re: Bite me. Get a clue - people who want to keep copper phone lines are not 'backward' or 'old-fashioned' - I live in a hurricane-prone area (we had FOUR in 2004), and I want phone service when everything else (new fashioned) fails! | |
|
batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
clubs: | You don't want copper you want a free ride. at&t's landline bleeding continues, the company losing 857,000 local lines, more than analysts predicted.
You don't want copper you want to screw with the phone companies so special interests can hustle a buck at America's expense. | |
|
GrumpyGrizzley
@sbcglobal.net
| Copper Availability AT&T's FTTN is intended to provide speed options at up to about 3000 feet from your local "cross connect", the local boxes nearer homes where the CO cables are matched to the distribution area pairs to the individual buildings. Fiber is brought to that box where the 'mini-dslam-like' box overlays signal on the copper connection. Sure, I'd prefer fiber, but this does give me the e911 link a bit more stably. Those boxes are backed up by battery for 5-8 hours and the central offices are battery-and-generator (which is exercised and tested regularly).
I agree with the concern about e911 access with VOIP. That's why I do have UPSes and if power reliability becomes a problem will get a generator to sustain me longer.
Some have commented on the CLEC question. Unfortunately - in my opinion - that was a special interest joke. The Telecom Reform Act of 1996 was supposed to spur competition. HA! Just as someone commented, most CLECs were just using UNEP (unbundled network element platform) and collecting on the difference. So much for investing in networks. VZ is spending probably 1000 per household without guarantee of return on investment. A few CLECs actually built networks, but most of those are focused on 'cherry picking' as in going for the profitable business market, or high-end residential. The ROBCs don't have the choice about service to 'lifeline' basic service only, no long-distance, etc. Sure, I don't think telephone service should be a 'luxury'. Just if the competitors really are competing, they need similar mandates/rules.
The cable companies have done a good marketing job. They did have the headache and extortion of "Franchise Agreements" but want to 'compete' with the RBOCs on unequal footings. In CA, at least, the governor recently signed legislation to remove the local franchise (giving cable the option, like RBOC, to have the statewide franchise). Their phone option is also VOIP and subject to similar loss of power. When you start comparing things, it gets messy, doesn't it?
From what I hear, most people like the new services and their marketing is going well. Geeks like me love the fast net access. Personally, I don't WATCH tv, so i couldn't care much less about HD, etc.
They want to rip out copper because it's one less thing to maintain and provisioning and maintenance is far simpler. A lot of the changes are software implemented, so the order never needs human hands if you order it online  With copper, someone has to physically do wiring in the CO, often enough.
It's sort of fun. We all seem to want to have our cake and eat it, too. Unfortunately the reality is that the big cable/telecom companies are the short-term, quarter-to-quarter thinking of public companies. At least there are innovations in the making, created by a healthy world market for technologies. We do tend to get what we're willing to pay for, don't we? | |
| caymanag
join:2006-11-15
Boston, MA | Easy to connect secondary UPS battery backup I'm considering getting FIOS - will it be easy to connect my APC Battery Backup?
Thanks, Cayman | |
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