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Comments on news posted 2007-03-12 10:09:55: We've frequently discussed Tor, a networking system that bounces all of your traffic through a myriad of encrypted links (dubbed "onion routers"), with each hop in the chain remaining clueless as to the original source of the data. ..


hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
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join:2005-06-29
Florence, SC

hayabusa3303

Premium Member

Good

They do need to get rid of this crap on the net.

One more step in the right path.

rtcy
FACTS only please
Premium Member
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA

1 recommendation

rtcy

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by hayabusa3303:

They do need to get rid of this crap on the net.

One more step in the right path.
move to China I hear all is censored there!!!!!!!!!
hell shut down the net that way, you can stop online activities, of course I'd bet guys that cry the loudest just "borrow" cd's and dvd's don't you

sheep

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Good

So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet?

Just looking for clarification....

technick
Premium Member
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO

technick

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by N3OGH:

So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet?

Just looking for clarification....
I don't support child pornography and I don't support the policing or censorship of Tor either. Tor was not designed to be censored or policed, it was designed to maintain the small bit of anonymity that is hard to find on the Internet today.

What people do with that anonymity, is there business.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

3 recommendations

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Good

So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?

It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography.

I'm not one of these "won't someone think of the children" people that thinks everything should be censored and that Janet Jackson's boob flopping out at the Super Bowl (Can I say Super Bowl without the express written permission of the NFL? ) But we're not talking about a victimless crime here. Were talking about supporting the "anonymity" of people who take pictures children, some as young toddlers, engaged in actual sex acts with full grown adults.

Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it.

I've had to look at some of this stuff in the course of my work. I've seen some of the most disgusting, reprehensible, and criminal things done to kids to produce this shit. It's seared into my mind, and just the thought of it right now makes me physically ill.

There are, IMHO 2 kinds of people in the world. 1: The sickos that are into this stuff, and get off on it, AND 2: Everyone else.

I'm not directing any kind of attack at you personally, but if you had actually seen some of the shit that's out there, I think you might see things differently. I'm probably one of the few people here than can admit they've seen it and not face prosecution, as it was in the course of conducting an arrest and investigation.

Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it...
yabos
join:2003-02-16
London, ON

3 recommendations

yabos

Member

Re: Good

If you can track the origins of the kiddie porn then you can track anything on the network and therefore it's useless for being anonymous. Not that stopping kiddie porn is bad but you really think that it's going to stop people from sharing it by censoring Tor? It's the same with piracy. People will find a way like they always have.

hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
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join:2005-06-29
Florence, SC

1 recommendation

hayabusa3303 to N3OGH

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to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?

It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography.

I'm not one of these "won't someone think of the children" people that thinks everything should be censored and that Janet Jackson's boob flopping out at the Super Bowl (Can I say Super Bowl without the express written permission of the NFL? ) But we're not talking about a victimless crime here. Were talking about supporting the "anonymity" of people who take pictures children, some as young toddlers, engaged in actual sex acts with full grown adults.

Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it.

I've had to look at some of this stuff in the course of my work. I've seen some of the most disgusting, reprehensible, and criminal things done to kids to produce this shit. It's seared into my mind, and just the thought of it right now makes me physically ill.

There are, IMHO 2 kinds of people in the world. 1: The sickos that are into this stuff, and get off on it, AND 2: Everyone else.

I'm not directing any kind of attack at you personally, but if you had actually seen some of the shit that's out there, I think you might see things differently. I'm probably one of the few people here than can admit they've seen it and not face prosecution, as it was in the course of conducting an arrest and investigation.

Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it...
I would like to shake your hand well said.
Nanaki (banned)
aka novaflare. pull punches? Na
join:2002-01-24
Akron, OH

Nanaki (banned)

Member

Re: Good

said by hayabusa3303:
said by N3OGH:

So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?

It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography.

I'm not one of these "won't someone think of the children" people that thinks everything should be censored and that Janet Jackson's boob flopping out at the Super Bowl (Can I say Super Bowl without the express written permission of the NFL? ) But we're not talking about a victimless crime here. Were talking about supporting the "anonymity" of people who take pictures children, some as young toddlers, engaged in actual sex acts with full grown adults.

Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it.

I've had to look at some of this stuff in the course of my work. I've seen some of the most disgusting, reprehensible, and criminal things done to kids to produce this shit. It's seared into my mind, and just the thought of it right now makes me physically ill.

There are, IMHO 2 kinds of people in the world. 1: The sickos that are into this stuff, and get off on it, AND 2: Everyone else.

I'm not directing any kind of attack at you personally, but if you had actually seen some of the shit that's out there, I think you might see things differently. I'm probably one of the few people here than can admit they've seen it and not face prosecution, as it was in the course of conducting an arrest and investigation.

Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it...
I would like to shake your hand well said.
Id like to have had 5 minutes with the perp in the interigation room with my knife on my side. Snip snip snip plop plop plop get the idea

Anonimity on the itnernet is a load of crap any how. Dont think for one secound that tor keeps your isp from seeign where you go it does not. They may not be able to see what your downloading there do to encryption but they can see the http or https url you went to. Tor is no more than a proxy. If you want to see this for your self set up a proxy with encryption right before your modem and then one right before your router (or after) That is not encrypted. Now the proxy after the one right before your modem is your tor stand in. The one after that and before your pc your browesing with is your isps modem or their own proxy. Now visit a few https sites with good strong encryption and valid certs. Now finally check the logs in the proxy just before your pc.

What you will see is the https web site you went to.
This is the same thing your isp can see as they are your first hop after your modem. While you can bypass proxies your isp uses with another proxy you can not bypass their routers. Routers all have logging capabilities these routers will log url requests that are coming and going through them. So regardless of the number of hops tor gives you your isp can still infact see this.
The reason why tor allows you to bypass url etc restrictions your isp imposes is simple. All isps known at this time use proxies to filter url requests. Now tor like any proxy is done via ip so sense it would be impossible to filter out 1000s of ips to block them as a isp has no idea where or what those ips are they do not block on a ip by ip basis. If tor on the other hand used tor.someclient.com instead a isp could block tor with a simple tor.*.* entry.

Thaler
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join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

1 recommendation

Thaler

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by Nanaki:

Id like to have had 5 minutes with the perp in the interigation room with my knife on my side. Snip snip snip plop plop plop get the idea
...and it's reasons like this I'm glad as hell you have nothing to do with the justice system.

rtcy
FACTS only please
Premium Member
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA

rtcy

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by Thaler:

said by Nanaki:

Id like to have had 5 minutes with the perp in the interigation room with my knife on my side. Snip snip snip plop plop plop get the idea
...and it's reasons like this I'm glad as hell you have nothing to do with the justice system.
I was careful to qualify my comments with *proven* with today's DNA technology getting better every day, it's easier to get DNA evidence of a anyone that has been with a child, I also know thre will be times when such is not possible, that's when *reasonable doubt* comes into play.

hope I've cleared my position, and as Gene Hackman said in the movie " yes SIR by all means NUKE those bastards" uhh molesters

Thaler
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Thaler

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by rtcy:

I was careful to qualify my comments with *proven* with today's DNA technology getting better every day, it's easier to get DNA evidence of a anyone that has been with a child, I also know thre will be times when such is not possible, that's when *reasonable doubt* comes into play.
So, again, should a test be conducted incorrectly, or evidence tampered with to give a false positive on a DNA test read, then it should be OK to do whatever with the suspect/inmate then?

That's the thing with technology. Nomatter how good we make, it, there's always a human factor involved with things. Now, if you're willing to sacrifice those few falsely incarcerated as simply a by-product of "streamlining efficiency", then that's (again) an opinion which makes me glad as hell you have nothing to do with the justice system.

Just keep in mind, an "open and shut" case presented in court today could very well be the "reasonable doubt" case of tomorrow.

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
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join:2001-11-29
Verona, PA

2 recommendations

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to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?
No, I don't think anyone is saying that. The problem is you cannot have anonymity and still be able to limit what is shared by the network; it just won't work and defeats the purpose of TOR altogether.

While child pornography is abhorrent you cannot go blaming those with legitimate reasons to use TOR for members who commit crimes using it. If there were a way to track only those sharing child porn without sacrificing the anonymity of everyone else you'd have a point, but the reality is there isn't and there never will be.

Decisions and judgements based on solely on emotions are almost always bad, and that's exactly what you're doing in this case, making a judgement call based on your anger towards those who participate in child porn. What you need to do is take a step back and decide if eliminating everyone's anonymity is ultimately worth it to catch a small group of people, and at what point does trampling everyone else become a bad thing; after all we could nuke New York City and eliminate almost all the child porn industry in New York City at the loss of millions of innocents. I think we can all agree that that would be a bit overkill.
bigjimc
join:2003-04-21
Middleboro, MA

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to N3OGH
I agree....I saw the movie 8MM and I am told by a friend the the DA's office that that was nothing compared with the sick crap that these people are doing.

Look at the FBI Top 10 Fugitives.
»www.fbi.gov/wanted.htm
Richard Gold is the biggest name on the list.

Find em, Arrest em, Prosecute em, put em in jail and let the cruel and unusual punishment begin.

rtcy
FACTS only please
Premium Member
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA

rtcy

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by bigjimc:

Find em, Arrest em, Prosecute em, put em in jail and let the cruel and unusual punishment begin.
If for one minute people had the guts and logic to disregard what was put in their heads when they were kids about(religion), and were just logical about it, they would come to the conclusion that killers and rapist should be shot dead the next day after proven prosecution. we would all be better off, and use those taxes to feeding the poor around the world.

hayabusa3303
Over 200 mph
Premium Member
join:2005-06-29
Florence, SC

hayabusa3303

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by rtcy:

said by bigjimc:

Find em, Arrest em, Prosecute em, put em in jail and let the cruel and unusual punishment begin.
we would all be better off, and use those taxes to feeding the poor around the world.
That would make the governments job TOO easy then.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler to rtcy

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to rtcy
said by rtcy:

If for one minute people had the guts and logic to disregard what was put in their heads when they were kids about(religion), and were just logical about it, they would come to the conclusion that killers and rapist should be shot dead the next day after proven prosecution. we would all be better off, and use those taxes to feeding the poor around the world.
...and when evidence later comes and exonerates them, do we apologize to the body?
bi0tech
join:2003-06-19
Cockeysville, MD

1 recommendation

bi0tech to N3OGH

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to N3OGH
"Sorry fella, no way I can justify that. No rationale you can throw at me, no high minded notion of what someones "privacy" is worth can justify it."

Yeah why not intertwine two completely different issues and use one as a ridiculous rationale to impair the other. Makes sense right, we don't want those [insert random inflammatory category here] to be free from prosecution. Are you saying you support those [insert random inflammatory category here]? How can you justify keeping a free and open internet while people like [insert random inflammatory category] are running around on the net?

Point being that entire argument has more flaws than on target points. How about we think about reality and how things really come into play.

Look at the case in florida where theres a good chance a couple of young people getting a little frisky are gonna get their lives messed up for this exact line of thinking: »news.zdnet.com/2100-9588 ··· 857.html

Has anyone not seen Bush's wonderful campaign against terror? Or the FBI warrantless tapping of anything under the sun, in pursuit of phantom terrorist or worse? Replace terrorist with pedophile/drug dealer/anything else that raises your righteous indignation and we lose another freedom.

How do you deal with jurisdictional problems? Not every country uniformly enforces the same laws, I would be willing to wager heavily that not every country enforces the same age distinction between child and adult.

Fear does not justify impairing other rights. Damn people learn from the constitution for once.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

1 edit

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Good

Dude I'm not talking about stuff like that.

I'm talking about clear cut disgusting acts of sexual exploitation.

MOD'S HEADS UP, I'M FLAGGING MY OWN POST IN CASE IT WILL CAUSE TROUBLE.

I'm cleaning this up as best I can so the posts stays..

The one that sticks in my mind the most is a close up of a man's "junk" engaged in a certain act with the "most intimate" of feminine areas.

The female involved appears to be between the ages of 8 and 10. The picture is titled "Daddy's little girl's first time should be with daddy."

OK, defend that....

Edit. Crap you can't flag your own posts. Someone flag this so a mod looks at it ASAP.

Qumahlin
Never Enough Time
MVM
join:2001-10-05
united state

1 edit

3 recommendations

Qumahlin

MVM

Re: Good

said by N3OGH:

Dude I'm not talking about stuff like that.

I'm talking about clear cut disgusting acts of sexual exploitation.

MOD'S HEADS UP, I'M FLAGGING MY OWN POST IN CASE IT WILL CAUSE TROUBLE.

I'm cleaning this up as best I can so the posts stays..

The one that sticks in my mind the most is a close up of a man's "junk" engaged in a certain act with the "most intimate" of feminine areas.

The female involved appears to be between the ages of 8 and 10. The picture is titled "Daddy's little girl's first time should be with daddy."

OK, defend that....

Edit. Crap you can't flag your own posts. Someone flag this so a mod looks at it ASAP.

Your an idiot. Not a single person in this thread is trying to defend it. Your missing the whole point. The point is that by exposing the data sources, your taking a network whose SOLE PURPOSE IS ANONYMITY and taking the anonymity out of it! Tor doing this will just mean less legitimate security conscious people using tor. Noone is going to use a ANONYMOUS network who now says "Well...some things you shouldn't be anonymous for" How long is it before they decide just what else they deem is bad and want to expost

I mean hell you can abuse a child in your bedroom, why don't we remove your curtains?

I can take a sexually explicit photo of a child with a camera...so lets just install chips in all the cameras that recognize naked children and automatically blur them out...better yet, lets just get rid of cameras all together!

Not to mention this will do nothing to stop child pornography. Fetishes no matter how outright disgusting they are always have followers and those people will always find a way to meet, share, etc, etc.

But, once again, if you think ANYONE in this thread is defending child pornongraphy then you are incapable of reading

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Good

Yeah I'm an idiot, the personal attacks go a long way..

I'm all for the anonymity of whistle blowers and journalists...

If a private concern wants to regulate themselves I'm all for it. If the users don't like it, they can find another service. It's not like the government is stepping in and mandating they do ANYTHING.

I guess my idiot self should go back to licking boogers off the windows of the short bus.

What a jackass.....
NDPTAL85
join:2002-01-23
Boston, MA

1 recommendation

NDPTAL85

Member

Re: Good

I have two points to make to you.

1. You are getting way too emotional in your crusade against the kp pervs.

2. A system based on anonymity is pointless if it doesn't make EVERYONE anonymous. If one party can be tracked, then all parties can be tracked. Arguments against kp don't change that. If you can track down the kp pervs then the same methods/programs/devices can be used to track down political dissidents, file traders, and those people who like Joanie and Chachi. »www.sitcomsonline.com/jo ··· chi.html

jap
Premium Member
join:2003-08-10
038xx

jap

Premium Member

Re: Good

said by NDPTAL85:

You are getting way too emotional in your crusade against the kp pervs.
You nailed it. Policy making is totally ineffective, expensive, and crippling when emotional, un-equivocated thinking underlies it. Unfortunately, our media-saturated campaign process shuns the wonks we need and elects/funds sound & image bites engineered to exploit emotions.

jays2345
join:2006-05-16
va.

jays2345 to Qumahlin

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AMEN!!!!!!

Hel
Goddess Of My Own Little Universe
Premium Member
join:2002-04-11
Washington, DC

Hel to N3OGH

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to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?
I think you're missing the point being made, and I suspect you're missing it on purpose to be argumentative. But just in case you're genuinely not following...
No one is supporting child porn. What IS being said is that taking one step to block child porn, makes it that much easier and more likely for another step to be taken, to block whatever someone else finds objectionable. Fundie Xian and don't want people reading things critical of xians? Same tech used to block child porn can be used to block that. Your favored political candidate got some skeletons in the closet? Same tech used to block child porn can be used to block the websites exposing those secrets. And on and on and on, for every single thing anyone on the planet finds objectionable.

Thaler
Premium Member
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA

Thaler to N3OGH

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to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

Sorry, but when it comes to kid touchers, I've got ZERO sympathy. I just can't find it...
A scorched-earth policy regarding "OMG, think of the children!"...whatever. While we're in the ballpark of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, why not just take all the kids...and chuck 'em into a woodchipper. Nobody's gonna touch that again, I guarantee.

Sound stupid? Yeah. Because you're bastardizing anything and everything that could be used in the name of child photography and exploitation. Hell, we best be banning computers altogether since pervs can save stuff to it!
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to N3OGH

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to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So, if people download photographs that children had to be exploited sexually to produce, you're saying you're OK with that?

It's one thing to download a movie or a song with with your "anonymity". It's another thing to support the sexual exploitation of children by using your "anonymity" to download pictures of child pornography.
Knowledge is knowledge. Its just a stream of letters. If I wrote a book about raping and murdering kids, did I rape and murder a kid? No. All information is good, regardless of content, and it has every right to be duplicated as any other content. Its upto the receiver to decide if they want to read/view/believe in it. If you have problems with how its made, go do something about WHEN its made. How do you know someone didnt create it in Photoshop?

Your not a reader of it, you have no rights to block people from reading it. Its the readers right to read it. Begin on kiddie porn, and it turns into "national loyalty". Its a slippery slope of ice. What if someone said Christianity is wrong(Im guessing your religion, but feel free to put your own in), would you want anonymity be avaible?

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium Member
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO

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to N3OGH
It doesn't make sense to censor a "free", anonymous network.

Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
MVM
join:2003-02-18
San Jose, CA

Nerdtalker

MVM

Re: Good

said by tiger72:

It doesn't make sense to censor a "free", anonymous network.
No, but to these people (and a lot of others), it obviously does.

By this same logic, we should actively sniff the entire internet for traffic that matches signatures/some Bayesian rules for child pornography, and no-questions-asked immediately lay the banhammer down on them. It's just ridiculous.

cdru
Go Colts
MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN

cdru

MVM

Re: Good

said by Nerdtalker:

By this same logic, we should actively sniff the entire internet for traffic that matches signatures/some Bayesian rules for child pornography, and no-questions-asked immediately lay the banhammer down on them. It's just ridiculous.
I'd like to do this now. Can you suggest what bit patterns I might be able to filter out? If I add "00", "01", "10", and "11" do you think that will be enough to catch it?

Seriously though, how exactly do you recognize and filter out a particular picture, video, etc of something illegal from something that isn't?

Nerdtalker
Working Hard, Or Hardly Working?
MVM
join:2003-02-18
San Jose, CA

Nerdtalker

MVM

Re: Good

said by cdru:

Seriously though, how exactly do you recognize and filter out a particular picture, video, etc of something illegal from something that isn't?
You don't/cant, which is why the whole notion is equally as absurd when it comes to expecting that they'll **magically** do the same with the Tor network. That was my point, although I confused even myself in the process of formulating it.

rtcy
FACTS only please
Premium Member
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA

3 edits

1 recommendation

rtcy to N3OGH

Premium Member

to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet?

Just looking for clarification....
let me clarify

BBR seems full of people with NO reading comprehension, it's a statement on our lack of education in this country.

where do you see me defending any kind of porn?

I simply defend our rights to freedom of speech. you and I will NEVER stop dishonest/ SOULless people by censorship.

I also *understand* how TOR works, it was designed so that anyone anywhere in the world can send a email anonymously without fear of retaliation. the whole way the servers work is to pass the information *without* examination of the contents. about all you could do would be to limit the size of the individual content to say 50 bytes, that would put a hurt in *most* photos being sent, but even that can be circumbented.

so what would do you do?

would you also kill ALL online forums like this one, since those bastards also approach kids on them?

would you close ALL schools down, since lots of kids can be found in one easy place?

how about WE change the laws to a quick EXECUTION of the bastards once PROVEN to be child abusers in a open place, I AM ALL for that, but leave the freedoms that the rest of us want alone. We need a backbone (our society) to actually execute(laws in the books) ALL rapist and murderers, like it or not REAL fear works, and if these people KNEW what was coming it would lessen the abuse but not eliminate it.

do a online search for where you live and see how many child molesters live nearby to you, and many right near schools!
it will scare the S*iT out of you, I have a 5 year old granddaughter and a 7 year old son, and I HAVE to drive them to school because so many live nearby, my daughter now 26 was "asked" by one of these bastards into his car, I had her trained well and she screamed and ran, later the police told me that they had had the same description of the car given to them before by other parents, but the guy was not caught (to my knowledge)(and believe me I patrolled around for him) but after that all my kids went back in the car no matter how much they asked to go with their friends.

I believe in my constitution, and will always defend it, before anything else, I also believe in the law and not in mob rule. lets enforce the laws, lets follow through and kill those that need killing. if God is doing nothing about the millions dying in Africa, he won't mind a couple of thousands more that are in jails for killing innocent people.

did I clarify that for you

Thaler
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Los Angeles, CA

Thaler to N3OGH

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to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet?

Just looking for clarification....
No...Tor was developed to be a way around censorship and retain anonymity. "Hacking" a means of censorship into Tor (good natured or no) simply defeats the purpose of using the program.

Hell, I'm sure child porn has been widely peddled by the unknowing postal workers of America. Should their jobs be axed simply because a select few were unknowingly contributing to a degenerate practice?

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL

Member

Re: Good

said by Thaler:

Hell, I'm sure child porn has been widely peddled by the unknowing postal workers of America. Should their jobs be axed simply because a select few were unknowingly contributing to a degenerate practice?
In addition to those Postal Workers who just unknowingly deliver the Porn (which was placed into the system for them to deliver), you have one of the largest Porn Rings in the world by the name of the US Postal Service Postal Inspectors Division and the US Printing Office. One of their jobs is to Print [USPO] and Mail [USPS] Porn as part of so called "Sting" Operations. Admittedly, they do not CREATE the original images, only reproduce and recycle those that they own due to prior sting operations. OTOH, they DO distribute it so should their jobs also be axed?

Note that just like with Tor, this is only a small part of the job of the USPS Postal Inspectors and the output of the USPO but if you take the stance of "Tor is being used for this bad activity, no matter how small a part, and thus the Tor must be eliminated" this also applies to the USPS and USPO.

No matter what item you select, you are going to find those who use it for some activity that is illegal but just because it CAN be so used, this does not justify banning the item. This is just as logical as saying "Ban Automobiles" just because they have-been/can-be used as "Get Away Cars" in conjunction to Bank Robberies.

thender2
Glamour Profession
Premium Member
join:2004-05-16
Staten Island, NY

1 recommendation

thender2 to N3OGH

Premium Member

to N3OGH
said by N3OGH:

So let me get this straight. You SUPPORT child pornography on the internet?

Just looking for clarification....
I'm going to take a wild guess.

I think he meant that he doesn't want to see child porn on the web, but that he was afraid the people finding child pornographers may overstep their bounds and begin either

a) Using such methods against smaller "crimes".

b) Start accusing dead people/2 year olds(see: MPAA, RIAA) of downloading child porn.

I'm all for getting child porn off the web, but it's how you're doing it that matters. Even if you take child porn off the internet, that doesn't mean bad things of that type will stop happening, nor does it mean that very same child porn film will stop being distributed. I am for things that get child porn off the internet, but I don't think it's worth using methods where 1 in 10 interrogated are guilty to get one extra flick off the net.
TherapyChick
join:2003-09-19
Fayetteville, NC

TherapyChick to rtcy

Member

to rtcy
The folks that are writing this "Torment" app to figure out other TOR users, well, if they can do it, more power to them.

If they do succeed, then I guess TOR wasn't as private as one thought was it?

Maybe if they get around TOR then TOR will do something to make it more secure?

Who knows.

anony_me
@verizon.net

anony_me

Anon

Re: Good

said by TherapyChick:

The folks that are writing this "Torment" app to figure out other TOR users, well, if they can do it, more power to them.

If they do succeed, then I guess TOR wasn't as private as one thought was it?

Maybe if they get around TOR then TOR will do something to make it more secure?

Who knows.
it would be a sad day if they kill anonymity on the internet, but I do understand how this SICK subject can make us all emotional to the point of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" as it were when it comes to privacy, something BUSH washes his ass with daily and then dries his ass with the constitution(sorry for the political and religion bashing).

I had to once use TOR as a whistle blower move, had it not been there (and I was able to trust it) I would never had done it for fear of retaliation( I really hate to go into more detail)as it was I was targeted as a computer savvy geek, but i was able to be cool under fire.

rtcy
FACTS only please
Premium Member
join:1999-10-16
Norwalk, CA

rtcy to TherapyChick

Premium Member

to TherapyChick
said by TherapyChick:

The folks that are writing this "Torment" app to figure out other TOR users, well, if they can do it, more power to them.

If they do succeed, then I guess TOR wasn't as private as one thought was it?

Maybe if they get around TOR then TOR will do something to make it more secure?

Who knows.
I agree with your assesment that TOR should withstand what ever it is that TORMENT does, I have to be candid I have not read up on Torment, but do recall from my one time use of TOR, that it's aquiles heel is the amount of servers you can chain your message through. I ran some test way back then and tried 5 and 10 servers links and it seem impossible to see were a message had originated, by looking at the IP packets or the header, so I can not imagine anything short of a router based tracking system to defeat it.
brianiscool
join:2000-08-16
Tampa, FL

brianiscool

Member

hah

If this guy does not want people to use his connection, he shouldn't be a server. Does not matter they will just make a new encryption for the network.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 recommendation

FFH5

Premium Member

P2P users abuse the net once again

Hardly surprising that P2P applications are screwing up one more network out there. And while child pornographers certainly should be caught(one reason why Tor is a problem), the P2P abusers trying to hide their music thefts will be the thing that ultimately kills Tor off.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••
axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC

axus

Member

server blacklist

Yeah it'd be nice if each server operator could blacklist content they find objectionable. I don't know how Tor works, but I assume they've got some kind of hash for each file out there. Blacklist the hashes you don't want. It would be a neverending battle, but it would help. The downside is the network for good content becomes more visible and easier to trace.

••••
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

jc10098

Member

Stupidity Prevails

Good OLD BUSHISMS AGAIN.... If there are a few bad apples, punish everyone. I "love" the logic that floats around America today. Punish all for a few that abuse. NSA wiretapping... Well hell if a few Americans are bad, WHY NOT LISTEN to them all... I guess this same logic, cops should shoot everyone in a crowd to capture their bad guy. Once again, that same bad guy could have killed those people anyways. Let's just government sanction it now... Give me a break. So a few people are doing bad things. Your point? You want to screw EVERYONE for a few bad apples. I guess we should now:

Have EVERYONE assessed late fees on taxes... if a few people are late.. let's just ASSUME everyone will be.

Charge penalties automatically on your credit card. Once again, a few bad apples, so let's punish everyone.

The list goes on....

GIVE ME A BREAK... If this happens, then TOR is trult WORTHLESS because of a FEW bad apples.

Note... to get around the tracking... DISABLE JAVA.. Java is how the tracking system works.

••••

ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save
join:2005-10-17

ftthz

Member

great job

... to smoke a few bad apples u destory the whole tree.
jc10098
join:2002-04-10

jc10098

Member

About Tor

I do see where TOR claims to be an anonimizer. Also, I'm not condoning the illicit activity. I'm simply asking you to find justification where you kill everyone to get a few bad apples? Please englighten me....

karlmarx
join:2006-09-18
Moscow, ID

karlmarx

Member

Better 100 criminals get free

Than 1 innocent person be convicted. That's what TOR is. It lets the 1 innocent journalist post something safely. Sure, you get child porn and the dregs of society, but that's the price you pay for your freedom. The benefit that the security TOR provides FAR outweighs the cost of the scumbags. Or, as the republicans believe, would you rather everyone get an 'internet licenses', so the government and megacorps can monitor everything you do? There are MANY reasons that anonominity is important, and TOR is just a resource that ensures it.

jays2345
join:2006-05-16
va.

jays2345

Member

Re: Better 100 criminals get free

as bad as me may think we have it now in the next 10 years its going to be exactly like that
Scifience
Premium Member
join:2002-07-07
Washington, DC

2 recommendations

Scifience

Premium Member

What is so hard about this?

Lately in America, at the mere mention of "child pron" and "terrorists," the government and citizens will rally against just about anything. These two things are used as nothing more than excuses for taking away our civil liberties. People will get upset about some invasion of privacy or loss of rights, but all the government needs to do is say that it is for "protecting the children" or "stopping terrorists," and you'll have 90% of the sheeple ready to kiss the feet of the bureaucrats.

I'm certainly not personally endorsing child abuse and kidnapping and the like, but that is by no means a good enough reason to undermine freedom of speech and anonymity. To my way of thinking, there is absolutely *no* reason good enough to do so.

The entire purpose of Tor is to guarantee anonymity for anyone using it. By definition, this includes making terrorists and child pornographers anonymous as well. While we may not find the ideals or values that these groups stand for very nice, it is very hypocritical to be advocating free speech for some groups but not others. Either you have absolute freedom of speech and anonymity, or you don't have either. While blocking kiddie porn may seem to be an admirable goal, blocking any content at all is not. Today, kiddie porn; tomorrow, those who speak out against the government. Any censorship is too much censorship, especially when that censorship is occurring on a network whose entire purpose was to defeat censorship.

•••

ReVeLaTeD
Premium Member
join:2001-11-10
San Diego, CA

ReVeLaTeD

Premium Member

I think...

Tor should be left alone. I honestly believe the internet was designed to be anonymous. It's only because people have given up their civil liberties that we're subject to the type of blatant disregard of privacy that we have now. "We" means the US, of course.

If people are using the Web and other resources to do illegal stuff, I don't think monitoring internet activity is the right action to take, quite frankly. Then again, I think punishing someone because they're "in possession" of child porn is also unduly harsh. Someone could spam email you a child porn pic, which as we know is ALWAYS retrievable even if you delete the email and format the drive, and then you get punished, even though you didn't solicit that picture in any way. It's unfair.

This is my opinion. If the government would focus more on the sickos that are actually physically abusing kids instead of people who happen to receive an image or two via spam, we wouldn't even be having this problem.

And no, regardless of what a stripper tells you, just having a kiddy porn pic on your hard drive does NOT = child molester.

technick
Premium Member
join:2000-12-16
Wheat Ridge, CO

technick

Premium Member

Re: I think...

said by ReVeLaTeD:

This is my opinion. If the government would focus more on the sickos that are actually physically abusing kids instead of people who happen to receive an image or two via spam, we wouldn't even be having this problem.

And no, regardless of what a stripper tells you, just having a kiddy porn pic on your hard drive does NOT = child molester.
I could go on and on about how messed up our government is, though I think this link will give you a pretty good idea.

»news.com.com/Police+blot ··· =newsmap

DevlishHusky
join:2004-06-07
New Milford, NJ

DevlishHusky

Member

...

violating the Bill of Rights = terrorism
censorship = terrorism

if you believe in censorship and sacrificing your freedoms for security you deserve neither and you support terrorism.


Yowzaaah
Ours Go To Eleven
join:2000-12-14
DamnFlat, OH

Yowzaaah

Member

Think of the Children......

There needs to be a corollary to Godwin's law about the interjection of pedophilia into any privacy debate.

La Luna
Fly With The Angels My Beloved Son Chris
Premium Member
join:2001-07-12
New Port Richey, FL

La Luna

Premium Member

ugh...

Love how the lefties, almost every single one, try to defend their perceived "right to free speech" over and above the rights of a child to not be molested with a disclaimer of "....but I don't support child pornography", as if that exonerates them of all responsibility to the victims....as long as it doesn't *inconvenience* them, they can sleep at night with a clear conscience, knowing they made that pitiful statement.

Disgusting.

••••

totamak
And they call me nuts?
join:2000-10-24
Los Angeles, CA

totamak

Member

I say Bullshit!

And just how much "child porn" is actually being 'traded'? I'll bet not much. TOR wasn't designed as a peer to peer file trading system, it was designed as a multi-hop, multi-layer proxy for web browsers - moving large amount of bits is like pushing a watermelon through the eye of the needle, doable but DAMN what a mess and the time needed. TOR is very good at turning a broadband connection into a bad 24k dial-up experience.

Where would new seekers of KP look? You know governments in general are throwing ridiculous amounts of resources, setting up honey-pot sites. The largest trader of KP on the Internet is law enforcement agencies by an overwhelming margin, the digital equivalent of 50 cops dressed as hookers to nail a single john on a Tuesday morning.

KP is a red herring, it's a way to generate arrests, showcase perp walks, and make the news at 11 PM for some press hungry DA's. They dog pile on the "cache" in every way conceivable. Considering that most reporters have freezer compartment temp IQs and as lazy as a swamp country bloodhound, they don't question anything unless it's Gee Whiz Bush or some bald crony of his.

KP hysteria has been elevated by several orders of magnitude as a problem than as a problem it really is. The REAL problem is when the bureaucrats and nanny state nitwits are frightened of tools being in the hands of the 'public' which will keep their communications secret. The powers that be want to regulate, tax, or squash whatever comes through. No matter how trivial, it could be video games or it could be chocolate chip recipes.

The systematic crushing of liberties, be it speech, assembly, privacy, to possess and bear arms, mercantile, travel, to worship without interference nor subsidized, to have consenting relationships of any nature (be it sexual, marital, business, religious, hobbies, art, sports, or communal navel gazing) - all of these taxed, regulated, or outright banned.

We live in a police state right now, make no mistake about it. When one is FORCED by law to give identity without cause, that is to be stopped merely to be identified - you live in a police state. Now think of TOR, a software tool reliant on widely dispersed servers whose aim is to thwart identification regardless of content being transferred - the police state hates that and will use any and all tools it can use.

I'm sorry that people think it's okay for the state to have any and all tools - history has shown that WITHOUT EXCEPTION that any state granted powers that it can abuse, It will abuse it, and It is never satisfied with even that. The state is ever greedy, that is why the Constitution was crafted as it was - restraint of government power. However over time, we handed responsibility over to the state and guess what, keystone Kop SWAT teams that murder a bed ridden old woman over the possibility that a barely visible quantity of illicit drugs were present somewhere, we have a chimp cowboy who is very brave with other people's lives and very generous with our treasure, we have unchecked government backed big business biases so that a given industry is not allowed to fail in the market place, a completely broken border system where we prosecute the members of the only police agency that doesn't have a SWAT team but the only one to face fully automatic rifles pointed at them on a regular basis, we have codified protections of select minorities based on feelings, we have gun bans in major cities which unsurprisingly host the lion's share of murders by gun meanwhile submachine pistol in every home armed Switzerland enjoys a murder rate lower than rural Canada (and most murders are usually foreigners on other foreigners).
robo_mojo
join:2006-01-11
Ada, OK

4 edits

robo_mojo

Member

Re: I say Bullshit!

This is not the government trying to thwart use of TOR. This is about a self-promoting individual trying to make a name for himself by publishing an attack against TOR for the sake of "the children". The attack vectors he uses have especially been well-understood and documented by the TOR community before we even heard of this guy. There REALLY is nothing new or clever going on here, certainly nothing particularly newsworthy. All we have now is a new implementation of an old trick, that all else being equal, should not work.

That is, if the user's system has been properly configured in the first place, the attack does nothing at all.

Beyond that, it is really sad that people will partake in helping such an individual to promote himself. He did not invent this attack, he doesn't deserve any credit for it. His implementation will likely never catch on, in any case. Even if it did, some users will write scripts to detect such bad behavior on the network and identify the offenders, the people launching the attacks (they themselves will be easily identified due to the way their attacks work).

So, move along, nothing to see here. Just FUD.

jays2345
join:2006-05-16
va.

jays2345 to totamak

Member

to totamak
sadly youre right there are alot more cops masquerading as young boys and girls worldwide than there are pedaphiles. I really do think they coax''(SOMEPEOPLE)''to do things they normally wouldnt have.

Dr Slow
@comcast.net

Dr Slow

Anon

RE: I say Bullshit!

To put it in prospective, let's compare Tor to the Fourth Amendment, it protects decent people, but it also protects criminals, we all say man I wish the cops could just break the door down on people that do this or that, but of course we are glad that they can't just come in and search our house at will because we are protected by the Fourth Amendment and sadly so are the criminals and I certainly wouldn't advocate doing away with the Fourth Amendment, most of you wouldn't either I'd venture to guess, but that's exactly what is being proposed against Tor, as already said if you can monitor any traffic, you can monitor all traffic and that defeats the purpose of this system and thus makes it worthless.

It will not take long for communist countries and others to start using these tools to spay on people.

As, for the child porn, it would serve us all better to catch the people that molested them, then there would be no pictures, no movies and nobody watching them, because they wouldn't be there and then the children would be safer.

crazy larry
@pdq.net

crazy larry

Anon

Child Porn

I hate these conversations. Sexual assault of children and child pornography is just this decade’s equivalent to McCarthy’s Communism. It is just one more excuse to limit the freedoms that all people should have. The target is different, it is the Internet. The purpose is the same, to exploit fear for power and money.

The exploitation of the public’s fear of child pornography by news media, the government, special interests and others is just as bad as the porn. Those who use sexual exploitation of children to promote their careers, gain power through influence over public opinion, and to make money from advertising dollars, government funding or any other source are just a guilty of exploitation as the cameraman. This exploitation also involves public fear, just like terrorism. Those who use sexual exploitation of children for personal gain are guilty of kiddy porn and terrorism.

Those same people are creating a system which will eventually promote the sexual assault and creation of pornography by their demand of these acts to perpetuate their purpose. This is an undeniable truth in our society. The war on drugs has produced more drug users. The exploitation of the public fear of gangs has produced an entire sub-culture of gangs and urban crime. It is naïve to think that those employed by our justice system are not aware of this, or simply have poor judgment; unless, their poor judgment is the same as that of child molesters.
Pingachevsky
join:2007-06-16
Mountain View, CA

Pingachevsky

Member

You know, if we really want to get into specifics...

Just so we are all on the same playing field, lets make sure I have things equated properly.
Child Porn = Child abuse, amirite?
Child Abuse = Something committed by "Them", am I still right?
First, we all seem to have the misconception that OTHERS, the great unknown OTHER causes the majority of abuse, sexual or otherwise. It's all US versus THEM. Those sick freaks.
»www.acf.dhhs.gov/program ··· 3_17.htm
Take a look at that table...read across the line for "sexual abuse only" or "multiple maltreatments" (it jumps lines, but we're all intelligent here, I think you can handle it)...you should notice something...it's not the great "OTHER" that makes up most of the perps...it's parents and relatives who are overwhelmingly responsible. If you are a parent, you are statistically more likely to brutally rape your child than a stranger is.
So, when one says "think of the children, kill those people over there to save the children" (or something to that extent) just remember, by eliminating parents the amount of sexual abuse would decrease exponentially as opposed to eliminating the great "OTHER" everyone likes to drag out of the closet to sling their indignation at which would only eliminate the cases that get publicity. So the solution? Kill parents and their extended family!
Now, anyone who has an iota of intellect should note that this plan would not work. At all. That's throwing out a mighty big baby to get rid of a small amount of bathwater. We all know that overwhelmingly parents are good people, required to give a child the nuturing and love they need to grow. It would sure get rid of those bad apples though.
Tor has bad apples, but these are likely the apples that hardly anything is really going to weed out. That little portion of the population that just can't be deterred. They will find a way, bottom line. Much in the way that gun control really doesn't reduce crimes with firearms after a certain point (see, those kinds of criminals just buy illegal weapons we can't trace anyway). We have to accept that for the most part, bad apples will exist, and as such bad things will happen to good people even if we had the best laws in existence (which we don't). Nothing lawmakers or private industry can do in the short term will change this, short of the "Baby, bathwater, etc" stratagems that do not work.
I rest my case.

Jay78
@blackwaterlib.org

Jay78

Anon

Please Read, Think and Stand UP!

What we have here, is a societal problem to *Communicate*
I have been a victim of actual, real and damaging abuse as a child. It has, and still sometimes takes me tremendous energy to overcome my difficulties from that in many ways. Since I have studied it a lot in my life, I think I know what abuse is and what abuse is not. I was beaten, assaulted with weapons and tediously indoctrinated to believe I was worthless trash at a time when I was too young to know I could really fight back. That caused real harm.
Part of my "therapy", as one might call it, is to fight various forms of oppression, and I am good at recognizing it. I believe TOR is presently a slim bright spot in the global technical arena of surveillance, control and what I hope will not become, global OPPRESSION (OK it is here already). I do not believe in censorship, I do believe in free speech and am very sorry that some unscrupulous individuals probably do abuse TOR.
Also, when I was about 6 years of age I was sexually "used" without coercion by an adult family member in ways that today would have but that person in prison. I almost forgot about that seemingly anecdotal incident and memory until I was reminded of it by the current hysteria over that kind of thing. Compared with the other things I experienced, that was not even worth thinking of, I would never hurt that person who did that and have a good relationship with that person today.
I am compelled to believe that life is not as simple as we would like to think;it might be in order here to examine sexuality and sexual orientation/preferences from historical, cultural and medical, psychological perspectives before we justify the destruction many good peoples lives over issues like what pictures they want to posess. I don't know what the best solution is for age of consent or other sexual conduct laws, but what we have now is a mess. What is legal in Canada or many other countries around the world would make you a terrible felon in the US. What is legal and protected in the US would get you executed in many muslem countries (two men in their 20's were executed in Iran early this year when their homosexuality was found out). People don't suddenly become transformed between being upstanding citizens and horrible criminals by crossing geo-political boundaries and sexual abuse is more a factor involving consent than it is about age!