GeneStarwind
join:2001-12-13
Fairfax, VA
3 edits | Expected
"I'm going to kill your wife, but boy will your ass be in trouble when I file suit against you for calling police on me who caused me to break my ankle because I attempted to flee the scene!" I consider this about equally moronic. Too bad the law and economics are rarely in favor of those in the right (in the truest sense of the word). |
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stufried
Premium
join:2003-10-13
 ·Verizon BroadbandA..
| Spamhaus's Solicitor Should be Canned
I think the lawyer who told Spamhaus to ignore the Illinois order should be shot. There are too many pathes open to enforce the order.
If, however, you take the position that the Illinois order isn't worth the paper it is printed on, then who cares if Spamhaus is found in contempt. What are they going to, order the UK government to extradite its business license?
If Spamhaus believes the U.S. Court is without jurisdiction, then it should bring an action in the UK against e360 and get an order that the US order is invalid and then start serving that order all around the place as well. If e360 has a court order and Spamhaus has nothing, it will lose the fight. |
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knightmb
Everybody Lies
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN
 ·AT&T DSL Service
|  So it's still OK if I blacklist them right? Pphh...
I've blacklisted their domain at the firewall level for my companies, so why don't they sue me next? Probably because I still have 20 MB of the "junk" e-mail they send. I don't know anyone at the companies that have signed up, they asked me to block it all, go figure.
But on the flip side, Spamhaus is a service that that those who control the e-mail servers, choose to use. I don't use them, but if I wanted to, that's my business. While I don't have all the details of this court hearing, I still am at a loss of how a case like this can go from start to finish with such a result? I bet Microsoft isn't a big of Firefox or Opera, but I don't see them suing these companies because they both claim to have a better web experience?
So who's next? Spybot Search & Destroy removes a lot of spyware and adware from companies that claim to be innocent. |
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Raptor
Not a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON
 ·Rogers Hi-Speed
·Bell Sympatico
| said by knightmb  :I still am at a loss of how a case like this can go from start to finish with such a result? 360 filed suit against Spamhaus, they laughed, and didn't show up to the court hearing in the US, so default judgement went to 360. Apparently, they're chalking it up as a decisive win.
I say whatever, give them default judgement as that is how the system works, but as for any sort of actual payout, damages or actions, the judge should have some common sense and overrule and say GTFO to e360. Or does the winning side get the exact penalties it was suing for?
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....where's my fiber? |
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rachelsfx
join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL
1 edit | reply to GeneStarwind
Re: Expected
Solicited Bulk Email is an important mechanism for keeping consenting customers informed of products or service news. When Bulk Email is Solicited it is valuable to the recipient and therefore also to the sender. When it's Unsolicited it's purely Spam, an unwanted nuisance to the recipient, and, because it forces the recipient to assume the cost of receiving, storing and dealing with the unwanted advert it is also a theft of the unwilling recipient's time and resources.
The difference between senders of legitimate bulk email and spammers couldn't be clearer, the legitimate bulk email sender has verifiable permission from the recipients before sending, the spammer does not.They help people create "mailing lists" also called SPAM! They are my customers, help me creat a list. Voila! Now I can spam all day long. LOL! |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ | It just might be time...
For some heavy hitters, like M$ and others who use Spamhaus, to file briefs on behalf of them to get the order vacated.
Also, a public letter writing campaign migh be useful. |
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rachelsfx
join:2004-09-27
Pensacola, FL | If the defendant doesn't show up, it is a default judgement no matter how many friend of the court briefs are written. |
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Eric Martin
join:2005-06-19
66308 |  Courts = stupid internet awareness.
What a joke.
Do those idiots know what spamhaus does ?
Just ignore the courts.
If ICann goes along with this bullsh** then they will have neutralized all debate and arguments about US control of domains. |
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PhoenixAZ
Joshua
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Phoenix, AZ
1 edit | How about education
It seems that the courts these days need to be more educated in order to solve any internet related "crime"- How about make that a law that you need to have skills in IT and more in order to judge any internet related "crime"?
I probably sound like a dumb*** with that post, but what I am trying to say is only allow educated judges- educated in the computer fields to judge computer crimes? Make it a law!
We will see how the judge feels if they decide to allow Spamhaus to fall under when he gets his inbox full of v1@gr@ (Yes spam actually uses symbols to override spam filters and such) discounts...same for the idiot who has made SPAM legal.
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»www.myspace.com/iamreallycoolandyouarenot |
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biteman
join:2001-02-02
Grand Rapids, MI | So what are you going to do about it?
Let them know how you feel »www.e360insight.com/contact.php |
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sqinky
Premium
join:2001-01-24
Fernley, NV
| reply to rachelsfx
Re: It just might be time...
It's just like the above post... If I sue someone and they don't show up to the hearing, EVERY trial court in the USA will enter some sort of default judgment in favor of the party that showed up to the hearing. I don't know if the trial court enters a finding of facts or simply enters a default judgment based on the FTA. This would be important in a appeal since the trial court, not an appeals court, is responsible to find the facts. I'm guessing that there is nothing wrong with the outcome of the trial procedurally, so they can't expect to win an appeal of the finding of liability, but I'd be appealing both the liability finding and the damage award amount. |
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rrz103
RichardZ
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Canton, MI
| reply to stufried
Re: Spamhaus's Solicitor Should be Canned
I agree. Although litigation can be expensive, Spamhaus should have at least attempted to get the case dismissed based on jurisdictional or other summary judgment grounds. I'm sure they could have garnered enough support to fund the litigation and/or get volunteers (EFF comes to mind).
On top of that, Spamhaus' inaction inadvertently created a unique method of enforcing judgments in the United States against an international business who use an ICANN based domain name. There's another reason to free ICANN from U.S. control (which I don't necessarily agree with).
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Rich Z - »www.richardz.com |
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rradina
join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
| reply to Eric Martin
Re: Courts = stupid internet awareness.
You hit the nail on the head. If domain control was not within the boundaries of US authority, the court would have no jurisdiction and the plantiff would be forced to bring the matter to an international body. I suppose a U.S. court could then try to order all communication providers to block traffic at international interconnects but what a daunting task that would be... |
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rrz103
RichardZ
Premium
join:2003-09-16
Canton, MI
| reply to PhoenixAZ
Re: How about education
The problem is that the court never even had the opportunity to decide the case on its merits (because Spamhaus never showed up to defend itself). Tech savvy or not, the judge never was able to look at all of the issues. Spamhaus could have set the record straight while establishing good precedent at the same time if it would have appeared. Instead the missing defendant forced the court to enter a default judgment for the plaintiff. However, I do wonder why the judge (if she didn't already) at least decide the merits of personal jurisdiction.
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Rich Z - »www.richardz.com |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN
| Who does e360 advertise for?
And how does one opt-in to a e360 advertising campaign? I can find nothing searching with google.
I would think this is the ultimate question.
If they have no real opt-in methods, they can only be spam.
Plus I wouldn't mind knowing which companies use them so I can avoid them at all costs. |
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AnonymousPerson
@optonline.net | reply to Raptor
Re: So it's still OK if I blacklist them right? Pphh...
No, the judgement does not go by default to the person that appears in court. Rather, he has to argue his case effectively enough to convince the judge that he is correct and then the judgement goes to him. Apparently e360insight did just that. |
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whatajoke
@rr.com
 from:
TKJunkMail
| Spamhaus is a joke
Are any serious administrators actually using Spamhaus out there? They are the equivalent of a kindergarden bully in the blacklist game. Whole netblocks flagged because of one rogue IP even if your company doesn't own the IP flagged. If you've ever been on this end of Spamhaus' "service" you know how impossible and downright rude they are to deal with.
There are better lists to use. |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| reply to biteman
Re: So what are you going to do about it?
Send a protest with a good email address to a spam outfit!?
I don't think so 
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The older I get the more I prefer the company of my dogs over that of man kind. |
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richk_1957
If ..Then..Else
Premium
join:2001-04-11
Minas Tirith
| I'm not a fan of spammers
And Spamhaus does provide a legiminate service. But they're getting to big for their britches. Once you get on their lists, no matter how, it's almost impossible to get off. There was a thread about this last year, and in the thread someone listed a couple of small businesses that went belly-up because they happened to be in a range that Spamhaus listed as spammers. I know of one case where someone threatened to sue Spamhaus, and were told basically 'go ahead, we aren't in your country and are not subject to your laws'
And what they're saying is a veiled threat.
I don't like the way they're operating or they're attitude. |
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Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO | As with everything else in the world.... sometimes a few good have to be sacrificed for the many.
We all may not like that and may have even a harder time when it hits close to home, but that is a fact of life and it is not going to go away. |
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