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Comments on news posted 2006-08-22 13:19:45: Editorial: The "American Consumer Institute" yesterday issued a press release proclaiming that the call for net-neutrality regulation was coming from the "largest and most profitable Internet firms. ..

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PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1

Good!

People deserved to be fleeced if they choose to continue ignoring this.
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Mass Transit Sucks!


P Ness
You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
Premium
join:2001-08-29
way way out
Reviews:
·Comcast

Google alone against telecom's?

Funny cause after Google, who even comes close as a "web-centric companies with equal or superior market and financial power." vs the telecom's?

can't count microsoft or intel...none of the big tech companies even make 5% of their $$ on the web....
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yock
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Miamisburg, OH
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1 recommendation

Conflict of interest? Maybe...

So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative. One need not look any further than New York City Rent Control policies of mere decades ago to see the pooch-screwing that is possible when government meddles in the free market.

The notion lately that telecom companies must sign franchise agreements *REQUIRING* them to build out is simply outlandish. We all make trade-offs when we choose to settle in certain parts of the country. If I choose to live in East Jesus, USA, then I should be cognizant of the notion that I may not be able to get high-speed data access.

There's also the opportunity here for small entrepreneurs to capitalize on a moderate risk investment. If the demand truly exists in rural areas, then savvy business persons can do business in those niche markets far more efficiently than Mama Bell and her Timely sibling could ever dream of. Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.
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proefain
Premium
join:2000-05-08
Crofton, MD
reply to PhoenixDown

Re: Good!

said by press release :


* Net Newcomers Google (50.1%), Yahoo (27.1%), and Amazon (25.9%) enjoy monopoly-like returns on invested capital compared to AT&T (8.5%) and Verizon (8.7%).
I wonder where they got their figures from and why Comcast is not listed. Also Verizon is still making money even with them spending all that $$$ of fiber.


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:44

2 edits
reply to yock

Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe...

quote:
So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative.
It's not the campaigning against regulation that's a problem, it's doing it under the guise of consumer advocacy. Lazy press picks this stuff up as independent and objective research, when it's really political PR.


yock
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Miamisburg, OH
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said by Karl Bode:

quote:
So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative.
It's not the campaigning against regulation that's a problem, it's the pretense that it is being done under the guise of consumer advocacy.
No, you assume that it's being done under some guise. I'll grant you that you're probably right and this guy is likely just a sleazeball, but I'm not ready to assassinate his entire argument simply based on his industry affiliation.
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:44
I don't assasinate the argument. I assasinate the pretense of consumer advocacy. And it's no assumption. I spent half of yesterday digging into the site and Pociask, and can promise you they're as much consumer advocates as you are yodeler.


yock
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2 edits
Oh forget it, I misread that.
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PhoenixDown
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reply to yock
I believe people have attempted to bring services to these areas on thier own but have met with resistance from the dominant telco and cable operators in the area.
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FFH5
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Tavistock NJ
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1 recommendation

reply to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

quote:
So this guy doesn't exactly have a background that lends credibility to his position, but holding against him the fact that he campaigns against government regulation of commerce is far from a negative.
It's not the campaigning against regulation that's a problem, it's doing it under the guise of consumer advocacy. Lazy press picks this stuff up as independent and objective research, when it's really political PR.
A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
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djeremy

join:2004-07-12
San Francisco, CA
reply to yock
Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.
Isn't this exactly what the bells are fighting in court? The do not want to lease their lines.

»www.techweb.com/wire/ebiz/192201 ··· 92201257


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:44

2 edits
reply to FFH5
quote:
A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
Nice try.

However warping reality to fit your financially motivated argument does not actually change reality.


richardpor
Fur it up

join:2003-04-19
Portland, OR

1 edit

1 recommendation

Sinking to a New Low

A new Broadband Reports Low! This is a classic Ad hominem attack.
You are attacking The American Consumer Institute for being a Free Market think tank. The argument is:
American Consumer Institute proclaims that the call for net-neutrality regulation was coming from the largest and most profitable Internet firms. (Out of place quotes removed).

American Consumer Institute is a free market thinks tank.
Therefore, it does not represent consumers. Thus, what American Consumer Institute proclaims is false.

I think it is the height of arrogance to think only left wing leaning consumer activist groups that advocate government regulation is the only way to benefit consumers.

I happen to think such consumer activist groups do not represent my interest as a consumer because government regulation often comes with a high price tag in new taxes and degraded services. The free market serves the consumer well.


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:44

4 edits

2 recommendations

quote:
You are attacking The American Consumer Institute for being a Free Market think tank
Incorrect.

The American Consumer Institute is being attacked for being a free market think tank posing as consumer advocates.
quote:
I think it is the height of arrogance to think only left wing leaning consumer activist groups that advocate government regulation is the only way to benefit consumers.
Nice try, but nobody actually said this.

In fact the very idea that this is a "right versus left" debate is simplistic and divisive. It is more akin to People vs. Profit. That is not a partisan debate.

Everyone, across all ideologies, has a right to publish their PR. Just don't dress it up as consumer advocacy. Free market proselytizing is stock holder and corporate owner advocacy, not consumer advocacy.

By and large it is free-market think tanks resorting to dressing up their ideas as advocacy. Why? Because ideas such as unlimited merger ability, unlimited media consolidation, the elimination of environmental protections, and/or consumer protections do - shockingly - not float with real consumers.

Solution? Warp reality and con consumers into believing ideas that solely work to increase the wealth of the nation's wealthiest, actually benefit them.

How? By dressing up as an independent research firm that sells this repackaged and spun data to consumers, they can get lazy reporters not aware of the new and insidious stink known as astroturf to print PR as FACT.


tsu9

join:2001-08-17
Wheeling, IL
reply to richardpor
Ironically, consumer will has dictated that Google et al. are more popular than the ISPs. What's at stake is the inclination to change "consumer free will" forcibly, which seems to be something you rail hard against.

Weird, no?
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plat2on1

join:2002-08-21
Hopewell Junction, NY

1 recommendation

reply to djeremy

Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe...

said by djeremy:

Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.
Isn't this exactly what the bells are fighting in court? The do not want to lease their lines.

»www.techweb.com/wire/ebiz/192201 ··· 92201257
no..they want to not be forced to lease their lines at BELOW cost

djeremy

join:2004-07-12
San Francisco, CA
you honestly believe that? at&t and verizon have done everything they can to wipe out the competition including merging and acquiring.


yock
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reply to plat2on1
said by plat2on1:

said by djeremy:

Encourage small business to lease lines from the major carriers and resell to rural customers. If rural customers pickup the service, then excellent! If they don't, then the market has spoken.
Isn't this exactly what the bells are fighting in court? The do not want to lease their lines.

»www.techweb.com/wire/ebiz/192201 ··· 92201257
no..they want to not be forced to lease their lines at BELOW cost
Indeed, telecom providers should be allowed to charge a fair price for leased lines. It must be profitable for them to do it, else we're right back where we started.
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disc

join:2005-12-31
Raleigh, NC
reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
[Sarcasm]
And who better to advocate for consumers than businesses, no?

Of course, the real risk is that companies will overdo it and forget about their poor stock holders. What a difficult balance they must strike.
[/Sarcasm]

nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
Reviews:
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reply to FFH5
said by FFH5:

A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
doesn't seem to be working too good for broadband.


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:44
You have to wait for the trickle down effect I guess?

I don't know.

The plan:

Step 1: Give corporations everything they want.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Consumer's win!

Sounds utterly fool proof to me.


guest77

@64.69.x.x
reply to Karl Bode

Re: Sinking to a New Low

I dont know anything about that group American Consumer Institute. Maybe they are great, maybe they are scum. But the automatic assumption that a free market buisness group must NOT be representing what is good for consumers says more about your bias then thiers.


yock
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reply to Karl Bode

Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe...

said by Karl Bode:

You have to wait for the trickle down effect I guess?

I don't know.

The plan:

Step 1: Give corporations everything they want.

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Consumer's win!

Sounds utterly fool proof to me.
You have this notion that de-regulating an industry is in some way "giving" corporations something. In fact, you're simply removing roadblocks to profitability. Sure, they'll do business precisely where they want, at what price they want, and that's it...

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

Corporations aren't purveyors of goodwill, they aren't charitable, and they sure as hell aren't looking out for anyone but themselves. Why should they? It's business.

If consumers would work harder to be better informed, and actually act on the disgust they find in the actions of corporate America, then corporate America would feel the penalties for their actions where it matters: their bottom line.

Uncle Sam has no business dictating where I, you, or Verizon does business.
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nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
said by yock:

You have this notion that de-regulating an industry is in some way "giving" corporations something. In fact, you're simply removing roadblocks to profitability. Sure, they'll do business precisely where they want, at what price they want, and that's it...

Doesn't that make perfect sense?

Corporations aren't purveyors of goodwill, they aren't charitable, and they sure as hell aren't looking out for anyone but themselves. Why should they? It's business.

If consumers would work harder to be better informed, and actually act on the disgust they find in the actions of corporate America, then corporate America would feel the penalties for their actions where it matters: their bottom line.

Uncle Sam has no business dictating where I, you, or Verizon does business.
that's the most incredible thing I've ever seen anybody post on this site. You apparently have no knowledge of the history of the ILECs and legislation that has affected the telecom business.

The incumbent telcos and cablecos were government granted monopolies. The 1996 telecom bill wasn't enforced very well (at all? half-heartedly?) and competition couldn't surmount the obstacles the ILECs put in their way. The telecom industry is back to monopoly/duopoly status. In my case, monopoly status - my only choice for broadband is comcast; no dsl, no fiber.

The current environment of deregulation has allowed the incumbents to once again dictate the price of broadband and the pace of progress. Now ranked 13th? or is it 16th? I forget, but it's not very high. That's what our policies of the last 10yrs have gotten us - from #1 in broadband in the world to 13th (or 16th).


yock
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We've never experienced de-regulated telecom, so I don't know where you're coming from. In fact, you've demonstrated why it is so perilous for government to regulate commerce in this country. Had government-sanctioned monopolies not occurred in telecom then perhaps we would see a more diverse collection of CLECs and a more stable oligopoly of ILECs than what we have now.
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grandpinaple

join:2006-01-03
New York, NY
reply to guest77

Re: Sinking to a New Low

Read what he said earlier he has done his research on this group and clearly knows far more than we do. Whether free market economics is good or bad is irrelevant, he is criticizing the people's intentions not the result of those intentions. Any means to end in your book eh?

bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
join:2001-03-15
hiatus
reply to richardpor
said by richardpor:

A new Broadband Reports Low! This is a classic Ad hominem attack.
You clearly don't know what an ad hominem attack is...

The article doesn't attack the people or organization based on a characteristic, rather the claim that said organization represents "consumers." In other words, the article attacks the statement of said organization that they are "consumer advocates".

Would you like to try again ?
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bmn
? ? ?
Premium,ExMod 2003-06
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reply to FFH5

Re: Conflict of interest? Maybe...

said by FFH5:

A business environment without onerous government regulation is GOOD for the consumer. So, in effect, it is consumer advocacy.
Too bad the concept of "onerous government regulation" can't objectively be drawn in the sand. There is no way to factually establish when such a point is reached.

As for opposing "onerous government regulation" being "consumer advocacy," the problem is that people who typically oppose "onerous government regulation" present ideas and solutions that leave business holding all the power and consumers out in the cold. In other words, screwing one pooch to help another.
--
"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong."
—Dwight Eisenhower


yock
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Consumers are only powerless when they have no choices and no alternatives. Show your "power" by not buying their products, and if necessary just go without a particular good or service.

If you can't live without internet access, then the market is charging what it will bear.
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LegoPower77
Abecedarian
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join:2002-08-03
Midlothian, VA
reply to nasadude
Damn, man. The government needs to do everything.

There are reasons we're supposedly low on broadband progress (whatever that means). The main one being population density. I guess we could have a massive public works project to give the 10 people who live in Montana 100 mbs like they have in Hong Kong, but is that a good use of federal money?

Like was said before, when you choose to live somewhere, you have costs and benefits. I think, since I live in the Washington Metropolitan Area, that Montanans should subsidize my rent. How about that? Is that a wise use of the Treasury.

Also, there are reasons why most of this stuff is invented here. One being because compared to the rest of the world, we have the free-er markets. Even communist Russia had to piggyback on the free market pricing system to tell the commissars what output to produce.
--
"It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."—James Madison
It's right, it's free.