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Comments on news posted 2006-07-26 13:10:40: Consumer Affairs realizes something we've been talking about for over a year: that Verizon's "unlimited" wireless EV-DO broadband service is actually limited to 10 gigs a month or so, and features an end-user agreement that restricts everything but s.. ..


rit56
join:2000-12-01
New York, NY

1 edit

1 recommendation

rit56

Member

Net Neutrality

and they want us to believe they will not restrict any web sites. liars.... corporate liars. lock them into the contract and change the rules... liar liar... caught being dishonest. net neutrality anyone?

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: Net Neutrality

unlimited != limited. End of story
Just tell the users that they are limited and quite greasing them with cryptic and misleading marketing ads.

BuriedCaesar3
It's Not Polite To Stare.
join:2004-03-27
Richardson, TX

BuriedCaesar3

Member

Re: Net Neutrality

said by hopeflicker:

unlimited != limited. End of story
Just tell the users that they are limited and quite greasing them with cryptic and misleading marketing ads.
And just how could they possibly sell their cryptically constructed and multi-tiered service packages if they didn't? Hmmmm???
53059959 (banned)
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone

53059959 (banned) to hopeflicker

Member

to hopeflicker
why not just steal it? plenty of phones can do it, all you need is data services. i've downloaded well over 100 gigs without a peep via my phone & a data cable.

I only really use my phone for text messaging, so I figure I gotta make up for the $90/mo some other way

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid
join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ

NyQuil Kid to hopeflicker

Member

to hopeflicker
This is no different from when Comcast offers "unlimited" internet but then caps people when they use it.

[8F] The NyQuil Kid

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: Net Neutrality

said by NyQuil Kid:

This is no different from when Comcast offers "unlimited" internet but then caps people when they use it.

[8F] The NyQuil Kid
yes, but i dont think they advertise like that anymore

NyQuil Kid
8f The Nyquil Kid
join:2001-01-06
Brick, NJ

NyQuil Kid

Member

Re: Net Neutrality

One would hope

The Answer Guy

Anon

Re: Net Neutrality

Can we possibly complain about the same subject again please? We need to move on to bigger and better things. Come to think of it, this message is probably getting to repetative around here too.

phriday613
Your Avatar Is Nice... For Me To Poop On
Premium Member
join:2002-02-06
Eastchester, NY

phriday613 to rit56

Premium Member

to rit56
my favorite is their "family share plan" ads: Its only $10 extra..

You can only do that family share option with a $69.99 plan.. so its CHEAPER to get 2 x $35.99 plans then to pay $69.99 + 10 extra!

misleading people is not right.. either that, or anyone who is stupid to do the plan needs to learn to read..
cghh
join:2001-01-15
Milpitas, CA

cghh

Member

Re: Net Neutrality

said by phriday613:

my favorite is their "family share plan" ads: Its only $10 extra..

You can only do that family share option with a $69.99 plan.. so its CHEAPER to get 2 x $35.99 plans then to pay $69.99 + 10 extra!
The $69.99 plan includes the primary line and one share line. The third and subsequent lines cost $10 each. So it's $69.99 for two lines of Family Share, or 2*39.99 = $79.98 for two individual lines.

phriday613
Your Avatar Is Nice... For Me To Poop On
Premium Member
join:2002-02-06
Eastchester, NY

phriday613

Premium Member

Re: Net Neutrality

said by cghh:
said by phriday613:

my favorite is their "family share plan" ads: Its only $10 extra..

You can only do that family share option with a $69.99 plan.. so its CHEAPER to get 2 x $35.99 plans then to pay $69.99 + 10 extra!
The $69.99 plan includes the primary line and one share line. The third and subsequent lines cost $10 each. So it's $69.99 for two lines of Family Share, or 2*39.99 = $79.98 for two individual lines.
Hmm.. I wonder why I thought that it was the first line ONLY being $69.99 and subsequent lines being $9.99.. I guess I read it wrong.. I stand corrected!
DixieWins
join:2000-11-17
Palm Desert, CA

DixieWins to rit56

Member

to rit56
Sad Truth : Verizon can't be trusted. They lie when the truth would help them . . . and this is not new.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: Net Neutrality

said by DixieWins:

Sad Truth : Verizon can't be trusted. They lie when the truth would help them . . . and this is not new.
It's not just Verizon it's most all big businesses.

rachelsfx
join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL

rachelsfx to rit56

Member

to rit56
Does it mention any caps on the bill?

If it doesn't or uses ridiculous language a "reasonable" person couldn't understand, then it could be construed as mail fraud. That usage policy damn well better be on the bill. Otherwise, since all you see is "Unlimited" without caveats (if there are none), it is fraud.

I'd file the same complaint with the BBB and FCC and your state's AG.

Can you sue?

Yes. But, what are the damages? Damages will determine if a suit is worth bringing. If it impeded your business, then you could. Of course, you'd be in court for 3 years.

You could easily get out of your contract if it was sold as a package.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to rit56

Member

to rit56
A. this isnt network neutrality, its network transfer, its GB they monitor, not superHDOnDemand.com, they dont limit where you drive your car, just the amount of gas you get per month
B. Its in the fine print since day one, deal with it
C. There is no law that makes being a asshole illegal

pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium Member
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD

pnh102

Premium Member

BULLSHIT!

If most other ISPs dropped the references to "unlimited" access because of these things, then Verizon needs to do the same for its EV-DO product.

This is one of those few situations where regulatory agencies need to step in and tell Verizon that this isn't even remotely legal.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

1 recommendation

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: BULLSHIT!

*Hopeflicker* waiting for the industry shrills to defend their corporate pigs.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926

Member

Re: BULLSHIT!

Nope, Im usuallt pro Verizon, but using the word UNLIMITED is just wrong. They should say "unlimited web browsing"

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: BULLSHIT!

said by ITALIAN926:

They should say "unlimited web browsing"
Hell, I'll accept that in their ad
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to ITALIAN926

Member

to ITALIAN926

Re: Remind me to NEVER work for you!

Its not just web browsing. Its Anything. From TOS/AUP at
»www.verizonwireless.com/ ··· atId=409

I made my comments in {}s.
quote:
Unlimited NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess:

Subject to VZAccess Acceptable Use Policy, available
on www.verizonwireless.com.
NationalAccess and BroadbandAccess
data sessions may be used with wireless devices for the following
purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access
(including access to corporate intranets, email and individual
productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales
force and field service automation). Unlimited
NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess services cannot be used (1) for
uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games, (2) with
server devices or with host computer applications, including, but not
limited to, Web camera posts or broadcasts, automatic data feeds, Voice
over IP (VoIP), automated machine-to-machine connections, or
peer-to-peer (P2P) file sharing, or (3) as a substitute or backup for
private lines or dedicated data connections.
NationalAccess/BroadbandAccess
is for individual use only and is not for resale. We reserve right to
limit throughput or amount of data transferred, deny or terminate
service, without notice, to anyone we believe is using NationalAccess
or BroadbandAccess in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network
or service levels.
{Translation,
everything above just became useless in a court of law.} Verizon
Wireless reserves the right to protect its network from harm, which may
impact legitimate data flows. {Translation, even
if you do nothing wrong according to our written polcies, we can
terminate you for no reason.} We also reserve the right to
terminate service upon expiration of Customer Agreement term. {In case a court rules against us and the above, and we
still have to provide you service under the modified (by court)
contract, we can terminate you when the contract is over, or we decide
your not a profitable customer like Cingular does.}





insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

insomniac84

Member

They need to fix advertising.

If they are going to claim that the wireless spectrum is limited for data services, they need to stop advertising them like any home broadband connection.
They need to drop the terms unlimited and broadband and just call it a 10gig a month data service and charge a hefty fee for each gig after the 10.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

said by insomniac84:

If they are going to claim that the wireless spectrum is limited for data services, they need to stop advertising them like any home broadband connection.
They need to drop the terms unlimited and broadband and just call it a 10gig a month data service and charge a hefty fee for each gig after the 10.
Yep, users will ACCEPT and still buy their services if they even have a 10gig cap.

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW to insomniac84

Premium Member

to insomniac84
Yeah, but all they have to do is point at the McDonald's ads and say "Creative advertising!" (when was the last time you got a hamburger that was even close to the picture shown? And do not try to sue, that was done and the fast food industry won.)
WirelessMajr
Premium Member
join:2005-08-03
College Place, WA

WirelessMajr

Premium Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

I have a buddy who vacationed in Hong Kong for a month. He showed me a picture of his Big Mac...it looked EXACTLY like the picture.

Its just here in the States
Hasher
join:2000-06-19
Rocky River, OH

Hasher

Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

I have been a long time Verizon Customer but am starting to rethink my service when my contract is due in 2007. I am tired of these people saying we give you "Unlimited" Service only to find that the "Terms of Service" state you cant do this or that, and effectively restrict you to no usage at all and charge you an arm and a leg.

If you want to limit your service then don't use the word UNLIMITED.

ITALIAN926
join:2003-08-16

ITALIAN926 to WirelessMajr

Member

to WirelessMajr
quote:
I have a buddy who vacationed in Hong Kong for a month. He showed me a picture of his Big Mac...it looked EXACTLY like the picture.

Its just here in the States
Well, thats only because we're the fattest country on Earth and the consumers dont give a damn what it looks like. They just swallow blindly.

LilYoda
Feline with squirel personality disorder
Premium Member
join:2004-09-02
Mountains

LilYoda to WirelessMajr

Premium Member

to WirelessMajr
No no. The burgers looks like cow manure between 2 buns that has been stomped on by a T-rex in European McDonalds as well...

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker to RayW

Premium Member

to RayW
said by RayW:

Yeah, but all they have to do is point at the McDonald's ads and say "Creative advertising!" (when was the last time you got a hamburger that was even close to the picture shown? And do not try to sue, that was done and the fast food industry won.)
We're talking about definitions here, not pictures. Not every single hamburger will look the same.

Hamburgers are not uniform

unlimited has a defined meaning

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

Ummm...I WOULD like to get what I see, not half of it. Advertising is advertising, be it words or pictures. That is what I like about my ISP, they tell you up front what your limits are instead of hiding it in waffle/weasel words.

hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium Member
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA

hopeflicker

Premium Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

said by RayW:

Ummm...I WOULD like to get what I see, not half of it. Advertising is advertising, be it words or pictures. That is what I like about my ISP, they tell you up front what your limits are instead of hiding it in waffle/weasel words.
Yes, I agree with you. The pics are misleading however it seems people are mostly pissed because the vocabulary being use is down right lies. With pic's, size could be relative. I don't think the 10'x30' BigMac that i see on the billboard is gonnna work or even the 8"x15" BigMac that i see on the drive thru sign. That's just too much food for me.

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

Not talking about the picture size. Remember the pretty picture of the thick juicy meat patty, the fat red tomato slices, the visible slice of onion, the nice lettuce, the slices of pickle, and the nice fluffy bun?

Instead you get a dried out patty of something, and if you OPEN the ho-hum bun you might see a thin slice of anemic tomato, a sliver of onion, and some shredded lettuce, and maybe a piece or two of pickle. The visual equivalent of unlimited internet service.

(Oh, you can still get that burger as long as you stay away from the big burger chains. Go to most Fuddrucker's and put your own lettuce, pickle, tomato, and onion on a nice homemade bun with a nice cooked to order patty. And you can add a squirt or six of several flavors of melted cheese. Yumm-Yumm-Messy!).

dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium Member
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ

dvd536 to RayW

Premium Member

to RayW
said by RayW:

Yeah, but all they have to do is point at the McDonald's ads and say "Creative advertising!" (when was the last time you got a hamburger that was even close to the picture shown? And do not try to sue, that was done and the fast food industry won.)
oh yeah dont you know it. i've often wished i could have that one stacked the way they show it. and with GREEN LETTUCE!
does green lettuce even EXIST in the fast food industry?

RayW
Premium Member
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT

RayW

Premium Member

Re: They need to fix advertising.

said by dvd536:

does green lettuce even EXIST in the fast food industry?
Fuddruckers? Oh, wait. They are not fast (just good).
MrBentor
join:2003-02-18
Seattle, WA

MrBentor to insomniac84

Member

to insomniac84
VERY CLEARLY it states in the LETTER and ADVERTING "Unlimited"
Jeffrey Nelson, Verizon Wireless spokesman, said that calling the service, "unlimited" is not misleading.
VERY CLEARLY it states in the LETTER and ADVERTING "Unlimited"
"It's very clear in all the legal materials we put out," he said. "It's unlimited amounts of data for certain types of data," he said.
VERY CLEARLY it states in the LETTER and ADVERTING "Unlimited"
Verizon's terms and conditions hardly go out of their way to explain the limits on the company's "unlimited broadband access." Only once in the 20-page terms and conditions brochure, is the restriction explained, and then it is sunk in the final page in a sea of small font.
How Jeffrey Nelson, Verizon Wireless spokesman, can claim "unlimited" is not misleading and that it is very clear they mean "unlimited" for "certain types of data" when in fact they are not very clear is beyond credulity . If I were to have them in my court I would ding them for willful obfuscation. I would rule in a tort action against Verizon for improperly using the word “Unlimited” when in fact it is “limited.”

Legally it is calling non-fat milk 2%., or it calling “bottled artesian water” “purified city water;” which would bring you a nasty visit from the FDA.

As it is buried near the end of 20 pages of “terms and conditions” then they are indeed not clear when they are in direct opposition to the statement made both in their advertisements and their warning letter. For the contract and the advertisement to have legality they would not only have to state specific limits on their terms and conditions but they would have to make a [*] disclaimer on the advertisement.

The FTC could smack them pretty hard I think based on the conflict herein for violations of the “Truth In Advertising” rules.

[*] "Unlimited" doesn’t mean unlimited but means up to certain secret limits on certain kinds of data only.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

John Galt6

Premium Member

They Picked....

...the wrong group to piss off, I would say.


batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium Member
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

batterup

Premium Member

Verizon didn't advertise so they got slammed.

ConsumerAffairs.Com said
quote:
We are supported entirely by advertising and are not affiliated with any other consumer organization, government agency or corporation.
Verizon should have advertised on their site like third party DSL providers and WiFi providers do. If you live by advertising you are not independent.

DaSneaky1D
what's up
MVM
join:2001-03-29
The Lou

DaSneaky1D

MVM

Best line ever!

"It's unlimited amounts of data for certain types of data"

•••••••

noonee
@bellsouth.net

noonee

Anon

Unlimited What? !

From what I've seen being once on Verizons's plan all that is stated is "Unlimited" All by itself. I *may* be dead wrong and someone can point to exactly where it says something different, but I've never seen anything that qualifies what is unlimited. It could as easily be the time you are on the network. By the way ALL wireless carriers have in their TOS statements that allow them to cancel anyone they feel is adversely affecting their network. Wireless broadband has built in limits and all the carriers won't scale if they become heavily used by users thinking they can treat it as wired broadband and consume huge amounts for extended times (streams).

inteller
Sociopaths always win.
join:2003-12-08
Tulsa, OK

inteller

Member

WTF is "machine to machine"

Every internet transaction is machine to machine. When I request a web page it is routed through several machines and finally contacts a machine that then replies back to my machine. Verizon's terms are COMPLETELY retarded.

•••
jervin123
join:2005-04-14
Philadelphia, PA

jervin123

Member

Machine-To-Machine

No Machine-To-Machine activitys well you have to talk to another machine of some sort when doing anything over the internet. So why do they even run the service
AntonOlsen
join:2006-07-26
Marion, TX

AntonOlsen

Member

I've gotten the same letter

They sent me the same letter, stating I'd used more than 10G in a month when I'd averaged just over 3G for the last 6 months. I wonder if they had a rash of problems with their bandwidth montiors

raydog1
Feel Secure
Premium Member
join:2003-07-10
La Vergne, TN

raydog1

Premium Member

Re: I've gotten the same letter

We still haven't heard the best part to this story yet. What happened when Verizon realized their monitor was proven to be incorrect? How are they going to justify cancelling a big account like that when they were just plain wrong?

I guess it takes time to carefully craft a B.S. response. Something like, "We're so sorry. We're just doing everything we can to protect our bottom line QOS for all of our customers. Pardon our diligence."

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords

MVM

The Two-Tier Internet is Right Here

You can stream bandwidth-hogging music and downloads, upload pictures and movies, and download programs -- and do it all you want -- as long as you use Verizon's VCAST, Get-It-Now, or picture messaging to do so.

adol7
@arrival.net

adol7

Anon

Re: The Two-Tier Internet is Right Here

Well, there's no Vcast or GetItNow for the Q.

Authority
join:2000-03-29
Los Angeles, CA

Authority

Member

What happens when you use too much?

Do they cancel your account? Seems like an easy way to get out of a contract... hmmmmm.

•••

Pattttttt
@cox.net

Pattttttt

Anon

Verizon Cancelled Me for Downloading from iTunes

Same with me. I have a V cell phone; Liked it so much I bought one for my sister and at the same time, a PC5740 wireless card for my laptop. I didn't read the contract while at Circuit City buying the phone and the PC Card. The Verizon guy told me it was UNLIMITED use and that is what is printed on the receipt too. Who knew it was false advertising?

Didn't realize that downloading from iTunes to my iPod was 'video streaming.' Verizon cancelled my broadband access today. Amazingly, they didn't call me on my cell or email me with a warning.

I used 2600000+ Kilobytes in June
I used 5250000+ Kilobytes in July.

Again, buyer beware. Take the contract home BEFORE signing and read it first. Verizon sucks. They are also telling me they are NOT charging me a early cancellation fee. We'll see. I plan on cancelling my account when my contract is up and going back to ATT/cingular. www.verizonsucksbigtime.blogspot.com.
Haxx Maximus
join:2006-10-14
Annandale, VA

Haxx Maximus

Member

Verizon cancelled my service and almost got me fired

The limit isn't 10G/month, it's 5G/month. See PBS investogator robert X cringely's article:
»www.pbs.org/cringely/pul ··· 928.html

If you go over that amount, they terminate your
service. And when you call tech support to find out
why you can't connect, they immediately transfer you
to their rude security/fraud operation. Among other
things, they said "you were terminated because you
were caught abusing and damaging our network".

I was assured by one sympathetic verizon employee I found that there is no analysis of URLs, protocols or port
addresses. It's strictly a bandwidth cap, and that
the "unacceptable use" cover-story is just a facility
to implement the cap.

Note that because Verizon wants to sell this as
"unlimited" and change the secret limit whenever it
wants, they can’t actually admit that there IS a fixed
limit. Thus, their terms of service only prohibit
certain USE of the system. This implies that they
MUST threat you like a criminal in order to be
consistent with the contract.

So when I suddenly couldn't do my job, my boss called
Verizon to see what this was all about. He bought
their line that they caught me using the service for
"prohibited video" and massive downloads.

What he DIDN'T get, and wouldn't listen to, is that
this was an inference. All Verizon really did was
group me as one of the top X percent of users of the
system.

What to Verizon was a cynical excuse to cherrypick out
just the low-cost users became, to him, a accusation
of guilt by professional computer forensic detectives.
He thinks that I, specificaly, had been
"investigated" by verizon for downloading illegal
content.

Adding his own assumptions, he was red in the face
when he came into my ofice and accused me, in front of
someone else, of using a company laptop to download
pornography and getting the company in trouble with
the ISP.

I will probably be diciplined for this, and it's
verizon's fault. All I actually did was help my
customers, which sometimes involved downloading their
database files via my "unlimited" internet access.

=========

Now, I do understand the phenomenon called ‘tragedy of
the commons”; I know that finite resources must be
allocated. I would be happy to buy service in
gigabyte blocks. Nor would I even object to being
billed at a usurious rate for usage over a
prespecified threshold.

My objections are:

1) In their advertising, “unlimited” is the big
selling point. Nowhere do they reveal the daily usage
quota or a limit of any kind. in fact, and I did this
earlier, if you call their sales people, they flatly
deny it. Call them yourself, and don't let on that
your're tech-savvy.

2) Even the fine print near the bottom of the contract
gives no mention of a bandwidth limit. It only
prohibits certain unsavory activities like music
sharing. The official explanation their goon squad
gives is that "because you use so much bandwidth, we
know you were using the service for a prohibited
activity" -- unquote.

3) They provide no way to tell how much you've used
this month. (The dialer software should display this
when it connects and tell if you’re over-budget).

4) They won't tell you what the limit is (or
even acknowledge it exists) unless you really, really
get angry about it and refuse to hang up unless they
confess. Presumably that's so they can lower the
cutoff when more customers sign up.

5) Because Verizon pretends that the service is
unlimited as a marketing scam, there can be no option
to pay for extra bandwidth. If their "business
decision" to cut your throat leaves your clients
screaming at you, too bad. It’s what you get for
running a kiddie-porn web server, and you probably
deserve worse.

6) If the intent is to cut off non-business use, 166M
per day is WAY too low. That's only about 20 minutes
of continuous data transfer -- way down in the realm
of legitimate business use.

Because of all this, I ran a bandwidth tracker on my
PC and found that ordinary usage, if you use the
internet all day, is about 90M. See for yourself,
it's free:
»codebox.no-ip.net/contro ··· bitmeter

File sharing could easily be detected at a gigabyte
per day threshold, and that's only two hours'
transmission time. Even then, the service wouldn't be
unlimited, it would be a 1G/day service.

7) Except for a single easy-to-miss letter, there is
no warning at all. No phone call or on-screen
messages. You find out when you call tech support
because you can’t connect.

8) No apology or expression of regret is ever given.
Their attitude is: “you’re being fined for abusing and
damaging our network. Now hang up, or we’ll call the
police”.