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Comments on news posted 2007-11-28 13:53:18: It was recently discovered that Comcast was using forged TCP/IP packets to throttle upstream p2p bandwidth. While the Associated Press got credit for the discovery, it was actually one of our forum users that first uncovered the practice. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · next

Interesting...

I'm happy someone in our forums beat the big boys to it. But, what does this hold for the future?


SilverSurfer1

join:2007-08-19

EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

Yet another case that demonstrates the EFF is the only thing standing between Internet censorship/throttling/blocking by the corporately consolidated providers and the consumer. If not for EFF, the entire Internet in the Western Hemisphere would be controlled by AT*T and Verizon.



gatorkram
Need for Speed
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Winterville, NC
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Suddenlink

My ISP does it too...

I have used wireshark a few times to verify that my isp is also sending out the RST packets, blocking unencrypted upstream seeding.

What we need now, is an automated site and script, that people can submit their wireshark logs to, as proof, and to also filter out the normal stuff, and make a public log of the actual fake/forged packets.

It is my understanding, the way this system is working, it not only sends fake packets to people on the isp that is running this sandvine equipment, but it also sends fake packets to the other peers involved.

It seems to me, some of these other victims isps might want to know that forged and abusive packets are being sent to their end users...
--
Give me bandwidth or give me death!
»/testhistory/661871/4f240



JasonD

@comcast.net

1 recommendation

reply to SilverSurfer1

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

Surely you jest. Bittorent is the scourge of the internet and should be stopped, Comcast is doing it way too politely. As for the EFF, well their focus should be on where it would matter most for consumers. Instead of frivolous suits and claims against corporate entities (which is bad for business and raises prices for consumers) they should be investigating and going after phishers, scammers, spammers, and online pirates.


openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
Germany
kudos:2
reply to SilverSurfer1

How exactly has the EFF done this great miracle? The EFF is a mouthpiece that occasionally has valid arguments of concern for the Internet populace, but I fail to see how they've been a savior for the Western Hemisphere. BTW, what percentage of the market does AT&T and Verizon own?



NOCMan
MacChatter
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO

Just enable QOS define bittorrent and such as "Bulk"

QOS was designed to deal with these problems and would be very effective if used properly to ensure people are getting the service they expect.

There are devices out there as well that can do deep packet inspection to identify those who would try to circumvent normal port based QOS and mark their packets accordingly.

Comcast is just doing this as a means of saving face where they've oversubscribed areas beyond what they're comfortable in spending on a upgrade.
--
Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net



dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

3 recommendations

*ANY* user, *ANY* BT traffic

This is bullshit!
No ISP should be doing a blanket protocol kill!

Guy down the street, running wide open 24/7 and every movie/music file known and chewing hundreds of GB? Boot him!
You or I trying to do a little "Distributed Bandwidth"(WoW/software patchs, Linux, LEGAL HD Videos, whatever) and maintain a 1:1 ratio but we get hosed by this nonsense?
Eat me!

While I have basically moved on to better sources for "things", there is the occasional BT use for LEGAL items done here.
My ratio is getting trashed.
Low ratios get you less speed.
Low ratios can get you banned.

Gee! Thanks!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera



Gaffe
Cable n. 1 A legal means of theft.

join:2003-09-25
Alexander City, AL

2 recommendations

reply to JasonD

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

Says the anonymous Comcast employee.



Gaffe
Cable n. 1 A legal means of theft.

join:2003-09-25
Alexander City, AL
reply to dadkins

Re: *ANY* user, *ANY* BT traffic

Please show me some legal torrents where low ratios get you banned.



Zaber
When all are gone, there shall be none

join:2000-06-08
Cleveland, OH

1 recommendation

reply to JasonD

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

said by JasonD :

...Bittorent is the scourge of the internet...
Justify your statement.
--
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for a lifetime

SilverSurfer1

join:2007-08-19

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to Gaffe

Re: *ANY* user, *ANY* BT traffic

said by Gaffe:

Please show me some legal torrents where low ratios get you banned.
Here ya go, sparky. Unlike the **AAs, who are hellbent on making themselves obsolete, the NHL wants to generate interest in the sport of ice hockey.

SilverSurfer1

join:2007-08-19
reply to openbox9

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

said by openbox9:

How exactly has the EFF done this great miracle?
You can familiarize yourself by starting here. There are a number of factual, actual, quantifiable, qualitative case histories sufficient to get you started.

said by openbox9:

The EFF is a mouthpiece that occasionally has valid arguments of concern for the Internet populace, but I fail to see how they've been a savior for the Western Hemisphere.
Your conjecture and opinion.

said by openbox9:

BTW, what percentage of the market does AT&T and Verizon own?
Irrelevant in the face of the simple fact that the telcos have been vying for role of gatekeeper since the Net's inception.


Da Geek Kid

join:2003-10-11
::1
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to JasonD

surely yer full of $#!t...

Comcast should never be in a business that can't handle the load. We all know they cannot handle that much traffic per customer...



ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
reply to JasonD

said by JasonD :

Surely you jest. Bittorent is the scourge of the internet and should be stopped, Comcast is doing it way too politely. As for the EFF, well their focus should be on where it would matter most for consumers. Instead of frivolous suits and claims against corporate entities (which is bad for business and raises prices for consumers) they should be investigating and going after phishers, scammers, spammers, and online pirates.
Wow, it looks like the Comcast shills are at the party already!
I would tend to think that the EFF is going after scammers as Comcast is trying to scam their customers under the guise of "network management".
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org


dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18
reply to Gaffe

Re: *ANY* user, *ANY* BT traffic

Go to the tracker of your choice where you are a member.
One where you are logged and your ratio is displayed.
One where they state that if your ratio falls too low or you do nothing bet leech - banned!

Remember Demonoid? Sure you do!
They had a few legal torrents.
They also had a ratio policy.
Demonoid is gone now though.

If Demonoid was still up, and I were to continue downloading - whatever, and Comcast was trashing my upload, guess what would happen... Yep! Ban City!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera



spanglo
Premium
join:2004-05-17
San Diego, CA

1 recommendation

reply to Gaffe

Mashimaro don't be a douche.

Throttling EVERYBODY is wrong. Gross Offenders should be the ones throttled if they bust the cap - no one else. Otherwise there's a whole bunch of us who feel like we're not getting the service we're paying for.



ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4

1 recommendation

reply to dadkins

said by dadkins:

My ratio is getting trashed.
Low ratios get you less speed.
Low ratios can get you banned.

Gee! Thanks!
And game, set, match Comcast achieves exactly what they set out to do.
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org


en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

1 edit
reply to Gaffe

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

Yup... I suspect it as well.

CableCo/Telco will raise bandwidth rates IF there's low usage.
Eg. 20Mbps connection isn't an issue if there's low usage.

This works similar to an old fashioned Telco CO, where there's a fixed capacity for lets say 40% at any one time (i.e. 40% of the phones can be calling at the same time).
Typical Internet usage (browsing, video clips,downloads) support this model

Bittorrent is a chatty protocol, and many would see this as excess traffic, or consider it as 'running servers', in a method to deter the usage of p2p/Bittorrent. An old telco equivalent would think of this as having multiple people connecting to a local # and leaving the 2 connections open. Get enough of this, and capacity issues arise.

I don't justify it... if they can't support 20Mbps, then don't offer it. Offering it, then packet shaping / filtering / throttling apps at their discression is not the answer.
Why not do it the old / AOL style:
5Mbps 'Internet' (unrestricted) = $60
20Mbps 'proxied/filtered/restricted Internet want to be' $45

This will solve this issue. Sell the Internet as the what it is. Sell a proxied/ad filled/content pushed/cookie based/data mined AOL wannabe as an alternative.
--
Canada = Hollywood North


gateguy
Premium
join:2001-02-12
Reisterstown, MD
reply to JasonD

I use the Bittorent client built into World of Warcraft to send and receive patches. That is the only time I use any sort of P2P software (that I am aware of).

Does that make me part of the scourge?



dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
kudos:18

2 edits
reply to ptrowski

Re: *ANY* user, *ANY* BT traffic

said by ptrowski:

said by dadkins:

My ratio is getting trashed.
Low ratios get you less speed.
Low ratios can get you banned.

Gee! Thanks!
And game, set, match Comcast achieves exactly what they set out to do.
Yeah, so much for everyone that may have an actual use for BT.
Horseshit!

It would be one thing if it was competing for something offered by Comcast or a Comcast affiliate(payola) - but it's not!
Me and my Network Killing 30GB(Thirty Gigabyte)*TOTAL* monthly use is waxing their bottom line, huh?
30GB per month(Total, both ways) is not harming ANYONE ELSE! Period!
Let alone what little of that is actual BT traffic.
But... my paltry BT usage is getting trashed along side Joe Bandwidth Hog.

Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense, don't it?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


morbo
Complete Your Transaction

join:2002-01-22
00000

1 edit
reply to gateguy

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

yes.



NOYB
St. John 3.16
Premium
join:2005-12-15
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:1

1 edit

1 recommendation

ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service


ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.



Tsume
Premium
join:2004-02-23
Johnson City, TN
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to gatorkram

Re: My ISP does it too...

said by gatorkram:

I have used wireshark a few times to verify that my isp is also sending out the RST packets, blocking unencrypted upstream seeding.

What we need now, is an automated site and script, that people can submit their wireshark logs to, as proof, and to also filter out the normal stuff, and make a public log of the actual fake/forged packets.

It is my understanding, the way this system is working, it not only sends fake packets to people on the isp that is running this sandvine equipment, but it also sends fake packets to the other peers involved.

It seems to me, some of these other victims isps might want to know that forged and abusive packets are being sent to their end users...
I know for a fact that COX in Humboldt County, CA (Eureka/Goleta area) was doing this before they sold to Suddenlink, so it would be no surprise to me if other Suddenlink areas are doing the same.


karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
Chicago, IL
reply to NOYB

Re: ISPs Have Right to Enforce Terms of Service

Using outbound traffic is against the TOS? Please show me in the TOS where I'm not allowed to send traffic. Hell, ANY protocol could be considered a 'server' by your logic. If I upload an FTP, that's outbound traffic. Running a CLIENT isn't running a SERVER. The fact that I'm SENDING data can't be against the TOS, cause otherwise I couldn't GET data. And please explain how a CLIENT is providing service to a third party. I REQUEST data, I SEND data. Hell, by posting this I am doing BOTH.

The simple fact of the matter is that comcast CAN'T PROVIDE what they are selling, and they are using ILLEGAL tactics to try and prevent people from USING what they paid for. If a comcast node can't SUPPORT 1mb upstream, then they shouldn't SELL 1mb upstream. Provide what you sell, and then there will be no issue.
--
Stick it to the MAN. Support your local torrent sites. Proudly providing 100mb of upstream for all your TV, Movie, and MP3 needs.



ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
reply to NOYB

said by NOYB:

ISPs have every right to enforce the TOS you have agreed too:
1) by blocking outbound traffic from servers being operated on residential service.
2) by blocking customers who provide their residential service to third parties by hosting and distributing content for them.

So get over it and start abiding by the TOS you have agreed too. Then there will be no issue.

Your posting history shows that you have some form of vendetta against any definition of server other than your own, even when some very talented people have explained to you in detail what may/may not be a server.

Why is that?
--
"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org

bi0tech

join:2003-06-19
Cockeysville, MD
reply to JasonD

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

I often wonder how many of these type statements on a variety of subjects are true shills, overzealous non-sanctioned employee opinion, or just true believers of nonsense on their own accord.

JasonD care to fill us in?


jericho7

join:2001-07-20
Halifax, NS

1 recommendation

Most isp's throttle

unfortunately most isp's in Canada/USA are doing this, it's just we only hear from the big dogs like Comcast and Cox , a lot of the smaller isp's are also doing this it's nothing new. My isp, Eastlink here in Nova Scotia Canada is also throttling the hell out of there so-called 15mbit service. It gets frustrating trying to do just about anything these days with all the packet shaping these isp's are doing. Like one or more have said here, if they cannot allow users to use there advertised speed cause of possible slowdowns on nodes then they really shouldn't be offering the speeds that they offer if there network cannot handle it.



FFH
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5
reply to SilverSurfer1

Re: EFF Protects the Consumer's Interests

The EFF is nothing but a mouthpiece for music and movie thieves.



81399672
Premium
join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:2

said by FFH:

The EFF is nothing but a mouthpiece for music and movie thieves.
Is that an offical or unoffical position by comcast, just asking for clarification.


ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
reply to bi0tech

said by bi0tech:

I often wonder how many of these type statements on a variety of subjects are true shills, overzealous non-sanctioned employee opinion, or just true believers of nonsense on their own accord.

JasonD care to fill us in?
I bet you it will be the "true beleiver" category from him.