dslreports logo
site
spacer

spacer
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


view:
topics flat nest 
Comments on news posted 2007-05-02 09:10:58: Yesterday the Supreme Court ruled on a number of patent cases -- making it more difficult to get a patent and easier to challenge existing ones. ..

rodrod5

join:2001-02-28
Houston, TX

Vonage needs to realize

that the company that "makes it big" in any technology always loses its ass while others move past them

I still don't get the whole VOIP rage anyway...it is just a stupid phone...people act like it is some great new inovative idea...it is just a phone
Necronomikro

join:2005-09-01

1 recommendation

Re: Vonage needs to realize

The problem isn't that vonage is being passed up, it's that vonage is being sued by verizon for patent infringement... has nothing to do with being outclassed, more to do with verizon being jerks.
Geebo

join:2004-10-18
Fort Wayne, IN
You don't get it ....huh.?? how about saving lots of money while getting more phone features.
rodrod5

join:2001-02-28
Houston, TX

1 recommendation

Re: Vonage needs to realize

well i just never got real excited about a "feature filled phone"

I just like to pick it up and make a few calls.....sometimes im even ok when it rings

If my residence was a business then im sure I would need many more features on a phone.....many more than vonage would deliver.....and with much more reliability...and I would be willing to pay a bit more for that

as for a home phone....just don't need "features".....I have enough other cool crap to learn about than a phone
Enlightener

join:2006-01-28
Cedar Park, TX

3 recommendations

Re: Vonage needs to realize

Here is why I think VoIP is a very big deal... It has nothing to do with saving $20/mo.

If you go back to networking 101, there are three basic types of networks: Circuit Switched, Packet Switched and Mail Switched ( Any one here remember Fidonet?? )

POTS/PSTN used to be all circuit switched. Now the backbone is primarily packet switched providing virtual circuits. But the individual lines from the CO/RT to the house are still circuit switch.

VoIP extends this concept by basically turning the phone line from a circuit to an application session. In turn this abstraction allows the phone to run as a service over a generic dumb fat pipe just like any other application you use.

This is a big deal because we are seeing all our various applications ( IPTV for one ) all converge over a single package based network. In the long run I think this is a very big deal and very important to how we design our networks in the future. One big network instead of dedicated silo'd networks that can't interop.

The phone companies hate this because they aren't sure how to base a business model on it, but it's going to happen anyways. There are just too many reasons to go this way

Jeffrey
Connoisseur of leisurely things
Premium
join:2002-12-24
Long Island
kudos:3
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Verizon FiOS
·Vonage

Re: Vonage needs to realize

said by Enlightener:

Here is why I think VoIP is a very big deal... It has nothing to do with saving $20/mo.

If you go back to networking 101, there are three basic types of networks: Circuit Switched, Packet Switched and Mail Switched ( Any one here remember Fidonet?? )
Every once in a while, someone here will mention something about the 'old days' that really gives me a good flashback. A few months ago, someone mentioned the term "US Robotics Host Dual Standard" which really threw me back a number of years for a few seconds. Today, you mentioned Fidonet, which I haven't heard in a long time. Excercise for the brain, I love it.
--
"When you get lost in your imaginatory vagueness, your foresight becomes a nimble vagrant."

[Ramblings] [RIP Millie 1993-2006]
Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL

1 recommendation

Re: Vonage needs to realize

If you like hearing "Fidonet", then you'll love to take a walk down memory lane with UUCP and bangpaths!
gh4456
Premium
join:2004-04-07
Beverly Hills, CA
Actually,

Embarq is pushing for all packet switched lines. Currently there are over 1 million access lines in the network that are completely packet switched.

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
said by Enlightener:

One big network instead of dedicated silo'd networks that can't interop.

Are you saying *One System, It Works*. Like Ma Bell? That is what you just said.

Chinabound
Premium
join:2002-12-21
Antioch, IL
kudos:3
said by rodrod5 :
.....sometimes im even ok when it rings
The sentence of the century.
dentman42
Premium
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH

Re: Vonage needs to realize

said by Chinabound:

said by rodrod5 :
.....sometimes im even ok when it rings
The sentence of the century.
I hate when it rings. But then again, working in a call centre can do that to ya...

La Luna
RIP Lisa
Premium
join:2001-07-12
Warwick, NY
kudos:3

1 edit

2 recommendations

said by rodrod5:

well i just never got real excited about a "feature filled phone"

I just like to pick it up and make a few calls.....sometimes im even ok when it rings

If my residence was a business then im sure I would need many more features on a phone.....many more than vonage would deliver.....and with much more reliability...and I would be willing to pay a bit more for that

as for a home phone....just don't need "features".....I have enough other cool crap to learn about than a phone
It's not about "learning the phone", whatever that means. My Vonage line works just like any other phone. The service has been rock solid for the 3 years I've had it. Of course, it's dependent on the quality of internet service, but if that's good (which mine is), most people have no issues. Cell phones provide backup for that rare internet or power outage.

In addition to what Enlightener See Profile said, it's also about cost. Maybe YOU don't make a lot of long distance calls that providers like Verizon charge an arm and a leg for, but many of us do. Before I got Vonage, my phone bill was running, at a minimum, anywhere from $250-$300 per MONTH from LD calls to the UK. I got Vonage, paying about $32/Mo. (including taxes) for the unlimited plan and my bill dropped to 1/3 of what it was. Then Vonage started including Europe in their calling area for free and it dropped to the base rate of $32.....for the same amount of calls.

There's no way traditional POTS providers can, or would even want to, compete with that. And don't they know it. This isn't about patent infringement, that's only the excuse. It's about killing competition that Verizon can't compete with.
--
~~"As long as America is an infidel enemy, terrorizing it is a duty." Sayed Imam Abdul-Aziz el-Sheriff~~

Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL

Re: Vonage needs to realize

Features, not unlike atom bombs, do not need to be used to get your message across.

CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
I certainly understand the feeling as well. To get decent VOIP I would have to upgrade my DSL and spend more money per month, then I would have to get a UPS to keep the router and VOIP hardware running during a power outage (hopefully it is short) and heaven forbid my CLEC has any issue that causes the line to go down (luckily only down for a total of 2 weeks right after 9/11/01 - but the possibility is there) and then I personally do NOT trust the 911 service as well and with 2 young kids - that is a deal breaker for me.

Not to mention - I would not save huge amounts - we don't do a lot of long distance calling and if I do then it is on the cell.

I personally don't want everything running where one point of failure takes everything out. While the internet is stable - not all of the ISP's, ILEC/CLEC's are and hardware issues will happen...
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Vonage needs to realize

When, oh when, are people going to learn that the world is not JUST ABOUT THEM?

All this "I see no need for Vonage" talk reminds me of the wife of a former colleague who said "I don't see why all the guys are so excited about the first Home Depot to open in town. Alfred at the hardware store sells me all the nails I need...."

You want to keep paying too much for century old technology? Fine. Quit bitching about the rest of us who prefer to drive modern cars instead of Model T's.

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County

Re: Vonage needs to realize

I was not "bitching' about anyone...
dentman42
Premium
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH
said by calvoiper:

When, oh when, are people going to learn that the world is not JUST ABOUT THEM?

All this "I see no need for Vonage" talk reminds me of the wife of a former colleague who said "I don't see why all the guys are so excited about the first Home Depot to open in town. Alfred at the hardware store sells me all the nails I need...."

You want to keep paying too much for century old technology? Fine. Quit bitching about the rest of us who prefer to drive modern cars instead of Model T's.

calvoiper
So you're saying Home Depot is new technology?

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Vonage needs to realize

No, I'm saying just because YOU PERSONALLY do not need or desire something is no reason to think it is worthless or a bad business idea.

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT
Uhh, you ARE paying too much for century old technology... what do you think runs in that modern car of yours and ran in that Model-T... an internal combustion engine.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp

RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

Re: Vonage needs to realize

Not to mention that ancient electricity.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT

Re: Vonage needs to realize

Yes, good retort but do you really think that 100+ years later noone has or could invent something better, cleaner, more efficient to run automobiles than the internal combustion engine based off of fossil fuels? Come on...
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp

RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

Re: Vonage needs to realize

I thought we were having fun here. Sorry to laugh during your church service.

Sheesh.

Loosen up.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

ieolus
Support The Clecs

join:2001-06-19
Danbury, CT

Re: Vonage needs to realize

Sorry, easy to miscontrue replies on here. Loose now.
--
"Speak for yourself "Chadmaster" - lesopp

RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

Re: Vonage needs to realize

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
said by ieolus:

Yes, good retort but do you really think that 100+ years later noone has or could invent something better, cleaner, more efficient to run automobiles than the internal combustion engine based off of fossil fuels? Come on...
Incumbants protecting themselves......
Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
said by ieolus:

...do you really think that 100+ years later noone has or could invent something better, cleaner, more efficient to run automobiles than the internal combustion engine based off of fossil fuels?
Many people have come up with numerous alternatives. AFAIK none are more efficient, few are truly cleaner, and the consumer market has been unwilling to accept the higher costs and certain shortcomings that they have, compared to the internal combustion engine.

"You know, everyone complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it."

T1 Rocky

join:2002-11-15
Dallas, TX
said by calvoiper:

You want to keep paying too much for century old technology? Fine. Quit bitching about the rest of us who prefer to drive modern cars instead of Model T's.

calvoiper
Listen here sonny, my telegraph has gotten me along just fine. So you and the Kaiser just go back to Russia you commies!

But seriously, I couldn't agree more. Even if your not on the edge of technology you should still be in favor of it. Verizon and the phone companies have spent the last 15 years spending literally BILLIONS lobbying the government to tax phone lines and then the phone companies collect those taxes. Think about it. The phone line to your house is $5 worth of copper that was rolled out 30 years ago. And how much are you paying for that line? After taxes probably $25 per month not including long distance. And they probably havent been to your house in or serviced that line for 10 years right? What's their return on investment on that?

That's what happens when there is no competition. Now that VOIP has come along they realize that they have shot themselves in the foot. By getting the govnt to "force" them to collect all of those taxes, their copper line can not compete with VOIP.

Plus the technology of voip offers a very promising future. It's really disgusting that Verizon has lobbied so extensively that they can snuff out technologies now just to preserve their monopoly. When was the last time a piece of legislation or a court ruling was not in their favor? I guarantee its been more than 10 years.
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO
I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages. In fact, I'll bet a lot of people don't even realize that their POTS lines work when the power goes out. Why? Cordless phones don't work without power.

What I'd really like is for WiMax to eliminate the last mile physical connection. Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.

RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

1 recommendation

Re: Vonage needs to realize

said by rradina:

Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.
Now imagine how that would potentially create congestion like never before.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
said by rradina:

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages. In fact, I'll bet a lot of people don't even realize that their POTS lines work when the power goes out. Why? Cordless phones don't work without power.

What I'd really like is for WiMax to eliminate the last mile physical connection. Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.
It mainly goes back to 911 - I trust cell 911 and VOIP 911 and that is of utmost importance to me. Main reason we have one regular phone is to use during a blackout. Cell is somewhat limited - there are areas still where cells still don't work great with poor/no signal so for me - that is not a great solution.
--
Brian

"Some people are like Slinkies...
Not really good for anything......
But they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs."
dentman42
Premium
join:2001-10-02
Columbus, OH

Re: Vonage needs to realize

said by CylonRed:

said by rradina:

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages. In fact, I'll bet a lot of people don't even realize that their POTS lines work when the power goes out. Why? Cordless phones don't work without power.

What I'd really like is for WiMax to eliminate the last mile physical connection. Imagine having video, network and voice with no wires or fiber. Now imagine how that would potentially create competition like never before.
It mainly goes back to 911 - I trust cell 911 and VOIP 911 and that is of utmost importance to me. Main reason we have one regular phone is to use during a blackout. Cell is somewhat limited - there are areas still where cells still don't work great with poor/no signal so for me - that is not a great solution.
In a situation with a widespread power outage, cell serivces are likely to be overloaded too. I've been in a situation where the power was out, my cell couldn't hold a signal or the network was busy (same with my GF's cell, different provider), and POTS was my only option. (Didn't have time to put the cable modem or a TV on a UPS and see if the cable was still up and didn't have DSL yet, but DSL depends on the POTS lines anyway...)
rradina

join:2000-08-08
Chesterfield, MO

1 recommendation

Re: Vonage needs to realize

I guess my experience has been different. I live in St. Louis and four times over the past nine months we experienced power outages that for some, lasted up to a week. (Twice last summer because of wind storms and twice this past winter due to ice storms. The local utility is in the frying pan because they have not been trimming the trees!)

Luckily only the last outage affected my house. I lost power for three days in early January due to an ice storm. I have Vonage as the primary line and it automatically forwards to my wife's cell when it's down. We always had service even though hundreds of thousands of customers in the area were also without power. I have to assume some or most were also relying on their cell phones.

After the first day network congestion may have been eased due to the temperature (20s) and duration of the outage. Some folks were forced to leave their home and stay with relatives and friends. Luckily we have a gas fireplace in our basement. Amazingly, it kept the entire house warm -- 85 in the basement, 70 on the first floor and 62 on the second floor.

Generators were instantly sold out so I bought a power inverter for the car that provided 400watts. Enough for a couple lamps and 14" TV. I was stunned that we never lost analog cable! I even hooked the cable modem up to my laptop and it worked!
Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL

Re: Vonage needs to realize

In Chicago, the heat has been the thing that has triggered failures in ComEd's infrastructure, much of which dates back to the 1930s, and has been neglected for a long time. We would lose power in my neighborhood on hot days, when a million high-rise dwellers would return from work to their oven-hot apartments, crank up the A/C, turn on the big screen TV and start cooking in the microwave. The 80-year-old buried cables would overheat, melt their lead sheaths, short out and set the rubber insulation on fire.

For reasons unknown, one leg of our building's 3-phase would have ~90V on it although the other two were dead. I used to plug my A/C into the AC voltage regulator that I used for my stereo (which boosted 90V to 120V), and stay nice and cool all night. No cable, but DSL worked fine.

WiFi
It's In The Air

join:2002-06-06
NiagaraFalls
Reviews:
·ikTel Networks
·Start Communicat..
said by rradina:

I hear the UPS thing all the time. If you have a cell phone, quit worrying about power outages.
Uh, excuse me??? I guess you didn't see the news this past week about the twister that leveled a town in Kansas. The authorities' rescue management was severely hampered because all cell sites in the area had been destroyed, the state police's own communications system was disabled in that area. So don't say if there is a power outage not to worry if you have a cell. You might also remember on 11Sep01 that not only did the Internet go down but almost every cell and other communication system in North America became overloaded. Hey, and we HAD power.
OK, so now I get to stand on my little soapbox - HURRAY FOR HAM RADIO OPS (like me)
--
Type slowwwwwwer.....I can't keep up!
Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL
said by CylonRed:

To get decent VOIP I would have to upgrade my DSL and spend more money per month...
Holy carp, just how slow is your DSL service? Codecs have improved a lot since the original 56kbps ISDN service came out. If your DSL service is slower than the slowest BRI, then you need to go shopping! Maybe what you're getting is free. If that's the case, consider the cost of monthly POTS compared to the cost of the lowest tier of pay-for DSL service. Surely you can find one that's a better deal than $50 a month for just a dial tone?

And what about cable?

...I would have to get a UPS to keep the router and VOIP hardware running during a power outage (hopefully it is short)
From what I've read on these pages, some of the bundled VoIP services have hardware with built-in battery backup. You could look into that option, or spend the princely sum of $30 for APC's smallest UPS (even less for other brands).

Don't you have a UPS for your computer? Seems to me that anyone who experiences frequent power outages would be wise to spend a few bucks protecting their big electronic investments from all of the transients that come down the AC line every time power goes out, and every time it's restored. A true cheapskate isn't penny wise and pound foolish!

...and heaven forbid my CLEC has any issue that causes the line to go down...
That would leave you SOL when it comes to POTS too. What's your point?

I personally do NOT trust the 911 service as well and with 2 young kids - that is a deal breaker for me.
I don't see what your beef with 911 services has to do with this.

It is beginning to look like you simply aren't ready to move up to the 19th century, with its newfangled electricity and telephony. That's your right. But isn't it a little ironic that you're using a 21st century Internet to rail against them?

Not to mention - I would not save huge amounts - we don't do a lot of long distance calling and if I do then it is on the cell.
Whoa there! Back up a minute. You have a cellphone? All this time, you've been dreaming up ways that VoIP could leave you stranded, and you own a cellphone???

Oh brother!

I smell a mega-Bell shill...

••••••

Derspankster
Premium
join:2003-02-12
Marion, OH
said by Geebo:

You don't get it ....huh.?? how about saving lots of money while getting more phone features.
Skype is even cheaper.
--
I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong
Megladon13

join:2003-09-05
Minneapolis, MN

1 recommendation

Its a phone that works in a new way without needing to have this huge network to maintain. Sure you have a huge network it works on, but its owned by someone else, and the thought is you can (or atleast should) get cheaper phone service by using their phone with a communication line that you already pay for (cable tv). Its not super great because its a phone, its nice because you can call to europe and crazy other places you might have family and it wont cost you 200$ for a 30 min call.
Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL

2 recommendations

said by rodrod5:

I still don't get the whole VOIP rage anyway...it is just a stupid phone...people act like it is some great new inovative idea...it is just a phone
It's not about the phone. With VoIP sometimes there isn't any phone.

It's about the voice. The voice of the people. Putting that voice where it doesn't belong--on a data network. We're sticking it to The Man, man!

•••••

Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
I switched to Vonage a while back and it saves me on average, 50.00 to 60.00 per month versus my old pots/long distance package.

I'd say that's a real big deal.

It single handedly alone pays for my comcast hsi connection. Nice I'd say....free HSI courtesy of Vonage.

Personally, I think this Verizon suit is all about trying to put them out of business and stifle this kind of competition instead of about them feeling their patents were violated.

And, I think that every voip users needs to be concerned about their actions. Verizon undoubtedly doesn't plan to stop with this case if they win. They'll use this as precedent and go after everyone.

What even Verizon pots customers should realize is that this is about Verizon wanting to stop your friends and relatives who use this service..from being able to call you. You pay for you pots line..but they want to stop people from calling you on it.

You should be just as up in arms over this as Vonage and it's customers are.
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!

RadioDoc
Premium,ExMod 2000-03
join:2000-05-11
La Grange, IL
kudos:2

Re: Vonage needs to realize

"You pay for you pots line..but they want to stop people from calling you on it."

You should get a job in Vonage's PR department.
--
Toolmaster of La Grange.

Sly
Premium
join:2004-02-20
Chuckey, TN
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Callcentric
said by rodrod5:

I still don't get the whole VOIP rage anyway...it is just a stupid phone...people act like it is some great new inovative idea...it is just a phone
Yea, people thought the same thing when we went from horse and buggy to "horseless carriages".

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
Vonage is a leach. Vonage builds and contributes nothing. Grow up little children, there is no free lunch. You all have to be weened from your mothers teat.

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Vonage needs to realize

Vonage is not a leech. It is simply one of many companies showing the way to avoid paying tribute to a group of established monopolies utilizing outdated technology.

(And it's certainly not a "leach", which refers to processes of percolation or permeation.)

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ
Using VoIP is like walking into a diner with two eggs and wanting to use the kitchen to make breakfast.

calvoiper

join:2003-03-31
Belvedere Tiburon, CA

Re: Vonage needs to realize

No--using VOIP is like walking into a laundromat and loading your own washer.

Having someone call you a "leech" for using the Internet connection you are paying for is like walking into a laundromat and having an attendant say, "Oh, no, you can't wash towels here. We only pretend to let you wash what you want, but we have this other service called Plain Old Towel Service and we insist you use that instead of doing your own towels. We started out with Plain Old Towel Service, we feel we have a God-given right to exclusively monopolize POTS, and we will do what we can to prevent you from using any other facility to wash towels."

Get with it. The Bell system no longer controls the network, and people are free to use it for what they want to. (And yes, all those cushy, safe, non-productive jobs that used to exist in Basking Ridge are history.)

calvoiper
--
VoIP--the death knell of remaining voice monopolies!
Megladon13

join:2003-09-05
Minneapolis, MN

Yesterday

Yesterday was a great day for america. Hopefuly with what happened yesterday the "enter key" wont be patented and have keyboard makers sued for "stealing their idea" or any other stupid patent that is out there running rampant. Now if we can only remove all the stupid ones already out there we'd be fine.
Time4aNAP
Premium
join:2007-04-09
Des Plaines, IL

Really?

I guess that means that I'm not going to be getting patents for the wheel or the number 7 any time soon...

••••••••••
russotto

join:2000-10-05
West Orange, NJ

Vonage is right

At least two of the three patents were dead obvious, and could be implemented with a DNS server by adding a DNS record type for "IP to Phone Gateway". The third looked like the same thing dressed in obfuscating language. The KSR case goes directly to this kind of patent, making it easier to show obviousness in patents which are merely combinations of existing devices.

I think, though, to claim obviousness now, they'd have had to have raised the issue in their original case. But if their lawyers were any good, they did do so.

•••••••••••••••

NowVOIP
In the beginning there was POTS

join:2006-03-05
Round Lake, IL

1 recommendation

What this really means...

In the simpliest terms, what this really means is that finally someone had enough common sense to see that the patent system was broken, and needed to be fixed.
--
The revolution will be televised!

phoneboy2

@shawcable.net

What about my peanut butter and jelly sandwich patent?

So does this mean the patent on peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches is invalid? No, I am not kidding. There is ACTUALLY a patent on it!

••••••••
wrad

join:2003-09-11
Fort Pierce, FL

OBVIOUS

Weedeater was not given a patent because it was too obvious.

Must be something in DC water that makes people stupid.

HarleyYac
Lee
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ
kudos:2

Just got a mailing from VZ

HI,
12 months @$19.99 for a VZ Freedom package
Lee

batterup
I Can Not Tell A Lie.
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Netcong, NJ

Gas pedels and VoIP.

What does a gas pedal being obvious have to do with VoIP? That's like saying Vista is obvious so I can use it for free.

Telly Boot
Premium
join:2002-05-15
Vancouver, BC

"under increased skepticism.."

er, what does "under increased skepticism" mean: under increased scrutiny by skeptics...???
--
Dawn,n,The time when men of reason go to bed. (Ambrose Bierce.)