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Comments on news posted 2007-09-04 18:30:59: When we started talking about Comcast's efforts to limit BitTorrent seeding by forging TCP Reset (RST) packets, some users were angry that Comcast was "violating the legitimacy" of the TCP protocol. ..

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ztmike
Mark for moderation
Premium Member
join:2001-08-02
La Porte, IN

ztmike

Premium Member

Comcrap

Of course Comcast could win in a court battle..They have a team of lawyers on their side 24/7 that are some of the highest paid in the country. Some regular old Joe is NOT going to win against that.

I'm just glad this "Limiting bitorrent" hasn't hit me yet in NW Indiana. Comcast is probably testing this and then implenting it into their network nation-wide if it works..

I got to ask ..WHEN IS COMCAST GOING TO UP THEIR SPEEDS? arghh

swhx7
Premium Member
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia

1 edit

1 recommendation

swhx7

Premium Member

Re: Comcrap

I agree they would win in court, but I think it is "defauding the customers" in some sense. If Comcast deliberately forges a packet, and the customer relies on that packet to be genuine, and suffers disadvantage because it's not, there are the legal elements are deception, intent to deceive, reliance, and harm. It's on such a micro-scale that it would never be placed under the same legal rule as selling bogus merchandise, but in principle it is odious.

To the editorialist above: Is it OK for an individual to go into a situation for some other purpose - say, into a business to install a router - and start falsifying traffic? Maybe it benefits some third party; does that make it OK? If not, then why is it OK for a corporation to do the same?

The larger issue is that if it comes to be considered acceptable for ISPs to falsify customers' internet traffic on a small scale, it opens the door to legalized DNS poisoning, stealth censorship of news reports, and other abuses.

Edited to clarify.
matrix3D
join:2006-09-27
Middletown, CT

matrix3D

Member

Re: Comcrap

Unfortunately, in this country of ours ("The best in the world!") it is never justice or reason that wins in our courts -- it's who can spend the most money and drag it out the longest. How much longer do we have to let the rich get away with whatever they want before U.S. citizens will start the next revolution?
Kzbd
join:2006-10-01
Roselle, IL

Kzbd

Member

Re: Comcrap

YEAH REVOLUTION! Wait, you want to storm Comcast?
lesopp
join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL

lesopp to swhx7

Member

to swhx7
I think there is an angle worth investigating.

Remember the FCC decision to label cable modem service as an information service instead of a telecom service in effect removing regulatory requirements.

I could be wrong but a big difference between the two is that bits change in a telecom service and they do not change in an information service. I could have this completely reversed but if not then comcast is operating a telecom service and should have to experience the full impact of each appropriate regulator entity.

CableConvert
Premium Member
join:2003-12-05
Atlanta, GA

CableConvert to ztmike

Premium Member

to ztmike
Except...the author is saying that States could go after Comcast...aka New Yorks AG.
They send a packet that tells you its from the remote host you are trying to connect with that says "no thanks...please terminate" if thats not fraud...what is? They can drop the packet...thats fine...but I think fraud is over the line IMHO
15063053 (banned)
This space for rent.
join:2007-07-22

1 edit

15063053 (banned) to ztmike

Member

to ztmike
said by ztmike:

I got to ask ..WHEN IS COMCAST GOING TO UP THEIR SPEEDS? arghh
Aren't you happy with your Powerboost? I'll take my steady FiOS 15/2 Mbps anyday over Comcrap service.

LeftOfSanity
People Suck.
join:2005-11-06
Dover, DE

LeftOfSanity

Member

Re: Comcrap

said by 15063053:

said by ztmike:

I got to ask ..WHEN IS COMCAST GOING TO UP THEIR SPEEDS? arghh
Aren't you happy with your Powerboost? I'll take my steady FiOS 15/2 Mbps anyday over Comcrap service.
Yea because Verizon is 100% legit and for the customer. In case you didn't know, FioS is not available to everyone.

"Comcrap" - What an original play on words. Wish I thought of that.

S_engineer
Premium Member
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL

S_engineer

Premium Member

Re: Comcrap

some of us don't have much of a choice when it comes to broadband...Cumcrap knows this and they arrogantly fee us to death for Sh*tty service while telling us just how Comcraptic it is....

once I get a decent choice, I'm gone!

comcastuser2734
@comcast.net

comcastuser2734 to LeftOfSanity

Anon

to LeftOfSanity
said by LeftOfSanity:

said by 15063053:

said by ztmike:

I got to ask ..WHEN IS COMCAST GOING TO UP THEIR SPEEDS? arghh
Aren't you happy with your Powerboost? I'll take my steady FiOS 15/2 Mbps anyday over Comcrap service.
Yea because Verizon is 100% legit and for the customer. In case you didn't know, FioS is not available to everyone.

"Comcrap" - What an original play on words. Wish I thought of that.
You must work for the company or have other interest. There is no perfect company, to me it is just trading one evil corporation for another. In the end every company is out to make money and there is no way to make EVERYONE happy all of the time.

I am happy with my connection and I do not have diluted perceptions about what I am paying for. The price is exactly the same as it is nationally. I also beleive that the price I pay is fully justified, considering it is the same price I paid 4 years ago, and I was getting less than half of the speed at 3 mb. I am now signed up for 8 mb and getting the following from my speed tests.


JasonD
@charter.com

JasonD

Anon

Re: Comcrap

Charter is no better. I work for Charter. They are unorganized, cheating liars. And the subcontracting company I work for is no better. I'm sure Comcast is the same. These companies don't give two shits about their customers.

Obliteration
Premium Member
join:2005-09-18
Somewhere

Obliteration to ztmike

Premium Member

to ztmike
said by ztmike:

Of course Comcast could win in a court battle..They have a team of lawyers on their side 24/7 that are some of the highest paid in the country. Some regular old Joe is NOT going to win against that.

I'm just glad this "Limiting bitorrent" hasn't hit me yet in NW Indiana. Comcast is probably testing this and then implenting it into their network nation-wide if it works..

I got to ask ..WHEN IS COMCAST GOING TO UP THEIR SPEEDS? arghh
They can't supply the current speeds as it is. Why do you think they are throttling?

HardwareGeek
join:2003-11-15
Brooklyn, NY

HardwareGeek to ztmike

Member

to ztmike
You guys quote a NY law, but NY law also has something called Clean Hands law.

Which basically means you can't sue someone if you your self are doing something that can be considered illegal.

So you can't sue Comcast for preventing you from downloading some Movie you don't own. No lawyer in their right mind would take your case.

swhx7
Premium Member
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia

1 edit

swhx7

Premium Member

Re: Comcrap

said by HardwareGeek:

Which basically means you can't sue someone if you your self are doing something that can be considered illegal.

So Comcast couldn't sue customers for sending forged packets, then? I suppose it's prohibited by their terms of service, which would be rather hypocritical.

Also, Comcast doesn't discriminate, they sabotage all BT. A plaintiff would be someone seeding a Linux ISO or some such.
kitsune361
join:2007-08-12
Corpus Christi, TX

kitsune361 to HardwareGeek

Member

to HardwareGeek
There are lots of legitimate uses for bittorrent, in fact it has been incorporated into several patching systems like for Blizzard's World of Warcraft. Can anyone out there in the area affected still patch thier WoW client?

Jmartz0
join:2000-07-20
Tenafly, NJ

1 edit

Jmartz0 to ztmike

Member

to ztmike
Click for full size
Cablevision just uncapped their BOOST customers' modems... certainly Comcast, which has speeds that don't even approach Optimum Onlines could handle bit torrent traffic... either that, or they need to invest money in splitting nodes so more bandwidth is available per homes pass to the customer.

Granted, it's the middle of the night, but I was getting what I would consider pretty good speeds earlier this afternoon as well... Comcast should step back and fix their network instead of just putting limits on what customers can and can not do.

NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
TP-Link TD-8616
Asus RT-AC66U B1
Netgear FR114P

NormanS to ztmike

MVM

to ztmike
said by ztmike:

Of course Comcast could win in a court battle..They have a team of lawyers on their side 24/7 that are some of the highest paid in the country. Some regular old Joe is NOT going to win against that.
New York Attorney General Andrew M. Cuomo isn't a "regular old Joe". I doubt that Comcat's pockets are as deep as the pockets of the State of New York.

The question is, what would it take to get AG Cuomo interested?

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Just be honest with the public/your customers.

While Comcast may be denying traffic shaping, and is 'protecting' its network from BitTorrent (or just protecting in general, in a manner in which BitTorrent traffic is being affected). Just come clean. Is BitTorrent traffic being 'altered' in any way/shape/form vs. other traffic ?
DufiefData
join:2006-06-13
Gaithersburg, MD

DufiefData

Member

Re: Just be honest with the public/your customers.

"...the chance of Comcast facing any legal trouble for their traffic shaping is marginal at best, given Comcast's goal is to protect the integrity of their network, not defraud customers."
At least we're being honest about Comcast's overall motives here. We can probably compare this to attempts by a telephone company to prevent customers from connecting to a known fraudulent or criminal telephone number. There are a lot of possible analogies out there, but I'm also not so sure that Comcast won't have to defend this in court at some point..

JamesPC
join:2005-10-12
Orange, CA

JamesPC

Member

word

Get a new ISP, if you dont have any other options. BUMMER!

ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

ninjatutle

Member

.

The BT users are likely breaking the law so its a no win situation.

Omega
Premium Member
join:2002-07-30
Golden, CO

1 recommendation

Omega

Premium Member

Re: .

said by ninjatutle:

The BT users are likely breaking the law so its a no win situation.
bittorrent can be used for legal purposes.

Cars can be used to break the law.
Xerox machines can be used to break the law

You name something legal, it can be used to break the law. Bittorrent shouldn't be singled out because of this.

ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

ninjatutle

Member

Re: .

Illegally downloading movies and tv shows just doesnt happen I guess.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
Netgear WNDR3700v2
Zoom 5341J

KrK

Premium Member

Re: .

said by ninjatutle:

Illegally downloading movies and tv shows just doesnt happen I guess.
Recording TV and then fast fowarding thru commercials doesn't happen I guess.

If it does.... Those evil PIRATE TERRORISTS stealing the show! Send the Goose steppers to smash thru the front door and haul 'em away to Gitmo!


ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

ninjatutle

Member

Re: .

FF through commericals aint illegal. I have a 30 sec skip button from my cable tv provider which is also my ISP.

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102

Member

Re: .

Recording a movie, TV show or PPV item onto your VCR or DVD-RW is also considered illegal. I.e. MLB, NFL, etc. all have the disclaimer that recording the show without express written consent is illegal. Does this mean all VCR owners are breaking the law ?

ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

ninjatutle

Member

Re: .

axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC

axus

Member

Re: .

You're finally getting it
Dan8888
join:2007-08-21
Wilmington, DE

Dan8888 to en102

Member

to en102
en102

Actually it is not, regardless of the disclaimer on some shows, the surpreme court has ruled in the past it was 100 percent legal to record a show for private use.

KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium Member
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK

KrK to ninjatutle

Premium Member

to ninjatutle
said by ninjatutle:

FF through commericals aint illegal.
.... Yet.

Glaice
Brutal Video Vault
Premium Member
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY

Glaice to Omega

Premium Member

to Omega
said by Omega:

said by ninjatutle:

The BT users are likely breaking the law so its a no win situation.
bittorrent can be used for legal purposes.

Cars can be used to break the law.
Xerox machines can be used to break the law

You name something legal, it can be used to break the law. Bittorrent shouldn't be singled out because of this.
You forgot Linux distros.
magusat999
join:2005-07-08
Oakland, CA

magusat999 to Omega

Member

to Omega
I agree - and many P2P services (Napster / Shareaza / Gnutella / WinMX ... ad infinitumthat have already been shut down shouldn't have been attacked either - it's just that our politicians will find a way around the constitution or any law if somebody offers them enough grease...

And anyway - you don't need a P2P to get illegal files. P2P doesn't even scratch the surface of how "illegal" software is distributed.

I think it's time for a cassette tape or VHS protest... since it isn't illegal to record with tapes and VHS, wouldn't it be interesting if a point was made by using those formats to share a recent movie or album? And when the screaming starts, then the point of it's legality can be raised and the question can be staged... If it was okay (legal) in one format - why isn't it okay in another???

stomp357
join:2003-04-13
Lake Charles, LA

stomp357 to ninjatutle

Member

to ninjatutle
said by ninjatutle:

The BT users are likely breaking the law so its a no win situation.
Your computer can be used to break the law, so do the right thing, and stop using it.

blablablaa
@telus.net

blablablaa

Anon

Re: .

said by stomp357:

said by ninjatutle:

The BT users are likely breaking the law so its a no win situation.
Your computer can be used to break the law, so do the right thing, and stop using it.
I second that notion! LOL
Let the man dictate to you for what you can do!

Nightshade
Premium Member
join:2002-05-26
Salem, OR

Nightshade to ninjatutle

Premium Member

to ninjatutle
Can you provide evidence to your statement or are you just stating an opinion?

ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA

ninjatutle

Member

Re: .

Click for full size
A picture says a.......

exocet_cm
Writing
Premium Member
join:2003-03-23
Brooklyn, NY

exocet_cm

Premium Member

That is correct comrad

This can all foiled by a VPN connection mind you

••••••••••

scooterr50
join:2007-08-08

1 recommendation

scooterr50

Member

linch mob reporters?

whats up with all the comcast bashing latley? seems like every day i see some news about them thats berateing. there not that bad people. i think we have a linch mob of news reporters. you want to talk about crap, then lets talk about adelphia (the worlds most worst ISP provider). thank god there no longer in buisness.

••••••••••••••••••

Anonymous Author
@oracle.com

Anonymous Author

Anon

Comcast nearly dead today in Pacific NW

It appears that Comcast is having issues with their service in the Pacific NW. Many users have been left in the dark unable to access email and other services.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords

MVM

Could it happen? Sure it could!

The idea of David vs. Goliath is probably not one that we need to consider. On this scale, it would likely be the state AG that brings a case -- or a team of lawyers working on a class-action case.

That the New York law was cited is very interesting, as New York is very prone to take on cases of consumer abuse by corporations.

This is a great piece of clear thinking:
said by swhx7:

However, the blurb-writer's claim that the practice is not "defauding the customers" is questionable.

The legal elements are deception, intent to deceive, reliance, and harm.

If Comcast deliberately forges a packet, and the customer relies on that packet to be genuine, and suffers disadvantage because it's not, that's fraud.

••••••

Combat Chuck
Too Many Cannibals
Premium Member
join:2001-11-29
Verona, PA

Combat Chuck

Premium Member

Go ahead people.

Keep pushing the issue with silly lawyer games, just don't bitch when you get your way and they start totally blocking BT.

••••••••

comcaster
@comcast.net

-1 recommendation

comcaster

Anon

Laws

Comcast's goal is to defraud customers.

Sorry eggheads, but the law is the law no matter how many suits are on the other side.

Unless you are saying money subverts justice.

Never head of OJ that...

LeftOfSanity
People Suck.
join:2005-11-06
Dover, DE

LeftOfSanity

Member

Re: Laws

said by comcaster :

Comcast's goal is to defraud customers.

Sorry eggheads, but the law is the law no matter how many suits are on the other side.

Unless you are saying money subverts justice.

Never head of OJ that...
Riiight. Im sure the powers of Comcast sat in a secluded room and concocted a plan to defraud its customers.

And i bet you would be the type to try and collect money from Comcast because they defrauded your packets.

Typical thinking...how can i make'um me some easy money fer nuttin.

prestonlewis
Premium Member
join:2003-04-13
Sacramento, CA

prestonlewis

Premium Member

No Alternative

In regards to Comcast bashing mentioned previously. Here's why I severely dislike Comcast. First, I have no options. I'm too far from a CO to get DSL and the only wireless ISP in our area cut speeds and increased prices making it worthless. Comcast is at best a mediocre internet connection yet they charge a premium price. I don't mind the 8,000 download speeds but I'm limited to 768 upload speeds (I want more!). Their customer service centers give conflicting answers, advice and you never know which center you'll get: Texas, St. Louis, Winnipeg, Sacramento, etc. Their contract techs are usually not knowledgeable at all and sometimes makes an easy job more difficult.

I know it's easy bashing the big guy but Comcast is a monopoly where I live. It should be regulated by the government instead of being able to charge/do whatever it wants to it's customers since we have little or no choices for alternative services.

•••••••••

BryanOnComc
join:2007-06-22
Brandon, FL

BryanOnComc

Member

Thumbs Down

Ban Comcast!

CableConvert
Premium Member
join:2003-12-05
Atlanta, GA

1 edit

1 recommendation

CableConvert

Premium Member

The Law is the Law

If you guys would take the time to read this:

»it.slashdot.org/comments ··· 20472375

You would see how Comcast is in clear violation of internet standards as well as FEDERAL law, not to mention STATE laws as well. It wont be long before organizations like the EFF get involved in this...then lets see if Comcast has the stomach for that kind of battle...and the publicity that will come of it...the last thing they want is Congress up their butt

•••••••
War96
join:2007-09-04

War96

Member

I want only one thing for cable

COMPETITION. If I had 3 good cable providers able to offer me service, there would not be a service problem. They would be calling me asking if I wanted more bandwidth and rebate. One day they will reap what they sew.

••••••
Slither
join:2006-12-18

Slither

Member

OK a question....

I have a question for those who say they are fine with this and this is Comcast's right, how far are you willing to let your ISP go with regulations in the name of 'saving bandwidth'. Would you accept your ISP if it started blocking Youtube because its a bandwidth hog? How about if they blocked all video sharing sites since they can all be called hogs, also they may contain illegal content. Would you still stand by your ISP's choice? My point being if you let them get by with such tactics as these whats to stop them from taking it further, much like a communistic government. What if all ISP's saw that Comcast got away with this and then mirrored throughout? Just some food for thought...

••••••••

not2cr8iv
join:2000-08-20
Chantilly, VA

not2cr8iv

Member

Preserve the integrity of their network???

More like preserve the integrity of their business plan.

•••

Diaboyos
join:2007-08-21
united state

Diaboyos

Member

Down with Sandvine

I love the last line of the link:
quote:
"Comcast should immediately cease and desist these egregious violations and cease perpetrating targeted Denial of Service attacks on its customers."
Outstanding!

halfband
Premium Member
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL

4 edits

halfband

Premium Member

Be carefull what you wish for

- So comcast stops throttling BT.
- BT usage starts to clog up the upload link on comcasts network.
- Users complain that the entire comcast network is too slow and demand that they "fix" it.
- Comcast increases the bandwidth of the network so BT and all the applications that BT was slowing down will work and passes along the $10 per month upgrade to us.
- Users complain about the price increase because it is supporting a small number of users and the "I don't use BT so I shouldn't have to pay for it" crowd demands that comcast enforce the TOS and stop all BT so the price can go back down.
....

•••

jester121
Premium Member
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL

jester121

Premium Member

Idiotic...

By the logic of this article, a webmaster could be prosecuted for using an http redirect or massaging DNS records to manage traffic.

I didn't see anything in the quoted statute that allows for causes of action by routers or network cards or TCPIP stacks. Clearly the law is outdated, which means the case gets tossed.

jinishans
@162.136.192.x

jinishans

Anon

Yes - Comcast - BitComet - Connecticut - Connection

I live in Hartford, CT and i'm experiencing upload/download of bittorrent files for the last couple of weeks. I was wondering what was the issue and trying all sorts of things. If Comcast is trying to block Bittorrent up/downloads', Will US become another China to block Internet content/trafic...?
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