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Comments on news posted 2007-11-29 12:54:57: Comcast gave a bit more detail on the state of their DOCSIS 3.0 upgrades at the CableNEXT Conference this week in Santa Clara, California. Comcast CTO Tony Werner told attendees that the company hopes to have Docsis 3. ..

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QuakeFrag
Premium Member
join:2003-06-13
NH

QuakeFrag

Premium Member

down/up ratio

Awesome... a 50:1 download/upload ratio. A users upload is going to max out just on trying to download something with this out-of-spiraling-control ratio.

telcolackey5
The Truth? You can't handle the truth
join:2007-04-06
Death Valley, CA

telcolackey5

Member

Where does it say 50:1? Can I call FUD?

aaronwt
Premium Member
join:2004-11-07
Woodbridge, VA

aaronwt

Premium Member

This should be good for prices.

This is good. More competition might make FIOS lower their prices agin on their upper tiers.

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3

Premium Member

Current Upstream Speeds?

They will probably roll out 3.0 to the highest speed tiers only.

What is the highest speed tier offered by Comcast now - both Down/Up?
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080

Member

useless...

Why even upgrade if the speeds are going to be in the 20-50 megabit range? This could be done NOW without docsis 3.0

A fully uncapped docsis 2.0 speed would do this already without ANY upgrades. Only areas with docsis 1.0/1.1 should be upgraded to docsis 3.0

Robert
Premium Member
join:2001-08-25
Miami, FL

2 recommendations

Robert to Matt3

Premium Member

to Matt3

Re: Current Upstream Speeds?

said by Matt3:

They will probably roll out 3.0 to the highest speed tiers only.

What is the highest speed tier offered by Comcast now - both Down/Up?
Some markets are at 16/2, 16/1. But it's safe to say that highest tier offered by Comcast, in all of their markets, is 8/768 (synced at 8800/768)

a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY

a333 to tmc8080

Member

to tmc8080

Re: useless...

DOSCIS 2 shares the 50 megs among like 50 users, so comcast cant use it to offer those speeds to each and every sub. Now, hopefully, with channel bonding and the rest of it, DOSCIS 3.0 should be able to make those speeds possible.

mike12806
Premium Member
join:2007-08-28
Framingham, MA

mike12806

Premium Member

Re: Dubious....

wait wait wait......does that mean they will be for sure rolling out 3.0 in these territories....or will they merely have the upgraded infrastructure there to support it? Seems to me like rolling out new cable modems/emta's in 20% of their territory would be quite expensive/time consuming as far as configurations go. On a side note.....are there any Docsis 3.0 emta's available?

QuakeFrag
Premium Member
join:2003-06-13
NH

QuakeFrag to telcolackey5

Premium Member

to telcolackey5

Re: down/up ratio

said by telcolackey5:

Where does it say 50:1? Can I call FUD?
It doesn't. I was being slightly sarcastic with the way they said upload wasn't a priority.
ANWDREW0
join:2004-01-21
Sterling, VA

ANWDREW0

Member

Usless for gamming

I can not say this enough Please give me a reliable
connection I can play on. Its fast but so inconsistent
speed up and down LAg LAg LAg. Fix that and we are good.
Yea I can DL a patch every blue moon fast.. bonus

Cabal
Premium Member
join:2007-01-21

Cabal to tmc8080

Premium Member

to tmc8080

Re: useless...

Comcast is entirely DOCSIS 1.1 (the only requirement for Powerboost) with the exception of ex-Adelphia areas that were already 2.0. They will be performancing an in-place upgrade of 1.1 -> 3.0 in the the vast majority of their areas.
Cabal

Cabal to ANWDREW0

Premium Member

to ANWDREW0

Re: Usless for gamming

said by ANWDREW0:

I can not say this enough Please give me a reliable
connection I can play on. Its fast but so inconsistent
speed up and down LAg LAg LAg. Fix that and we are good.
Yea I can DL a patch every blue moon fast.. bonus
Comcast is one of the most reliable, low-latency connections around. If that is not your experience, you need to call in and have your connection/equipment checked. Lag and high latency are far from the norm.
JerryTongue
join:2003-04-01
Auburn, WA

JerryTongue to a333

Member

to a333

Re: useless...

They are always behind, trailing behind what someone else is already doing or has already done. Talk now is people dont even care about DOSIS 3.0 They either want fiber to the home or Verizon Fios. All Comcast ever offers is stupid stuff that cost them nothing to put up. All smoke and mirrors. While in the mean time everyone else is gearing up for the already demand like HD, and much faster Internet Download as well as Upload speeds. Comcast is like Washington State Highways
By time they add a new lane we could use 2 lanes. My guess by all the heat about traffic shaping, fear from share holders, and the pounding from the FCC and everyone else and the fact they dont want to put any real money into what they have, they will sell out in time. Never seen them in it for the long haul anyways.
tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Brooklyn, NY

tmc8080 to a333

Member

to a333
said by a333:

DOSCIS 2 shares the 50 megs among like 50 users, so comcast cant use it to offer those speeds to each and every sub. Now, hopefully, with channel bonding and the rest of it, DOSCIS 3.0 should be able to make those speeds possible.
Actually the node shares a few hundred megabits (100-400 depending upon how many subscribers per node (24-50), which could be *split* to accommodate the greater speeds. It's the capability of the modems which can do in 40/30 megabit range:
»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS

1.x 38-42mbit / 9-10mbits
2.X 38-42mbit / 27-31mbits
3.X 152-171mbit / 108-123mbits

Again, this move means it will cost money to make money to earn back that market share lost to FIOS symmetrical, either way. Keep in mind, the most under-served areas of the comcast network have VERY HIGH node ratios (higher than 50 per node) which scale back the bandwidth all the way down to 1.X mbit per subscriber at $30-65 price ranges which is totally unacceptable in today's market. Might be competition to a QWEST region but nowhere else.
gaforces (banned)
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
join:2002-04-07
Santa Cruz, CA

2 edits

gaforces (banned)

Member

Rollout

So they are going to rollout a system thats specifications are only half specified, that wont be fully specified till 2008.
And they already ordered the modems in october! Good luck with those modems being compatible with the full docsis3 specs.
If they can fix the upstream channel bonding problems they seem to be having, then buy new modems, re-rollout, win

When was all this supposed to happen? Not 2008.

Im a little confused about why there are certified docsis3 modems, but they dont work with Comcast upstream.
MOTO6809
join:2007-11-05
Springfield, MA

MOTO6809 to tmc8080

Member

to tmc8080

Re: useless...

said by tmc8080:

Why even upgrade if the speeds are going to be in the 20-50 megabit range? This could be done NOW without docsis 3.0

A fully uncapped docsis 2.0 speed would do this already without ANY upgrades. Only areas with docsis 1.0/1.1 should be upgraded to docsis 3.0
They could offer those speeds, but not at the current forward combining they have setup today.. They will more than likely reduce the number of users per downstream QAM , which in some cases means doing node splits. As far as uploading they will need to be at 1:1 per uBr upstream port.

So why rewire everything based on DOCSIS2 when 3 is right around the corner. Not to mention they are not just looking at DOCSIS 3 for fast internet speeds. DOCSIS3 offers a whole bunch of goodies for them.

Shamayim
Premium Member
join:2002-09-23

Shamayim

Premium Member

Comcast Users To See DOCSIS 3.0 in 2008

Come on, Cablevision! You gonna let them get away with that???

thatdood
join:2002-07-03
Plano, TX

thatdood

Member

Comcast making a mistake with Upstream

I think Comcast is making a mistake by only concentrating on download speeds at first. Who cares about having a 50Mbps download. Believe me 15 or 20Mps down is plenty for me if I can get the same Upstream.

I hope they get their stuff together and offer a good product with good prices. This may help drive higher speeds and better prices on Verizon's end. It would also help customers who are not in a Verizon area. As far as competing in the FIOS markets they have a long way to go.

I'll stick to my FIOS symmetrical 15Mbps package!
jammmin
join:2000-12-14
Upper Marlboro, MD

jammmin to Shamayim

Member

to Shamayim

Re: Comcast Users To See DOCSIS 3.0 in 2008

said by Shamayim:

Come on, Cablevision! You gonna let them get away with that???
Cablevision is way ahead in speed and HD offerings.

I think all Cablevision customers can get Booast(up to 30 megabits) and Cablevision has up to 40 HD channels.

Comcrap has 8 megs max in most markets(16 megs in a few select markets) and only 22 or so HD channels.

Now, who is better. lol

alchav
join:2002-05-17
Saint George, UT

alchav to a333

Member

to a333

Re: useless...

said by a333:

DOSCIS 2 shares the 50 megs among like 50 users, so comcast cant use it to offer those speeds to each and every sub. Now, hopefully, with channel bonding and the rest of it, DOSCIS 3.0 should be able to make those speeds possible.
I agree with a333, Cable Companies and Telco's are laid out differently. Cable Companies work on a sharing Network, while Telco's Network starts at the Central Office. DOSCIS 3.0 or Fiber through a Cable Company will still have limitations. Like I said Verizon FiOS is the clear winner anyway you look at it.

danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA

danclan to thatdood

Member

to thatdood

Re: Comcast making a mistake with Upstream

thats ok comcast customer ....once you start seeing how your hd offerings are limited due to lack of 6MHz channels...then how good will docis look.....

Im sure someone will correct me if im talking out of my 30mbps pipe....

Ignite
Premium Member
join:2004-03-18
UK

Ignite to tmc8080

Premium Member

to tmc8080

Re: useless...

said by tmc8080:

said by a333:

DOSCIS 2 shares the 50 megs among like 50 users, so comcast cant use it to offer those speeds to each and every sub. Now, hopefully, with channel bonding and the rest of it, DOSCIS 3.0 should be able to make those speeds possible.
Actually the node shares a few hundred megabits (100-400 depending upon how many subscribers per node (24-50), which could be *split* to accommodate the greater speeds.
Actually Comcast themselves say their average node size is over 450 homes passed and they certainly don't have several downstreams. You can have a vague guess by the different downstream frequencies seen on plant of the same origin but it's certainly not going to be the 10 needed to get close to 400Mbit to a single node.

Even then as the downstreams are not bonded on this gear the maximum available to a single modem is 38Mbit. This is not a limitation of the modem alone but also of the CMTS. The downstreams are discrete and modems contend for bandwidth on each channel not on the entire bandwidth. In at least some areas Comcast use the uBR 7246VXR so can't offer more than 2 downstreams to a node anyway.

50 per node is not a very high node ratio at all. There will be virtually no nodes at all which carry under 50 subscribers. Those nodes that do carry 50 subscribers are probably combined with others as there is no need at all to have nodes that small. a 50hp node is not a node it's FTTK.
Ignite

Ignite to a333

Premium Member

to a333
said by a333:

DOSCIS 2 shares the 50 megs among like 50 users, so comcast cant use it to offer those speeds to each and every sub. Now, hopefully, with channel bonding and the rest of it, DOSCIS 3.0 should be able to make those speeds possible.
DOCSIS 2 can't offer 50Mbit, you need to come to Europe with our 8MHz channels to see 50Mbit on EuroDOCSIS 2.
Ignite

Ignite to Cabal

Premium Member

to Cabal
said by Cabal:

Comcast is entirely DOCSIS 1.1 (the only requirement for Powerboost)
Yep that patented Powerboost technology that's a line in a DOCSIS 1.1 QoS config:

Downstreamam Maximum Transmit Burst (bytes)

Matt3
All noise, no signal.
Premium Member
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC

Matt3 to alchav

Premium Member

to alchav
said by alchav:

said by a333:

DOSCIS 2 shares the 50 megs among like 50 users, so comcast cant use it to offer those speeds to each and every sub. Now, hopefully, with channel bonding and the rest of it, DOSCIS 3.0 should be able to make those speeds possible.
I agree with a333, Cable Companies and Telco's are laid out differently. Cable Companies work on a sharing Network, while Telco's Network starts at the Central Office. DOSCIS 3.0 or Fiber through a Cable Company will still have limitations. Like I said Verizon FiOS is the clear winner anyway you look at it.
You do realize FiOS' BPON and/or GPON architecture is shared at the neighborhood node right, not at the Central Office.

asdfghjklzx5
Premium Member
join:2004-05-03

asdfghjklzx5 to Cabal

Premium Member

to Cabal

Re: Usless for gamming

said by Cabal:
said by ANWDREW0:

I can not say this enough Please give me a reliable
connection I can play on. Its fast but so inconsistent
speed up and down LAg LAg LAg. Fix that and we are good.
Yea I can DL a patch every blue moon fast.. bonus
Comcast is one of the most reliable, low-latency connections around. If that is not your experience, you need to call in and have your connection/equipment checked. Lag and high latency are far from the norm.
Quality of net service is heavily dependent on area. His node might be filled with bittorrent seeders, which would definitely cause lag.

contractor
@comcast.net

contractor

Anon

upstream

Comcast probably isnt worried too much about upstream because they know their customers arent either... the people on this forum are FAR, FAR, FAR away from the average internet customer. the best example i can give you is this. Ive been installing modems for them since they came out. roughly between 5000-8000 installs. Out of all those installs at most 5 people in 10 years even mentioned the word "UPSTREAM". and they were IT guys or busineses. Besides them the other 7995 people could care less or does not even know what upstream is or does. that is no exxageration and anyone that has done this day in day out will tell you the same thing.
UMTSguy
join:2007-01-27
Tuckahoe, NY

UMTSguy to alchav

Member

to alchav

Re: useless...

ODNs are shared -- a BPON distribution hub (in the metal box at the end of your street) splits 622/155 Mbps among 32 users. In other words, if all 32 Fios users on a hub took 20/20 service and maxed out the upstream they would only be able to get 4.84 Mbps each.
JusticeDun
join:2004-10-15
Ohio

JusticeDun to contractor

Member

to contractor

Re: upstream

Yep, you hit the nail on the head. About 95 percent are pretty much clueless and the ISP's would like to keep it that way.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

1 edit

funchords

MVM

Don't Judge Comcast Too Harshly...

...as its vendor (Cisco, presumably) is not putting out DOCSIS3 equipment qualified at the bonded upload speeds, yet.
said by »www.lightreading.com/doc ··· site=cdn :
To help expedite Docsis 3.0 deployments, CableLabs introduced a tiered test program for cable modem termination system (CMTS) equipment. The "Bronze" level introduces downstream channel bonding and IPv6, while "Silver" adds in upstream channel bonding. Modems submitted for Docsis 3.0 testing must support the entire specification.

In the first official Docsis 3.0 test wave at CableLabs, which is presently underway, only one CMTS supplier -- Casa Systems Inc. , a start-up based in Andover, Mass. -- submitted a product for "Full" CMTS testing. Arris Group Inc. and Cisco put their respective CMTS products in for Bronze testing.
It should be noted that the 100 Mbps mentioned is a shared 100 Mbps, similar to the 38 Mbps shared we currently have (or more in Adelphia's old areas). A bump from 6 Mbps to 20 Mbps might happen. One from 6 Mbps to 50 Mbps will not. Again, that's Cablelabs, not Comcast.

The Light Reading article also makes mention of the fact that Comcast intends to make use of the DOCSIS 3 abilities to tie the Internet and Television experiences together at the set-top box.

I am worried that Cablelabs is forgetting that downloading creates an upload path of ACKs/NAKs and etc.. I also don't know how much of CATV's own -- if any -- Video-on-Demand freight will be carried over the IP networks. This could make an upstream pipe full of tiny overhead TCP packets. That could mean trouble for gamers and VoIP.

Comcast has been pretty good about staging roll-outs and testing. The last two upgrades landed here without a problem. But if I were them, I would be careful about announcing anything until they've actually run it in a major market and have seen the results.
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