peerimpact
join:2005-11-07
Londonderry, VT
| Slyck has a better article on this
Slyck P2P News has a good overwiew of what Bittorent and Cachelogic are up to with the VelociX network and be reminded that Cachelogic are working with many p2p companies that are providing "authorised" p2p content.
»www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1259 |
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
 ·Comcast
| cache at risk of being sued?
unless an ISP has an agreement that the (legal) content can be cached (sounds like a copy to me), I would imagine they would be at risk of being sued by the content owner/industry.
I would also imagine that before that agreement is made, the owner/industry would demand payment for caching that copy. |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| Utilization
According to the story, ISPs are claiming anywhere from 33% to 70% of their traffic is BitTorrent (BT). What's the utilization if BT is completely removed? In other words, is BT starving other traffic or are the ISPs trying to delay bandwidth upgrades by reducing the BT service level? What percent of customers use BT? If BT was eliminated by an ISP, would those customers leave?
I guess I'm of the opinion that ISPs should not be in the business of trying to determine whether or not BT traffic is or is not legitimate. Of course it's not hard to see that I'm in favor of net neutrality. I believe Google, MSN, Yahoo and AOL pay plenty for their pipes and should not be charged premiums because backbone providers must invest to handle ever increasing traffic demands.
Consider it this way --- as a home owner I have to plan to spend a portion of my income on periodic maintenance to ensure that my house does fall into disrepair. Imagine if I neglected it for 10 years -- instead spending the maintenance money on lavish vacations. Suddenly the roof starts leaking and I have no money to repair it. I now try to demand more money from my employer to make the repairs. This only works if I have a monopoly on the services I provide to my employer or I and other employees collude to pressure the employer to meet our demands. |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
 ·CenturyLink
| said by rradina  :In other words, is BT starving other traffic or are the ISPs trying to delay bandwidth upgrades by reducing the BT service level? What percent of customers use BT? If BT was eliminated by an ISP, would those customers leave? This is EXACTLY the problem...BT and similar programs will "suck down" the whole pipe if they are left unthrottled and unshaped. Even ONE customer can seriously disrupt a network...
The day Bram coded the ability to open 10,000 simultaneous connections (or more), was the day he put the "noose around his neck".
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A is A |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| ISP's will NOT cache pirated content
One obvious problem is that ISPs certainly won't be caching pirated content, which makes up the majority of Bit Torrent traffic. To control this traffic, they'll almost certainly continue to lean on traffic shaping - which leaves Cohen and company in a considerable quandary. And that is THE reason why bittorrent is going nowhere soon as a legitimate tool of ISPs. If Cohen wants to sell to ISPs, he better include a mechanism in his tool set to block all pirated content or he can forget going legit.
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Join Red Room Forum
BLOG tkjunkmail.blogspot.com
My Web Page |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| reply to John Galt
Re: Utilization
said by John Galt :said by rradina :In other words, is BT starving other traffic or are the ISPs trying to delay bandwidth upgrades by reducing the BT service level? What percent of customers use BT? If BT was eliminated by an ISP, would those customers leave? This is EXACTLY the problem...BT and similar programs will "suck down" the whole pipe if they are left unthrottled and unshaped. Even ONE customer can seriously disrupt a network... The day Bram coded the ability to open 10,000 simultaneous connections (or more), was the day he put the "noose around his neck". How can one customer with a 5/10/15Mbps pipe wipe out an ISP's infrastructure? Granted, 10,000 connections per user could quickly get very stressful if the ISP has equipment in the middle that needs to track state but one user shouldn't be able to strain bandwidth any more than the same user with several simultaneous FTP or HTTP downloads. |
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patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| reply to nasadude
Re: cache at risk of being sued?
said by nasadude :unless an ISP has an agreement that the (legal) content can be cached (sounds like a copy to me), I would imagine they would be at risk of being sued by the content owner/industry. I would also imagine that before that agreement is made, the owner/industry would demand payment for caching that copy. No, BT caching wouldnt get takedown'ed, »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Cop···ovisions
BT caching is automatic, and based on load or w/e, then the ISP isnt liable, its the users that trigger the caching, and if a ISP doesnt cache, the users will still receive it.
P2P throttling will never work until the internet becomes a walled garden and thats not any time soon. Caching is the only thing ISP can do to not pay for high transit costs. |
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John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
·CenturyLink
| reply to rradina
Re: Utilization
said by rradina :Granted, 10,000 connections per user could quickly get very stressful if the ISP has equipment in the middle that needs to track state... I think you answered your own question...
A network is much more than "just" bandwidth.
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A is A |
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backness
join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2
| that is the sillyiest argument i have ever heard... blame the protocol?
why don't we blame html or some other tcp/ip for ruining the network?
Bittorrent is not the problem! People like to share content, or in other words they are looking online for services that are not provided by typical industries. As long as people like you take your outdated one way data flow concepts and apply them to everyone else, you are missing the whole information age!
The business model you are preaching is outdated just like haveing your newspaper sent to your house, or like traditional analogue TV signals! People of the future demande interactivity, which has a prerequisite for 2 way data flow! |
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Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | reply to rradina
With FUD. If you convince people it can/can't be done, then everyone will think that's the truth.
One user can not "suck down the whole pipe", unless that pipe is of the crack variety... which is obviously being used here.. |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC | reply to backness
I demand you click the spell check button!  |
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Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium
join:2001-11-29
Erie, PA
| reply to rradina
said by rradina :How can one customer with a 5/10/15Mbps pipe wipe out an ISP's infrastructure? Because it's not just one customer.
ISP's sell a standard residential package under the assumption that you aren't going to be using all your available bandwidth all the time. Bittorrent breaks that assumption because it does just that. So either the ISP's find ways to mitigate the bandwidth gobbling effects of BT, or they have to make connections more like a leased line.
Have you checked the price of a T1 lately?
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gau gau |
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backness
join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2 | reply to Matt
i was in a hurry  |
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AnotherPoster
@67.69.x.x
| RE
Seems to me that caching BitTorrent data at the ISP level is no more different than newsgroups with retention, which is actually more efficient than the BT protocol. Well, Rogers [Canadian ISP] has already shown their interest there and probably a few other ISPs too, so what’s the point? Not that I don’t blame the guy for trying, but he’s fighting an uphill battle. BitTorrent has already earned the synonym for Piracy. |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
·North State Commun..
| reply to backness
Re: Utilization
said by backness :i was in a hurry I was just teasing you. |
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ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17 | minority bt legit usage
guessing for legit bt will be to host software, video, etc that people want to share but don't have the bandwith to distribute themselves ... |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ | reply to TKJunkMail
Re: ISP's will NOT cache pirated content
ISP's cant even do NNTP decent. how does anyone think they can do this? LOL.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| reply to Combat Chuck
Re: Utilization
That's why I asked the question -- how many use BT? If only 2% use it and they consume 70% of the bandwidth (I'm skeptical about these figures but they aren't mine...that's what the article claims to be the top end...), then there's a disconnect. However, I'm not sure this won't always be the case. If not BT, it would be FTP. If not FTP, it would be UseNet. That's why I asked the second question. If BT was banned, what would be the total network utilization? Would it be 30%, 50% or would it still be 100% because BT is so pervasive that it starves other protocols?
I also thought the Internet 2 proved that QOS doesn't work. They eventually just added more bandwidth and made everyone happy. |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| reply to Combat Chuck
Oh -- I forgot to add one thing. Do ISPs assume a T1 "leased line" customer will use their bandwidth 100% of the time or do they also oversubscribe their backbone to the Internet?
Also -- why would FTTN/FTTH and DOCSIS2 projects provide 15Mbps, 30Mbps or even greater speeds if they didn't intend people to use it? Do they assume these will only be used in "burst" situations? I can't imagine browsing ever needing burst rates this high. If they provide the bandwidth, people will use it. |
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FiL
Premium
join:2005-08-16
Silver Spring, MD
| reply to ftthz
Re: minority bt legit usage
"Users are getting around the traffic shaping by changing ports and employing clients that use encryption, something Bram Cohen argued wasn't the "solution" back in January. This isn't Cohen's preferred solution, clearly, because it ruins the company's financial plans. Cohen, eager to get on the right side of ISPs, has been selling the idea of caching Bit Torrent content to ISPs in order to reduce network strain."
So, in essense, this guy and his goon squad figured out a away to send data over the net without going "through" all the headaches the Napsters and such of the world went through, got bullied into submission by the ISP's throttling all of our torrents, and then they say to the public they were supposed to be supporting "dont try to figure out a way around the throttles; it is what it is...
Moral of the story- Greed conquers all. Let the Torrent team burn just like the MPAA/RIAA goons their trying to find "middle ground" with.
They basically played the public; Get em on your side then backstab em when the money starts flowing. But its more of a poke since their still sucking teet, trying to get that mula. ehhh... |
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