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Comments on news posted 2006-12-01 14:38:39: Late last month, a house exploded near downtown Huntington in northeastern Indiana, setting fire to nearby houses and killing two people. ..
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
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Tulsa, OK
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| Hmm I'm thinking.... Even tho the article doesn't mention it, Notice the picture? These were traditional older style homes like they have back east. I'm betting the house had a BASEMENT. If so, What probably happened is the leaking gas (gas is heavier then air) started filling the basement from the time the line was damaged until it reached a saturation point and an ignition source (thinking of typical basements this could of been anything from a furnace, to a washer/dryer machine, or any other number of things U find in basements).
This would also explain how one house was totally destroyed and surrounding homes wrecked. A fair amount of gas had to build up to generate that kind of a blast.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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brooklynman4
join:2004-09-07
Brooklyn, NY | Re: Hmm I'm thinking.... Its based on what cities use what codes. Also its against the law to dig unless u have a permit and the plans or markings. | |
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xillusionx
@comcast.net | Re: Hmm I'm thinking.... Now comcast can say they increased everyones bandwidth, one house that will not need internet. Increase the bandwidth and ask for more money.
-illusion | |
| | | | rob2006
join:2006-11-07
Austell, GA | Re: Hmm I'm thinking.... sad | |
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Too Many Beans
 from:
91439306 
| This brings up an interesting point. If the gas in question were natural gas, that is lighter than air and also has a very distinctive odor to it (deliberately added by the gas company to make leaks noticeable). You almost never hear of this kind of explosion in a home with natural gas, because the gas rises and disperses out through the attic or wherever before it becomes concentrated enough to explode.
However, there is another kind of gas that is frequently used in rural areas, namely propane, the same stuff used in portable gas grills. Propane is heavier than air, usually has no odor, and is much more dangerous in certain situations. In a home with a basement, it will collect near the floor until it reaches the level of any ignition source (such as a pilot light), then you get exactly the effect described here - the house explodes, and the firey debris rains down on the neighbors' homes, potentially catching them on fire. I would personally never use propane to heat a home with a basement, and I wouldn't feel safe living next door to such a home, but that's just me.
Since propane is usually supplied from individual tanks located on the homeowners property - we call them "pigs" out here in the sticks - the line from the pig to the house is usually NOT something that a utility location service will mark for you (since that gas is not supplied by a utility company). The homeowner, or maybe the company that installed the "pig", should know where that line is.
When you live in a rural area, it seems like about once every couple of years you hear where somebody's house went up because propane collected in the basement, whereas you almost never hear that about a home served by natural gas from a utility company. That's what makes me wonder if it was really propane involved in this case. | |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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Tulsa, OK
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| Re: Hmm I'm thinking.... I guess my theory is wrong--- I was thinking Natural gas was heavier then air, but it isn't.
House may not have had a basement, or basement could of had nothing to do with it. It's possible methane just built up in the house till it was ignited, I guess.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| | | latch69
Premium
join:2006-12-07
Halethorpe, MD
| Propane usually has no odor? Since when? Both natural gas and propane are generally odorless. However, both gases have an odor identifier (smells like sulphur) added to them before distribution so that you DO smell something in case of a leak.
Assuming you were right, and it was a propane tank, the homeowner (and I don't care how old they are) would definitely know that if they have a leak to go to the tank and turn the valve off. Just like with a gas grill. It would be highly unlikely that they would wait until some gas supplier tech came on the scene. Also, if you live in an area where that is common, and the cable guy punctured the line, he would in all likelihood be familiar with propane tanks and shut the thing off. Yes, it may be company policy not to interfere with other utilities but I think once you punctured another utilities gas line that shutting it off would be minor in comparison.
Now, more likely this was a natural gas explosion. Even though natural gas is lighter than propane it would still build up in a relatively sealed basement. Also, the line was most likely punctured between the gas main and the meter (which would explain why the gas wasn't shut off by the utility worker... they would have to find the nearest main shutoff) but still very near the house (this would explain gas seeping through the walls). Most likely the cable guy was a complete idiot if he did install a ground rod so near the gas meter.
On a side note. When they installed my cable (Comcast):
1) The tech they sent didn't install a box on the outside of my house... it is one cable with no splice from the pole to my distribution panel on my first floor.
2) He didn't ground it. At all.
3) He attached the line to metal conduit on the outside of my house rather than attaching a strain relief to the building itself. | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Brilliant! The Comcast installer broke two laws -
- Not calling before you dig.
- Not bonding the system to the main grounding electrode of the house.
Better sell your Comcast stock now; after the lawsuit, the homeowner (or his heirs) are going to own part of the company. | |
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CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium
join:2004-11-12
| Re: Brilliant! said by whizkid3 :The Comcast installer broke two laws - - Not calling before you dig. - Not bonding the system to the main grounding electrode of the house. Better sell your Comcast stock now; after the lawsuit, the homeowner (or his heirs) are going to own part of the company. A- he didnt "dig"
B- You cant alsways bond to the electrode. In that case you may install a ground rod. Thats why they exist.
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
1 edit | Re: Brilliant! said by CableTool :B- You cant alsways bond to the electrode. In that case you may install a ground rod. Thats why they exist. No, they don't exceed the NEC. You also posted that you can't always bond to the house's grounding electrode. This is a violation of the electrical code.
I know personnally how frequently cable and telephone installers violate the electric code. Most of them sink a ground rod and walk away, without bonding it to the house's system. Fact is, if you bond to the house's system there is NO need to sink a ground rod. Of course, its a lot quicker.
And no, he DID NOT call the utilities. I didn't have to read it in the story. I know how cable & satellite installers work. Most are unqualified. Based on your statment above about the reason for ground rods existing, I'm wondering about you, cableguy66.
And no, I don't think its funny. I think its a shame that the cable companies can hire unqualified people like this, who put homeowners and themselves in danger, simply because they work cheap and fast. | |
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MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast
| Re: Brilliant! said by whizkid3 :I'm wondering about you, cableguy66. You can wonder all you want about me. I know much more about my job and my industry than you do. You proved that already.
But anybody reading your posts do not have to wonder about you:
No, they don't exceed the NEC. Yes, they do. You've never seen their spec sheet.
I know personnally how frequently cable and telephone installers violate the electric code. No, you don't. You may have seen a handful of installs out of thousands and thousands.
And no, he DID NOT call the utilities. I didn't have to read it in the story. I know how cable & satellite installers work. You know NOTHING. See above.
Fact is, if you bond to the house's system there is NO need to sink a ground rod. Of course, its a lot quicker.
Yeah, it's so much quicker and easier to pound 8 feet of galvanized steel into the ground with a sledge than drill a hole and run a wire 20 feet or less. 
»Additional free 'gift' for new Comcast subscribers:
Yeah. Brilliant. Why waste your obvious impeccable knowledge and sense of humor here? | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| said by CableTool :You cant alsways bond to the electrode. In that case you may install a ground rod. Thats why they exist. So, explain this, expert? | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| A -sinking ground rods requires you to call your statewide "call before you dig" hotline. That is why I stated "calling before you dig". If you knew more than just a little about this, you would understand.
B - You CAN always bond to the grounding electrode system of the house. You MUST always bond to the grounding electrode system of the house. Its part of the National Electric Code, the LAW in all 50 states. Installing a secondary ground rod, without bonding it to the primary, is illegal. Check the NEC sometime.
And I know why ground rods exist. I'm not sure if you do. Are you a Comcast installer? | |
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MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast
| Re: Brilliant! said by whizkid3 : Installing a secondary ground rod, without bonding it to the primary, is illegal. Check the NEC sometime. And how do you know that is not what he was planning to do? Fact is, most who are commenting on this stuff only know about half of what they are talking about, if that much. Nobody knows the whole story. Nothing has been confirmed. And for all you know, the utility locates WERE called and didn't mark where he was pounding the rod. It's pointless for anyone who is not an experienced cable tech to post half truths and act like they know what Comcast's grounding procedures are, which, BTW (as I pointed out earlier) actually EXCEED the NEC.
Furthermore, I have read some really outlandish posts on this story here. Some of which make me ashamed to be a human being. Anyone who makes smart-ass jokes about this is an imbecile. The facts are that someone made a mistake (probably an innocent one) and people were hurt and killed. The families of the victims will never get over this and the installer will probably never sleep right again, even if it wasn't his fault. That's real funny, huh?  | |
| | | | latch69
Premium
join:2006-12-07
Halethorpe, MD
| Re: Brilliant! said by MadMANN :said by whizkid3 : Installing a secondary ground rod, without bonding it to the primary, is illegal. Check the NEC sometime. And how do you know that is not what he was planning to do? Fact is, most who are commenting on this stuff only know about half of what they are talking about, if that much. Nobody knows the whole story. Nothing has been confirmed. And for all you know, the utility locates WERE called and didn't mark where he was pounding the rod. It's pointless for anyone who is not an experienced cable tech to post half truths and act like they know what Comcast's grounding procedures are, which, BTW (as I pointed out earlier) actually EXCEED the NEC. Ok... so you've pointed out that Comcast's grounding procedure's exceed the NEC. Why? Why does a corporations grounding procedures exceed the grounding procedures of the NEC which are the law in the USA? Or, more specifically, why do you actually believe that BS? Others have pointed out why there can be no secondary ground rod that is not tied in to the primary, but you have not actually stated WHY Comcasts grounding procedures supersede the NEC.
Don't bother stating that he may have been planning on connecting the secondary to the primary. It is highly unlikely for two reasons:
1) Why install a second rod that has to connect to the first... just connect to the first and avoid driving a second
2) Yes, its possible he called before digging (driving a groundrod still requires calling)... its possible it wasn't marked... it's highly unlikely.
However, I do agree this is all just speculation. | |
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MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast
| Re: Brilliant! said by latch69 :Ok... so you've pointed out that Comcast's grounding procedure's exceed the NEC. Why? Why does a corporations grounding procedures exceed the grounding procedures of the NEC which are the law in the USA? Or, more specifically, why do you actually believe that BS? Because I have the spec sheets in my truck, which I carry with me and abide by every day. Others have pointed out why there can be no secondary ground rod that is not tied in to the primary, but you have not actually stated WHY Comcasts grounding procedures supersede the NEC. Because there are grounding procedures stated on said sheet that have been put in place by them that are a step further than what the NEC requires.
Don't bother stating that he may have been planning on connecting the secondary to the primary. It is highly unlikely for two reasons:
1) Why install a second rod that has to connect to the first... just connect to the first and avoid driving a second There are circumstances where the drop is located on the opposite side of the house from power, making it more than 20 feet away. It is not ALWAYS possible to move the drop because of inside wiring location.
2) Yes, its possible he called before digging (driving a groundrod still requires calling)... its possible it wasn't marked... it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't say that. There are many times where a utility doesn't respond to the locates within the alotted time. Actually it's more common than you may think. However, I do agree this is all just speculation.
Absolutely. | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Re: Brilliant! said by MadMANN : said by latch69 :Ok... so you've pointed out that Comcast's grounding procedure's exceed the NEC. Why? Why does a corporations grounding procedures exceed the grounding procedures of the NEC which are the law in the USA? Or, more specifically, why do you actually believe that BS? Because I have the spec sheets in my truck, which I carry with me and abide by every day. Others have pointed out why there can be no secondary ground rod that is not tied in to the primary, but you have not actually stated WHY Comcasts grounding procedures supersede the NEC. Because there are grounding procedures stated on said sheet that have been put in place by them that are a step further than what the NEC requires.
Don't bother stating that he may have been planning on connecting the secondary to the primary. It is highly unlikely for two reasons:
1) Why install a second rod that has to connect to the first... just connect to the first and avoid driving a second There are circumstances where the drop is located on the opposite side of the house from power, making it more than 20 feet away. It is not ALWAYS possible to move the drop because of inside wiring location. 2) Yes, its possible he called before digging (driving a groundrod still requires calling)... its possible it wasn't marked... it's highly unlikely. I wouldn't say that. There are many times where a utility doesn't respond to the locates within the alotted time. Actually it's more common than you may think. However, I do agree this is all just speculation.
Absolutely. | |
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MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast
| Re: Brilliant! latch69, you asked two questions, 'why'. Cableguy's two answers? 'Because'. (As in, because Cableguy is a devoted, biased employee of Comcast. He will now respond back that we don't know him, and we don't know what were talking about.) . . .and I answered the questions correctly. If YOU still do not understand, then you DON'T know what you are talking about and further discussion of this subject with you after this post is useless. At least latch69 knows WHO he's posting to. Regardless of which side of the house the drop is on, it still MUST be connected to the house's grounding electrode system. This statement only proves you are not paying attention to anything but what you think you know. His question was:
"1) Why install a second rod that has to connect to the first... just connect to the first and avoid driving a second?" In case my answer was not clear enough for you, let me rephrase: The drop may have been on the opposite side of the house from power, which would have been more than 20 feet away. In such a case, #10 or 12 ground wire will not suffice. Therefore, he may have had no choice but to pound a grounding rod AND connect it to the power ground with #6, as company policy and NEC requires. If you really knew as much about the NEC as you claim to, you would have understood that the first time.
At this point, you are boring me with your repeated attempts to look smarter than what you are and anyone reading your drivel who does know the rules when it pertains to grounding is laughing at you real hard right now. You, on the other hand, can just go about your way thinking that you know more than everybody else about this whole story. You already stated that you KNOW that the guy didn't call anyone for a locate, you KNOW that every cable and phone installer breaks the NEC 100% of the time, and you KNOW that Comcast doesn't exceed the laws. You can also go on making jokes about someone else's tragic loss. Laugh it up. All I know is I'm going to stop beating the know-it-all dead horse. | |
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whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
·Earthlink Cable Mo..
| Re: Brilliant! said by MadMANN :In case my answer was not clear enough for you, let me rephrase: It wasn't; glad you re-phrased. quote:
...Therefore, he may have had no choice but to pound a grounding rod AND connect it to the power ground with #6, as company policy and NEC requires.
Glad you posted that. It is correct. Of course it contradicts your first post on the subject: quote:
B- You cant alsways bond to the electrode.
quote:
If you really knew as much about the NEC as you claim to, you would have understood that the first time.
Ha, Ha, Ha. (You don't know who I am.)
quote:
At this point, you are boring me...
Good, maybe you'll just go away, and stop hijacking my threads with your biased man-love for your fellow schlock-artist and fly-by-night installers, including ones that kill homeowners.
quote:
You already stated that you KNOW that the guy didn't call anyone for a locate, you KNOW that every cable and phone installer breaks the NEC 100% of the time...
I said frequently.
quote:
...and you KNOW that Comcast doesn't exceed the laws.
I never posted this anywhere, at all. Look it up. Perhaps, the reason you slipped this out this little Freudian gem, is because its true?
quote:
You can also go on making jokes about someone else's tragic loss. Laugh it up.
If this appears like a joke to you, I wonder how all your buddies are treating it down at dispatch.
quote:
All I know is I'm going to stop beating the know-it-all dead horse.
No you won't. I doubt you'll let anyone get the last word in, if it contradict's your high & mighty opinion of what a great service to humanity, that Comcast is.
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MadMANN
Premium
join:2005-08-19
·Comcast
| Re: Brilliant! said by whizkid3 : quote:
...and you KNOW that Comcast doesn't exceed the laws.
I never posted this anywhere, at all. Look it up. If you want the last word, you can have it. Let me just clarify one last thing that you obviously didn't notice the last two times I posted it. If you look back at this thread, you were responding to someone other than me and trolling me for things someone else posted. said by whizkid3 :
...Therefore, he may have had no choice but to pound a grounding rod AND connect it to the power ground with #6, as company policy and NEC requires.
Glad you posted that. It is correct. Of course it contradicts your first post on the subject: quote:
B- You cant alsways bond to the electrode.
said by whizkid3 : quote:
...and you KNOW that Comcast doesn't exceed the laws.
I never posted this anywhere, at all. Look it up. Ok, I did:
said by whizkid3 :said by CableTool :B- You cant alsways bond to the electrode. In that case you may install a ground rod. Thats why they exist. No, they don't exceed the NEC. You also posted that you can't always bond to the house's grounding electrode. This is a violation of the electrical code. And this is the exact instance where you misquoted me and confused me with another member. Look at it closely.
said by whizkid3 :If this appears like a joke to you, I wonder how all your buddies are treating it down at dispatch. Very seriously. We don't make jokes about this sort of thing whether it happens internally or at another company. But you do:
»Additional free 'gift' for new Comcast subscribers:
My whole point of responding to this thread was not to shift blame. I don't know the guy or the area. It was to point out that nobody knows exactly what happened and to clear up misinformation about why he may have been doing what he was doing. Instead, it turns into a flame war. If I started it (which I don't think I did) I apologize. But the next time you have a heated discussion about something here, you should get facts straight, remember what YOU say, remember what others say, and remember WHO is saying it. I don't have a problem with agreeing to disagree. | |
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hiya
@rr.com | . World's best underground line locator...
a backhoe | |
| GhostDoggy
join:2005-05-11
Duluth, GA
| They'll just raise everyone's rates again. Considering the first thing Comcast did upon taking over my locak Adelphia franchise was to raise my rates 34%, I'd expect this means nothing to them as they'll just spread the butter all over our toasted butts.  | |
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CableTool
Poorly Representing MYSELF.
Premium
join:2004-11-12
| GOOD INFO! This is a great article to print up and hand out to my guys. We dont pound many ground rods and skill and caution comes with experience. In 12 years Ive pounded maybe two.
We had a tech that actually drilled into a gas meter. He was drilling into a finished basement and thought he had hit cinder block or something. Smelled gas and contacted the fire department.
He felt HORRIBLE becuase it was a colder night and the family wouldnt have heat.
HOWEVER- the jackass owner walled over the gas meter. The fire department had to take his two week old wall down to expose the gas meter. My tech had NO WAY of knowing there was a gas meter in there.
Live and learn. If your lucky enough to live. This shit is o joke.
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| plattypus1
join:2005-04-08
Riverside, CA
·Charter Pipeline
| Why Why was the installer driving a ground rod in the first place? I'm a service tech for Charter, when we do installs we are required to use the existing building ground system, be that a water pipe or electrical ground rod. We usually use an electric meter or other service box. It seems a bit of 10-gage wire would have saved lives in this case. | |
| | PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| Re: Why said by plattypus1 :Why was the installer driving a ground rod in the first place? I'm a service tech for Charter, when we do installs we are required to use the existing building ground system. That's a good point. The NEC requires you to bond to the existing building ground system, not to install a second, separate system. With two systems, a surge (from, say, a nearby lightning strike, or a downed power line) can cause a voltage differential between the two grounds, which will be bad news for any equipment that's hooked up to both grounds.
There's a new requirement in the last couple of editions of the NEC, though: the length of wiring from the cable grounding block to the ground electrode system cannot exceed 25 feet. If it is longer than than, then you must "extend" the building ground electrode system to bring it closer to the cable grounding block. This is done be adding a supplementary grounding electrode (i.e., ground rod), and bonding it to the primary one with a #6 copper wire. | |
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prestonlewis
Premium,MVM
join:2003-04-13
Sacramento, CA
 ·VoiceStick
| comcast installers Comcast installers, from my experience are either:
1. Fantastic, knowledgeable, courteous, and go out of their way to do a good proper job.
2. Idiots. Complete brainless, Star Trekkies, nerds + any more negative adjectives you can think of, who generally leave your house saying everything works fine, they've accomplished the impossible, and then you find nothing works.
If the house had a phone, couldn't they just use that ground like they did at my house or is there something wrong with that? Methinks the installer was #2 | |
| | ScottR622
join:2005-08-20
Wellesley, MA |  And this, kids, is why i dont deal with comcrap
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| vbslim
join:2005-04-17
Champaign, IL
| A word to the wise Most residential service lines (from the street to house meter) are 2" HDP lines. they are signified by a black hdp
pipe with yellow striping. HDP stand for high density plastic.
There are no metal lines running through them.
If a pipe is running through another pipe. the outer pipe is called a casing, the casing is always metal and is installed
if ground degradation might occur. This however isnt a normal
residential installation. a casing of hdp might be used in a slab type installation depending on the code in your area.
Metal is used after the meter and is usually through the side wall of a crawlspace or basement or house side wall of a slab style foundation.
Natural gas, Being lighter than air will follow any means up
including sewer pipes, water pipes, etc and will in most cases find a way into your home.
Not calling for a locate before digging, Probing whatever
is not only just lazy but criminal. Also after getting a locate the digger must hand dig to whatever depth he needs to be if he is within eighteen inches either side of the flagged or painted locate.
Gas aint nothing to mess with... if you get a whiff of it..
(By the way natural gas is its self odorless, What you smell is a chemical called mercaptan that your power company injects into its distribution mains.) if you get a whiff,
dont turn on the light to your basement or crawlspace, dont use the phone, Dont go looking for it. Just get out and call your power company..... | |
|
Cable Guy
@comcast.net
| People Speculating Some of these posts are sick!
I know the Comcast Employee involved and I worked with him. The whole accident is sad with the loss of life injuries. I also can verify we do have grounding rules we follow according to company policy.
There was many faults in the system that day. At least three things had to happen to have anyone get hurt.
No one person is totally to blame.
I also talked to the first responding medical assistant and saw the house in person.
My Prayers go out to all Involved. | |
| | nova95
join:2002-09-10
Waterford, MI | Re: People Speculating glad I read this, some good info.
thanks | |
|
gas guy
@kne.com | What actually happened! You all have actually lost what had happened! The comcast guy drove a ground rod with calling diggers hotline. If he would have done that no one would have got killed or injured. Don't any of you feel sorry for the families that have lost? Grow up! | |
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