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Comments on news posted 2006-07-16 10:51:19: William Black, of the Journal Gazette, writes about the unnerving revelation that Verizon, Bell South and AT&T might have enabled the National Security Agency to monitor private calling patterns of 200 million Americans. ..
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 | | great time to leave the country  | |
| |  pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD | Re: great Seeya! I hope more of your kind follow suit. Nothing has pissed me off more than hearing those who keep saying they want to move not actually follow through with it.
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Tancredo 2008! | |
| | | | | Re: great "Nothing has pissed me off more than hearing those who keep saying they want to move not actually follow through with it."
You must not have many problems in your life for this to take such a toll. Nothing pisses me off more than a government that constantly removes our rights, and monitors our activity. 200 Million Americans are currently participating in Terrorist activity? Looks like grandma's and pet parlors are being monitored at the tax payers expense.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety" Benjamin Franklin. | |
| | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: great said by daniyel:"... Nothing pisses me off more than a government that constantly removes our rights, and monitors our activity." In this particular case, what right did we lose? | |
| | | | | wtansillNcc1701
join:2000-10-10
Falls Church, VA | Re: great said by rradina:said by daniyel:"... Nothing pisses me off more than a government that constantly removes our rights, and monitors our activity." In this particular case, what right did we lose? How about the right of 300 million US Citizens not to be actively monitored or spied on in their daily lives and communications? I'd say that that's a fairly important right. Here are a few quotes (three from former US Supreme Court Justices) that might serve to enlighten you:
"The makers of the Constitution conferred the most comprehensive of rights and the right most valued by all civilized men—the right to be let alone."
-JUSTICE LOUIS D. BRANDEIS
"Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evilminded rulers.The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal well meaning but without understanding."
JUSTICE LOUIS D. BRANDEIS
"The fantastic advances in the field of communication constitute a grave danger to the privacy of the individual."
EARL WARREN
"It is the invariable habit of bureaucracies, at all times and everywhere, to assume... that every citizen is a criminal. Their one apparent purpose, pursued with a relentless and furious diligence, is to convert the assumption into a fact. They hunt endlessly for proofs, and, when proofs are lacking, for mere suspicions. The moment they become aware of a definite citizen, John Doe, seeking what is his right under the law, they begin searching feverishly for an excuse for withholding it from him."
H. L. MENCKEN
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That which does not kill me merely prolongs the agony. | |
| | | | | | rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO | Re: great So is a speed trap illegal? Is a DUI checkpoint illegal? Is it illegal for the government to monitor your property and note home improvements that increase its value? What about the census? | |
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| | | | | Get it right. The government is us, our so called "rights" have been undermined and destroyed by the ACLU and other alleged watchdog groups FOR YEARS... Lets see, sex predator is released by the courts because he served his time, kills a teen and himself. Who to thank? The lawyers. 40% of the department of Interior budget goes to fight activist green groups in court with their junk science. The forests aren't thinned and much of the Mogollon rim burns in AZ two years ago and Lots of California is on fire right now. Who to thank? The lawyers. You think you have a right to privacy? Horse manure, it's not in the US Constitution. It's an "inferred" right by those 9 sorcerers in DC aka the Supremes. I trust the FEDs more than any other group, Lawyer or otherwise. You worry that they're watching you? That's so arrogant as to be beyond reason, unless they should be watching. | |
| | | | | ALapo
join:2001-06-11
Washington, DC | Re: great No right to privacy?
U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | |  calvoiper
join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA | Re: great Amen to placing the focus on "unreasonable".
As for rights, I'd appreciate having my right not to be harassed by dirtbags restored--along with my right not to have my property stolen or vandalized. However, the endless babble of coddling criminals in the name of "rights" has created the "right" to punish success and the "right" to see one's own failures rewarded by various government handouts and excuse-generating bureaucracies.
As for "reasonable", the use of pen registers to record called numbers does not require a warrant, and hasn't in the past. It is legally similar to recording the license numbers of all cars traversing a certain bridge or intersection--it's merely an observation of traffic, not an examination of content. Likewise, the "message unit detail" or "MUDs" reporting calls in and out are often acquired by law enforcement without a warrant.
I now believe that America's lefties aren't upset about the various surveillance operations since 9/11 because they are worried about liberties, but that they are instead upset that the current administration is indeed doing something to thwart terrorist activity (unlike the last administration, which concentrated on building walls between the FBI and the CIA and figuring out reasons to turn down Sudan's offer to surrender OBL.)
Only a hypocritical looney can say that America's ability to secretly track international money transactions and to thereby track terrorist funding is a bad thing and that disclosing it was a good thing. This was a real secret worth protecting. And BTW, the employment status of a domestic CIA analyst already known to most of the Washington press corps is not worth protecting--though the identity really worth knowing might well be the surgeon who provided her latest face lift. She does look so much better than those old photos in the car and the restaurant, don't you think?
calvoiper
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VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies! | |
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| | | |  JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | said by Andromeda451:Get it right. The government is us, our so called "rights" have been undermined and destroyed by the ACLU and other alleged watchdog groups FOR YEARS... Lets see, sex predator is released by the courts because he served his time, kills a teen and himself. Who to thank? The lawyers. 40% of the department of Interior budget goes to fight activist green groups in court with their junk science. The forests aren't thinned and much of the Mogollon rim burns in AZ two years ago and Lots of California is on fire right now. Who to thank? The lawyers. You think you have a right to privacy? Horse manure, it's not in the US Constitution. It's an "inferred" right by those 9 sorcerers in DC aka the Supremes. I trust the FEDs more than any other group, Lawyer or otherwise. You worry that they're watching you? That's so arrogant as to be beyond reason, unless they should be watching. Your blind trust in the government is idiotic. | |
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| |  kamm
join:2001-02-14
Brooklyn, NY | said by pnh102:Seeya! I hope more of your kind follow suit. Nothing has pissed me off more than hearing those who keep saying they want to move not actually follow through with it. Actually time to drive out these lunatic retards from the government - and hopefully your kind will follow suit.
Nothing has pissed me off than hearing those who are too dumb to even recognise what is going on in this country for years now. | |
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| RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | *YAWN* Yes, and I like how you will follow through, just like all the anti-Bush movie stars who said they would leave the country in 2000 (and some again in 2004) if he was elected, and then found out they were not as popular as they thought (and did not leave).
As someone else pointed out, all hype and no substance to this. Certain forms of non-warrant tapping are legal and others are not. It sounds like some questions are: are they legal or not, and given that the tapping has pulled some arabs/muslims/kooks out of the wood work, what will be the legal status of those arrested/detained using this information if it is ruled that it was illegal? Turn them loose to try again?
If I sound a bit jaundiced at the media, I was in Vietnam when our 'free press' thought it would be nice to talk about certain confidential military operations, all part of the anti-war movement. Lost some friends because of them, which many of us thought was the point of the articles.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
| | | | | Re: great Really? And what operations were those? And the names of your friends so I can cross reference them to those known lost and missing in Vietnam? | |
| | | | RayWPremium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
kudos:1 | Re: great said by clickie:Really? And what operations were those? And the names of your friends so I can cross reference them to those known lost and missing in Vietnam? Marine Corps forward radar control sites for one example. As far as names, find them yourself.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. | |
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| | | I don't think so! While I can understand you lack in satisfaction for Ma Bell & Company to protect your privacy and at the same time be disgusted with the idea of federal agencies breaking federal laws, I would rather say it is time for a revolution on the current administration that supports this climate and not better protect the individual rights of people.
pnh102, "Nothing has pissed me off more than hearing those who keep saying they want to move not actually follow through with it." I know you meant this figuratively, because I am sure if I were your neighbor I would certainly know how to push the right buttons to piss you off even more.  For instance, I could help 50,000 border crossers help take whatever future you may think you have--if I were your neighbor seeking to piss you off.  | |
| |  Grail KnightQui audet adipisciturPremium
join:2003-05-31
Valhalla
kudos:6 | Don't let the door hit you on the way out. | |
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| |  Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof
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| |  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
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1 edit | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof what exactly are you saying is wrong or non-factual? oh the irony. you are the pot calling the kettle black. | |
| | |  Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof said by morbo:what exactly are you saying is wrong or non-factual? oh the irony. you are the pot calling the kettle black. Those who make claims are expected to provide evidence supporting those claims, not those pointing out there is no evidence presented.
What the editorial writer presented as evidence is nothing more than pointing out various things may or may not be related. And even then much of it only looks the way he wants it to look if you think the landscape of phone companies is still as it was back in 1993, which it most certainly is not.
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gau gau | |
| | | |  tsu9
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof [...]not those pointing out there is no evidence presented.
This is slightly different. They aren't pointing out there is no evidence, but rather are saying that there will be no investgation. There is no admission nor denial and no due process. | |
| | | | | | | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof said by tsu9:[...]not those pointing out there is no evidence presented.This is slightly different. They aren't pointing out there is no evidence, but rather are saying that there will be no investgation. There is no admission nor denial and no due process. The problem with having an investigation of every accusation is that the contending parties will make non-stop accusations thereby preventing anything from being done at all. The whole activity of government would be nothing but non-stop investigations.
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| | | | | | tsu9
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof You say this, but you know that it isn't quite true. And, even if it were, that does not preclude proper investigations. As people are so fond of quipping, "if nothing wrong is being done, there is nothing to hide/fear."
Government without proper accountabilty is a horrific thing.
I'm not saying it is at that point, but when something relatvely simplistic as this is quietly pushed under the rug, it has no choice but raise questions about what is or is not happening. There is enough evidence to open an inquiry (though, not to the level of this conspiracy theorist's playground OP), but the government is simply not allowing any questioning of its methods or non-methods, and I find that a potentially more dangerous stance than simply allowing the investigations to properly continue.
Scrutiny is a very important aspect of our governmental process, let's not forget. | |
| | | | | | | JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
1 edit | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof People are forgetting that Bush has already admitted to illegal domestic eavesdropping programs. He has -admitted it-. There is no wiggle room for him. Plain and simple. These morons who are defending the administration and company for breaking the law and violating the Constitution would be calling for blood if this wasn't a republican administration. Fact. | |
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| | | | Combat ChuckToo Many CannibalsPremium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
2 edits | said by tsu9:This is slightly different. They aren't pointing out there is no evidence, but rather are saying that there will be no investgation. There is no admission nor denial and no due process. I'm not commenting on the fact that there isn't going to be an investigation, I'm commenting on morbo's insinuation that it's up to someone to prove something isn't true; which is something many people posting here think is a valid defense of their opinions. "I can't prove I'm right but you can't prove I'm wrong so until you can I'm right" is a ridiculous notion.
I don't agree with the original article, but it was from the editorial section so it wasn't really misrepresenting it self as hard facts. It's not the editorial writers fault that no one seems to have noticed that it was an editorial, tho I'm pretty confident that he doesn't mind that people are treating it as news.
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gau gau | |
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| | | | Its like the USA today article, they put out a big story, and then wait till the weekend to admit they may the whole thing up. You can't trust the media, they are nothing more than left wing commmunist pinkos, and the only good communist is a dead one! | |
| | | | tsu9
join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof McCarthy, is that you? | |
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| | | | | | | |  Rogue WolfAte Your Homework, And Framed The Dog
join:2003-08-12
Troy, NY | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof Ah, but you're forgetting the typical mindset:
"(Insert names of people I disagree with) are completely biased and don't know what they're talking about. However, (insert names of people I agree with) are fair and unbiased."
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Network failure. Hit any user to continue.
Confound a politician... think for yourself! | |
| | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof Oh, I didn't forget it.. just didn't mention it becuase I basically don't classify people that way - even though it's true. Those people are just a sign of party line thinkers which I mentioned.
MANY people, however, hate the word "compromise"... it's viewed as an evil word but the trust of the matter is that until people DO learn it and DO embrace it, we ARE going to continue to implode as a world.
There is not ONE shred of evidence of a society that has lasted where one thought, one mind, and one way of life "was the way" things were. It's not in the human nature to accept that.
People can disagree all they want, but until they stop worrying about who's bias or who's unbias... well, it all doesn't matter. It DOES matter when people FORCE *not their views* but they 'ways' onto others.
Good example. Gays and marriage.. a big wedge issue in this country.
People for it - just want to be equal and have the same rights as others. That group is not forcing the 'way' onto others.. they are not telling anyone they MUST marry the same sex.
People against it - they have a view of the way things should be and by fighting and doing anything they can to stop the other group from marrying because their beliefs or 'ways' say it's wrong, well that's forcing their 'ways' on to the other group.
This example happnes over and over in life. I am SO not religious, but I make NO effort to stop religion, and I have NO means to want to live by any of it's rules and beleifs.. I know that religion can exist so long as it's views or ways are not forced onto others. Unfortunately that group has a hard to recirprocating in return.
This all rounds back up to what you just mentioned.. ""(Insert names of people I disagree with) are completely biased and don't know what they're talking about. However, (insert names of people I agree with) are fair and unbiased.""
In my opinion, the civil war in this country NEVER ended. Comments like Archie Bunker above prove that to be true.
People are too worried about what someone else is doing to even worry about their own back yard any more. Distrust runs rampid, and life doens't move forward. Politicians no longer campaign on what they can do, rather, they spend their entire time pointing out the mistakes or downside of the other guy only to end their ad with "vote for me"..
Americans, and people in general, are so mind fu*ked that anytime a piece of news hits the airways it's easily dismissed as "the liberal media hating america" or "it's just a move to gain X"...
by the way, a little off the rant here, there are not two americas.. and there isn't one america.. there are MANY americas.. the land of the free gives us the right to persue happiness and one persons happiness is NOT going to be someone elses. Patriotism is for EVERYONE with all views.. not just those with the loudest mouth and those than can muster the popular view.
I think there ARE people that should leave the country, but it's isn't the so-called "liberal pinkos".. it's those that are opressing their fellow man.. that behaviour belongs in those awesome middle eastern countries. | |
| | | | | | | JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof What's ironic is how much in common the fake conservatives in America have with the islamic fundamentalists they claim to hate. | |
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| | | How hard is it to say, "as spokesperson for company X, we are not tracking, data mining, nor collecting information for ourselves, or for any external entity, federal or otherwise, that involves private information on our consumers."?
While I have not gone finding the content that originally sprouted the AT&T-NSA issue at hand, if someone delivers a bunch of paperwork that 'appears' to be in violation of federal wiretapping laws, it would be relatively easy for a company to state clearly not true and defend themselves in an open forum (no, not a web-forum) when J6P can ask the question.
I've found it difficult to take into any serious the claim by AT&T to not have its hands dirty when the way things have responded only further questions their truthfulness. BTW, wasn't documents provided to a newspaper originally on this subject? And its nice seeing how federal judges do a 180º about face after a White House visit. Yeah, nothing suspicious there. | |
| | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: Witch hunt - lots of accusations and no proof said by GhostDoggy:How hard is it to say, "as spokesperson for company X, we are not tracking, data mining, nor collecting information for ourselves, or for any external entity, federal or otherwise, that involves private information on our consumers."? It's not hard.. well, kinda. It's called 'leaving an open door for later spin'... to simply come out and say something direct is not the way things are done any more. They either did, or they didn't. If they didn't, why not just say so? If they did, then you would most likely get answers like they have so far said, or really didn't say. It leaves an open door for later 'interpreting' later when other things come flying out of the corporate closet that they need to discuss.
Plausible denability. | |
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| | William Black nailed it! What's left to discuss... except a demand for ousting of the current FCC commissioners, and the immediate roll-back of their over-generous anti-consumer decisions in order to bring the regulation of telecom into compliance with the intent of Congress as expressed in the Telecom Act of 1996, accompanied by the public censure and the bringing of criminal charges against the heads of NSA, CIA and the USAG. AND, finally, the removal by impeachment of our illustrious leader, GWB, and his entire rotten cabinet.
Somethings smells like dooty in D.C., and it ain't dead fish. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
 knightmbEverybody Lies
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN | Sorry, can't read minds........ yet...... We all know how this goes, if someone is doing something that favors one person but hurts another that is at odds with you, unless it's written down somewhere it will be dang near impossible to prove. Actions speak louder that words of course, but excuses can be made for any action.
If I go for a job interview and the human resources guy is my best friend, sure I'll probably get the job. The other guys applying for the job, if they knew we were buddies would get upset. The problem is, no one is a mind reader. They can accuse the HR guy of bias, but he can make up any excuse to explain why I was chosen to be hired instead of them.
It's the same thing here, if the FCC did give them a favor it's not going to be found in a secret document titled "We love Verizon, Bellsouth, AT&T, but hate Qwest.odt" file. It's all about the "Good 'ole boys" system that is universal the world round I'm afraid  | |
|  batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ | Fascism This is the government you voted for, why blame business?
TERRORISM, 9/11, PEDOPHILE | |
| | | Them Good Ole Boys knightmb, you are absoultely correct! The good ole boys
system is really what is America's problem today, not some
"liberal communist" agenda or some "conservative fascist"
agenda. It is the same at some jobs where a lot of people that are hired are those that the bosses know instead of hiring actually qualified applicants. The government will probably allow AT&T and the rest to create an tiered Internet in exchange for keeping quiet about any involvement with the NSA. The "I scratch your back, you scratch my back" system must stop in order for true competition and innovation in the broadband industry. We all know that AT&T, BellSouth and Verizon's attitude toward competition (especially smaller competition) is like that of a man with no fighting skill in a boxing ring against a woman's boxing champion. If you win(being the man), you wont get much credit, but if you lose, then you are crap! | |
|  The BeerI Love It When A Plan Comes TogetherPremium
join:2001-07-24
Atlantic, IA | Anyone know what that was? ...Similarly, when Qwest sought relief from certain regulatory obligations in a single city – Omaha – the FCC refused. Yet when Verizon asked for the same relief, the FCC quickly granted a form of relief that exceeded Verizon’s request and applied that relief to every state where Verizon provides service...
What was the regulation? Was it related to their cable entity being able to compete with the telco entity? | |
|  TOPDAWGPremium
join:2005-04-27
Midland, ON
3 edits | Key work might Hmm the key word in that whole story is might. Also monkeys might fly out of my ass tomorrow and take over the word. You heard it here first.
Also the news forking sucks now anyway. On to our top stores today 900 people were killed today now onto the weather it's going to be a beautiful day today and some dumb slut in Hollywood popped out a baby today too. I mean WTF? How can you go from talking about allot of people dying to how nice the weather is then talk about some dumb ass Hollywood person?
The weather fine but WTF do a care what is going on in Hollywood I don't know the bitch's and it's not going to effect my life. I don't care what they do and I damn sure don't care WTF they think on anything.
PS. How do I change my damn loc? | |
| |  jslikThat just happenedPremium
join:2006-03-17 | Re: Key work might said by TOPDAWG: Also the news forking sucks now anyway. On to our top stores today 900 people were killed today now onto the weather it's going to be a beautiful day today and some dumb slut in Hollywood popped out a baby today too. "We got the bubbleheaded bleach-blonde, comes on at 5
She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
It's interesting when people die, give us dirty laundry"
Don Henley wrote that over twenty years ago...nothing has changed. | |
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| | No Duh duh!
They did the gov't a favor and they expect something in return. Hmm, isnt that business? | |
|  Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Heh "William Black, of the Journal Gazette, writes about the unnerving revelation that Verizon, Bell South and AT&T might have enabled the National Security Agency to monitor private calling patterns of 200 million Americans."
Might have enabled?
I am sick and tired of these speculative actions if anything someone just break the freaking door to that room and find out what's in there. It's that simple. No need for a meeting.
Just so you know Abraham Lincoln did the same thing during the Civil war, lines where tapped because of it. | |
| | Reviews:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Heh Could you explain this a bit, are you saying Lincoln taped the telegraph?
In any case it would be a very limited number of people, nothing like this at all.
This wide scale taping if true is a dangerous road to travel, especially when you consider Governments tendency to overstep and keep expanding its power. | |
| | | Michieru2zzz zzz zzzPremium
join:2005-01-28
Miami, FL | Re: Heh Does not matter if it where a limited number of people, the point is he did it.
Moving on, a dangerous road indeed but what can be done now? Stop the government with yelling, doing riots, and crying wolf?
Pfft, like if that would ever work, your nothing but a number and so am I. That's the direction our government shall take, that's what it shall be.
The earth is not a infinite resource, but you should know that very well by now. | |
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RJ44
join:2001-10-19
Nashville, TN | Another retraction due? Someone should let Mr Black know that BellSouth immediately denied the allegations and demanded a retraction from USA Today when they broke the "news". Since then, BellSouth filed suit against USA Today, and lo and behold, USA Today did print a retraction.
Yet Mr Black lumps them in with the rest of them anyway. Nice journalism.  | |
| | JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | Re: Another retraction due? So the NSA is only breaking the law a little bit. The apologists keep forgetting that Bush has -already admitted to domestic eavesdropping and data collection-, which is illegal no matter how much spin the sycophants try to apply. | |
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| | GPS Tracking? Considering all new phones after 2005 are GPS enabled, this spying is getting dangerous. They claim they were recording numbers and call times, but also recording the GPS is probably just as easy as checking a box(Assuming they already aren't recording the GPS info). Basically our government will know where everyone is at all times and who we all talk to. | |
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See 6 replies to this post | |
| | Long Live Big Brother! Can you hear me now? | |
| | rug33
join:2006-07-20
Washington, DC | Re: Long Live Big Brother! Amazing. Every time I think my opinion of the Bells can't get any lower, I read something like this. | |
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