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Comments on news posted 2007-02-14 17:05:07: The Korean Herald reports that KT, South Korea's largest ISP, says they're going to invest 1 trillion won ($1.06 billion) to connect every home with FTTH (for scale, Verizon says they're going to spend $23 billion on FiOS). ..
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 RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | What's wrong with this picture? "The South Korean government in 1995 decided to spend $1.5 billion to build a nationwide broadband network that any ISP could offer service on."
Meanwhile...
In the late 90's, our government was obsessed with a dress stain.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.
For "Pompous Windbag", see 419381 | |
| | cbrain
join:2000-05-21
Silver Spring, MD | Re: What's wrong with this picture? You gotta love that Yankee ingenuity. | |
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| dynodbPremium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN | Re: What's wrong with this picture? Yes because those two issues are EXACTLY related; I mean if not for the whole Monicagate thing we'd all have 100M/100M broadband for $30/month right now!!!  | |
| | | RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: What's wrong with this picture? Jeeze, Republican much?
My point is that while we're pissing around with irrelevant nonsense (and that goes for both sides of the aisle) other, smaller countries seem to be able to keep their eye on the ball.
And, richardpor  , you say "could have been better spent" but give nothing to back it up. Google, Yahoo, et. al. are just the survivors of an absurd bit of stock speculation, and neither of them (and some others for that matter) would be worth spit if it weren't for the proliferation of broadband in the US in the 10 years following 1995.
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Toolmaster of La Grange.
For "Pompous Jackass", see 419381 | |
| | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Re: What's wrong with this picture? Uhh, google makes piles of money and seems to double how much they make every year. Some would argue that it is undervalued. Just because a stock has a high dollar value doesn't mean it's "over-valued". Take a look at Berkshire. | |
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| | Reviews:
 ·Optimum Online
 ·Verizon FiOS
| said by dynodb:Yes because those two issues are EXACTLY related; I mean if not for the whole Monicagate thing we'd all have 100M/100M broadband for $30/month right now!!! Going along with that logic.. we'd all have free healthcare, subsidized housing, and be FILTHY RICH, and other stuff I can't even BEGIN to think of (probably cures for loads of diseases) if not for the war in JUST IRAQ ALONE!! | |
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| | | Here what is wrong. The Government of South Korea Spends 1.5 billion for a broadband network, money that could have been better spent. Oh yes have you forgot while South Korea Government spent bucks build their government project, here in the us, Yahoo was founded, Microsoft began to challenge Netscape for browser dominance, Google was not in existence and AOL, CompuServe, and Prodigy were the dominant players. All in part lead to the growth and US dominance of the internet, and billions dollars of new business created, with just dial-up. At this time South Korea was going thru a recession. Perhaps the lesson is we do not need to spend billions on a government broadband project. | |
| | | jdir
join:2001-05-04
Santa Clara, CA | Re: What's wrong with this picture? Meanwhile, the US gov spends around 400 billions plus a year in IRAQ. That's a lot of broadband that can be deployed. | |
| | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | Re: What's wrong with this picture? ... and like it or not, it's the difference between having any level of safety here in the U.S. or not too. I'd rather live and have my 8mb broadband rather than no spend money to protect ourselves and have a large group of the populate wiped out in another attack.
We could have saved the money, but now we don't have the choice.
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"Wipe out the national deficit over night... Tax the stupid!" - about 50 gMail invites available. PM if you'd like one. | |
| | | | | | | | | | peltecs
join:2004-10-18
Los Angeles, CA
1 edit | Re: What's wrong with this picture? What's most upsetting...that the USA is now spending money to give Iraqis broadband! Pretty soon Sadr will be downloading more Pr0n than any of us! Oh! Oh! Oh! | |
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|  TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | said by RadioDoc:"The South Korean government in 1995 decided to spend $1.5 billion to build a nationwide broadband network that any ISP could offer service on." Meanwhile... In the late 90's, our government was obsessed with a dress stain. 1.5 billion wouldn't do shit for us... How big is South Korea? How big is America?
It is amazing how fast he America-bashers show up in these threads.
-Tzale
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-Virtual Pirate- | |
| | | RadioDoc58ef2c0Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11 | Re: What's wrong with this picture? It's not about the $1.5 billion. Hell, it would take 100x that to get the same deployment in the US. The point, should you actually look at the situation, is that while we're pissing away time the rest of the world is doing what is necessary to get the job done.
Nice try to redden the discussion with the 'America-bashers' nonsense, though.
Get with the program.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.
For "Pompous Jackass", see 419381 | |
| | | |  rpeAMP
join:2000-12-02
San Antonio, TX
1 edit | Re: What's wrong with this picture? nm | |
| | | | TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro
1 edit | said by RadioDoc:It's not about the $1.5 billion. Hell, it would take 100x that to get the same deployment in the US. The point, should you actually look at the situation, is that while we're pissing away time the rest of the world is doing what is necessary to get the job done. Nice try to redden the discussion with the 'America-bashers' nonsense, though. Get with the program. We live in a CAPITALISTIC society... We are not socialists.... Broadband is not supposed to be "subsidized" by the Government.
Get this through your frigging heads already. Different types of governments. There are positives and negatives to both. For some, this might be a negative of capitalism, but there are also some things under socialistic governments that fail miserably.
-Tzale
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-Virtual Pirate- | |
| | | | |  MaxoYour tax dollars at work.Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
1 edit | Re: What's wrong with this picture? said by Tzale:We live in a CAPITALISTIC society... We are not socialists.... Broadband is not supposed to be "subsidized" by the Government. Get this through your frigging heads already. Different types of governments. There are positives and negatives to both. For some, this might be a negative of capitalism, but there are also some things under socialistic governments that fail miserably. We actually don't live in a capitalistic society, that's a myth. There are many socialist tools we successfully implement into our society. We subsidize and regulate way too much to be a capitalism.
Edit: Spelling. | |
| | | | | | Ahrenl
join:2004-10-26
North Andover, MA | Re: What's wrong with this picture? Capitalism also isn't the antonym of socialism.
Our communications are WAY more socialists than capitalist as it stands now anyway.
A capitalist network would be owned by no one (free market) where service providers could compete on an even playing field.
Since everyone is not allowed to build their own network (because of the government) because it would obstruct the sun and crush small children and cars in storms. (no matter how wet 10,000 fiber cables going to your house makes you, believe me, it's a bad thing.) The network owners SHOULD be forced to open their networks, and the government should set prices that allow enough cash flow to provide for the needed capex. | |
| | | | | | | TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | Re: What's wrong with this picture? said by Ahrenl:Capitalism also isn't the antonym of socialism. Our communications are WAY more socialists than capitalist as it stands now anyway. A capitalist network would be owned by no one (free market) where service providers could compete on an even playing field. Since everyone is not allowed to build their own network (because of the government) because it would obstruct the sun and crush small children and cars in storms. (no matter how wet 10,000 fiber cables going to your house makes you, believe me, it's a bad thing.) The network owners SHOULD be forced to open their networks, and the government should set prices that allow enough cash flow to provide for the needed capex. True, good post... But overall, I am just sick of people who think we are a socialist country... Yes, some things are, but the majority of America isn't.
-Tzale
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-Virtual Pirate- | |
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| | | Even if the ILECs and cable companies could deliver FTTH to 80% of the consumers for the same per consumer cost that South korea is planning there would always be some sort of pseudo USF fee to deliver it to the farmers that will cost 10-100X the inner-city per consumer cost.
The bigger question is just how many former ILEC employees are now employed by companies like Cisco, Alcatel, etc.? | |
| | irexx
join:2001-04-05
Lutz, FL | America sure is smart. | |
| | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | high tech doesnt get dollars because the people dont want high tech. NASA is constantly getting cuts, you think broadband would ever get past our nearly in the grave congressmen?
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| | | | Re: Canada Dream on....... | |
| | | | | Re: Canada Well, at least Quebec ain't doing too bad...
Adi | |
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| bohn
join:2006-05-30
Scarborough, ON | Docsis 3 will cost about 300 dollars a month here in quebec later this year while it costs koreans 30 dollars a month but here's the kicker we'll be capped at something like 50 gigabytes a month if we're lucky. | |
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 OSIUWhere is my "change"?Premium
join:2003-11-12
00000 | The US needs to get a clue.... and start thinking like the Korean government. Perhaps the FCC should be given a "Broadband 101" class by the Korean government.
Or maybe I should move over there..... | |
| | Admj
join:2001-01-17
Placentia, CA |  Re: The US needs to get a clue....
 | |
| | Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
| Did you read the article? South Korea is small enough that about 1 billion dollars can upgrade the biggest ISP to FTTH. Verizon in the United States, on the other hand, is investing 23 billion in FIOS.
At some point, you need to realize that the United States is much, much bigger country, and a mass deployment of fiber is more expensive (and complicated, since one ISP isn't going to provide access to the entire country).
We'll get there, but it won't be overnight. | |
| | |  NwkEWRSpare Me the Marxist B.S.Premium
join:2002-04-10
Newark, NJ | Re: The US needs to get a clue.... said by wilbywilson:Did you read the article? South Korea is small enough that about 1 billion dollars can upgrade the biggest ISP to FTTH. Verizon in the United States, on the other hand, is investing 23 billion in FIOS. At some point, you need to realize that the United States is much, much bigger country, and a mass deployment of fiber is more expensive (and complicated, since one ISP isn't going to provide access to the entire country). We'll get there, but it won't be overnight. Bravo, excellent post WilbyWilson. Context, is an extremely important concept which is usually ignored by far too many people to their own detriment, knowledge and wisdom, which most of the time are parallel to each other, also determine whether or not context is applied to a given situation and/or issue by all interested parties. Let's not forget that South Korea wouldn't even exist today and would have been just like the communist hellhole to its North, were it not by the United Nations in general and very much so to the U.S.A. and U.K. in particular, but hey, that requires a little knowledge of history and a little bit of context.
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BEWARE: “...I want to TAKE those (ExxonMobil) profits...” - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) Feb. 1, 2007 - | |
| | | | | | | |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: The US needs to get a clue.... Rather then focus on the context of the size of Korea vs the USA, or population density, or amount of money it would take to wire one area vs another, maybe we should focus on the context in this way:
In 1995, when the Internet was still just becoming known to people, the South Korean government immediately saw the potential and had the vision to jump in early and in a big way. As a result, their nation and populace are now reaping the rewards of such forward-thinking.
Meanwhile, 12 years later in the USA, with the Internet now playing a large role in business, world economics, and citizens lives, The USA Government STILL can't find the vision or leadership to step out and promote fiber deployment on a national scale.
That really is the context we should be concerned about.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
| | | | | NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
1 edit | Re: The US needs to get a clue.... The Egyptians built pyramids for their Gods Pharaohs. The Koreans pay their Gods for broadband Internet.
I have no desire to work for Pharaoh, or AlGore/John Kerry/Hillary Clinton.
EDIT: Just had to get in my dig at HC!
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: The US needs to get a clue.... said by NormanS:I have no desire to work for Pharaoh, or AlGore/John Kerry/Hillary Clinton. EDIT: Just had to get in my dig at HC! You won't need to work for them. Seems you're already a slave to Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft/Guiliani & Co!
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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| | dynodbPremium,VIP
join:2004-04-21
Minneapolis, MN | And not only is South Korea smaller, but has a population density around 15 times higher than in the US; population density has a huge affect on cost of deployment per subscriber. | |
| | |  DoctorDoomTroll hunterPremium
join:2006-09-19
Becket, MA | quote:
At some point, you need to realize that the United States is much, much bigger country, and a mass deployment of fiber is more expensive (and complicated, since one ISP isn't going to provide access to the entire country).
Just so. South Korea's land area is 37,911.37 square miles, slightly larger than Indiana, with a population of 48,846,823 (July 2006 est.). That's 1,288.45 people per square mile.
The US area is 3,537,438 squares miles with a population of about 301.2 million. That's 85.15 people per square mile. But ...
At least 94.6% of the US, 3,346,416 square miles is rural. Only 20% of the US population lives in rural areas. That's 18 people per square mile, and most of them are in family dwellings.
Providing DSL, cable or FTTH in a place where the population density is 1,288.45 per mi² is economically justifiable. That isn't true where 18 people live in a square mile that most likely has maybe half a dozen discrete dwellings.
Conclusion: comparing Korea to the US in terms of broadband penetration is meaningless. | |
| | | |  NOCManMacChatterPremium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO | Re: The US needs to get a clue.... Only if you choose to include the middle of nowhere.
If you took the land area of all the cities of the US, added the populations you get similar projections. While smaller these area still struggle to provide a connection greater than a few mbps. In terms of cost per MB we pay 300% more for broadband connection in some cases.
Hell Verizon is still arguing how to put FIOS in Apartments.
If AT&T had it's way we'd all would of ended up with 128k ISDN lines everywhere and they'd probably be trying to figure out DSL. When broken up the seperate companies came out with advancements such as DSL and even today Verizon innovates and looks out for the future with their FTTH project. AT&T thinks that FTTN is going to solve their problems.
We need a broadband strategy. FTTH for all urban areas with population density greater than X, and they need to be competitve lines not limited monopolies. Imagine if AT&T, Verizon, Qworst, and all the cable providers were to all be taxed to start and maintain a company that built the network for them to compete on. If they were all forced to agree on one technology that could move us forward I'm betting they'd all choose FTTH vs FTTN.
This whole distance thing is a myth. It's just an excuse to not serve urban areas and not to stall on serving rural areas because they have no real intentions to do that.
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Ubuntu Tips »www.ubuntutips.org | |
| | | | | DoctorDoomTroll hunterPremium
join:2006-09-19
Becket, MA | Re: The US needs to get a clue.... quote:
Only if you choose to include the middle of nowhere.
If you want 100% penetration, then Farmer Brown, in the "middle of nowhere" two miles from the nearest neighbor, must be included. And at the moment, at least, there is no reasonable way to justify the expense of bringing FIOS to his farmhouse, particularly if he doesn't want it.
Speaking as one, the average rural resident has nothing to do on the Web that requires 100 Mbps. In fact, most of the folks who live out here appear to be content with dialup, if they use the Web at all. AFAIK, I have the only satellite Net dish for several miles in either direction on this road, although TV dishes are common. That tells me that broadband is low on the list of my neighbors' priorities.
I'm satisfied with HughesNet's 1 Mbps. There are a few occasions where a faster connection would be nice, but my infrequent desire for one is not sufficient incentive for Verizon, Comcast or any other company to provide it.
Perhaps everyone in Korea wants warp-speed Internet, and the pop density there makes it practical. In the USofA, which consists largely of wide-open spaces, the notion of 100% broadband availability is the stuff of fantasy. As long as the private sector provides broadband, the economics and logistics of it will be the determining factors. Starry-eyed idealism is not on the list of considerations. | |
| | | | | bohn
join:2006-05-30
Scarborough, ON | Could be worst you could live in Canada in which case you'd probably give up on internet altogether. | |
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| | OSIUWhere is my "change"?Premium
join:2003-11-12
00000 Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| Did you read my comment? What is our national broadband strategy? I guess you like the FCC's hands off approach and their definition of broadband.
Bottom line: Without cutting edge technology, we won't be able to innovate at the cutting edge. | |
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| openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | said by OSIU:Or maybe I should move over there..... Start packing  | |
| | NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 | Q1: What is your current U.S. income tax?
Q2: Would you be willing to pay double that for cheap 100Mbps Internet?
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
| | |  davoice
join:2000-08-12
Saxapahaw, NC
·Comporium
| Re: The US needs to get a clue.... said by NormanS:Q1: What is your current U.S. income tax? Q2: Would you be willing to pay double that for cheap 100Mbps Internet? A1: I paid ~$19,000 in Federal tax this year. Another $12,000 in State taxes.
A2: Based on what it could cost to get a DS3 at my house currently, Absolutely! Even with such an absurd tax bill, I'd still come out saving $81,000/year. (A DS3 to my house has been quoted at $6000/mo + $45,000 installation. And that would only be 45mbps instead of 100mbps.)
}Davoice | |
| | | | NormanSPremium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:4 Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
| Re: The US needs to get a clue.... The question wasn't about a DS3, but a standard residential FTTH connection. I don't really think that FIOS, or UVerse are worth $9,500 per year, even; not to mention $38,000 per year.
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Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum | |
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| | Torlough
join:2002-07-17
East Elmhurst, NY | No but I would be willing to shift any and all of my tax funds from the Iran war and the 363 tons of cash we diliverd there this month in cargo planes to a better national broad band infra structure.
"The Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) shipped $12 billion in cash from the Federal Reserve in New York to Baghdad and handed it over to Iraqi ministries with only the sketchiest accounting controls. The cash, all 363 tons of it, was shrink-wrapped into $400,000 bricks and carried on C-130 cargo planes."
I would just assuem have 12 billion go to our infrastructure. | |
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| | | One thing many fail to realize is that S. Korea is about the size of the state of Indiana. Thats a whole lot less area to cover than the entire lower 48 states. | |
| | TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | said by OSIU:and start thinking like the Korean government. Perhaps the FCC should be given a "Broadband 101" class by the Korean government. Or maybe I should move over there..... Move, I won't be missing you.
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-Virtual Pirate- | |
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 pnh102Reptiles Are Cuddly And PrettyPremium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD |  Stranded Costs
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Only SHATNER is Kirk. | |
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See 11 replies to this post | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
rayePremium
join:2000-08-14
Orange, CA Reviews:
·RoadRunner Cable
| But the entire country cannot use Microsoft Vista »www.kanai.net/weblog/archive/200···0h53m55s
»news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6153435.html
An entire country based on web sites with Active X controls?
I am able to get FTTH, as is any other US citizen willing to pay for it. South Korean goernemnt helps to subsidize most if not all the cost. Might be cheap, but if you use anythig other than Windows pre-Vista, you cannot bank on-line or do much of anythig else. | |
| |  Dominokat"Hi"Premium
join:2002-08-06
Boothbay, ME
kudos:2
1 edit | Who need FTTH? or even DSL? Mean while. Back in America, home of the technologically "advanced." Our government is content to feel that 200k is broadband enough.
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Join us. Have fun. And make friends. »New England | |
| | | TzaleProud Libertarian ConservativePremium
join:2004-01-06
NYC Metro | Re: Who need FTTH? or even DSL? said by Dominokat:Mean while. Back in America, home of the technologically "advanced." Our government is content to feel that 200k is broadband enough. note: THAT IS A F'ING BROADBAND DEFINITION...... I'm willing to bet 99% of the people who HAVE broadband in America, get MUCH more bandwidth than 200kbps.
Stop the BS.
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-Virtual Pirate- | |
| | | | bohn
join:2006-05-30
Scarborough, ON | Re: Who need FTTH? or even DSL? That's about the average in Canada but our balls are capped and wrapped around the sides of fire hydrants. | |
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 dslextremePremium,VIP
join:2001-02-23
Canoga Park, CA | No Capacity Concerns or Net Neutrality Issues There They understand that they are pipe providers and need to expand their "tubes".
Instead of complaining and spending millions lobbying, they are building networks. | |
|  kapilThe Kapil
join:2000-04-26
Chicago, IL |  You Fools!
The United States is at a turning point. You cannot compare it to anything else because no nation in the history of nations has ever been at this turning point. There is nothing to compare this to, consequently there is no way to predict the result based on extrapolation of past experiences.
Just a few decades ago, we put a man on the moon. Thing of the gravity of that....we put a human being on the god damn moon...using vacuum tubes!!!!! and analog technology.
How did we put a man on the moon? That was a time when hard work, fairness and social justice, working for a greater cause, national pride, education, science actually meant something.
We have been coasting on the goodwill of the previous generation. Today we have an America where nothing matters more than money and personal selfish interests. No one cares if we stop using foreign oil, as long as we have enough money in the bank to pay for our next tank. No one cares if our kids are failing Math and Science classes...as long as our kid can beg or steal a job. We don't care about universal Health Care as long as our employer gives us insurance.
No one goes to college for engineering. Go to UIC or UofI in Illinois...and native Americans are outnumbered by foreigners in math and science related majors by 10 to 1. And the natives you will find won't be white or black...more likely Indian or Chinese.
Large US corporations still "invent" the bulk of new technology...but where is Microsoft writing its code? Redmond or Bangalore? Where is Intel researching its newest chip? Who has better broadband penetration than the US? Cisco bought Linksys...where was Linksys developing its gear? Name 1 "corporate" website, like your bank, utility company etc....and I'll bet you it was coded overseas.
America has backed itself into a corner. The only weapon we have left is money...and even that is borrowed from foreigners.
Say what you will...but if you're defending where we have ended up as a nation, you need to take the blinders off...and even if we reverse course today, it is virtually guaranteed that our decline will continue unabated. It is already too late. | |
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See 7 replies to this post | |
| | Sad debate here We all complain about the level of partisanship in Congress but it ain't better on DSLreports. There seems to be only two possible reactions. It's either, "f... those communists bastards" or "let's copy them exactly". What about we think as to how this is relevant to us and what we could learn from it? Being flexible and learning from others is not something to be ashamed of.
Obviously, wiring all of the US is impractical, however, based on the numbers provided above, if 80% of 301M Americans live on 5.6% of the country, that's an average density of 1338 persons per square mile. While the numbers are probably off, the point is that for a good chunk of the US population, the density is fairly high and could lend itself to rewiring the communication infrastructure.
As for the government funding debate, I don't think it should be black and white. Nobody is against paying taxes to fund building roads around the country. One can make a reasonable argument that building fiber is infrastructure that benefits all of us, and open up new business opportunities. And regardless of who takes the financial risk, be it Verizon or uncle Sam, we will all pay for the costs of installing that fiber regardless. Or we could even a more moderate approach, and simply give subsidies to Verizon/ATT/Qwest to build the fiber in exchange for them to lease the fiber at a reasonable rate to other ISPs.
I guess that it's easier to hurl epiteths at each other rather than trying to come up with a reasonable pragmatic solution.
That being said, we all know what the real end result will be. We'll have a cozy duopoly between cable and the phone company, and we'll end up paying through the nose for internet access. | |
| | Nuts
join:2006-04-27
Forest, OH | Re: Sad debate here Very well put | |
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 batterupI Can Not Tell A Lie.Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ | Huh? Form what I have read on this board Korea in totally fiber 100/100 for ten cents a month. I'm so confused. | |
| | r3vldPremium
join:2005-05-19
Austell, GA | Re: Huh? wow really. | |
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