RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
 ·XMission
| Hams complain, but the reality that it doesn't work matters
I like how the DSLR blurb points out that hams complain about the noise, yet the reason given to NOT continue is that it does not make real world sense.
"He says technology and market conditions have changed rapidly since then and the project's no longer viable.
The company's chairman John Hasker says they announced the decision to end the trial as soon as they became aware it was no longer viable." Also sounds like (from abc.net.au) that there may have been some other shady dealings going on.
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | doot-doot-doot
another one bites the dust.... 
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Eat pork chops for Allah! |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ | Fanatics
received 99 complaints from one person I think that pretty much sums up the "noise problem." 
Mark |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by amigo_boy  :received 99 complaints from one person I think that pretty much sums up the "noise problem." What is someone to do when one complaint is filed and no action is taken? Should they sit on their hands and say "oh well" and wait for months or years for resolution, as has happened with other BPL systems? I'm sure you wouldn't do that if your cell phone or television reception was interfered with.  |
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RayW
Premium
join:2001-09-01
Layton, UT
clubs:
·XMission
| Noticed that he gets vocal when he is interfered with (no BPL at his house due to hams 'interfering'), yet when someone else has to continually report that "nope, they did not fix it yet" that is excessive?
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I am not lost, I find myself every time. |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY
·Qwest.net
| reply to amigo_boy
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
 ·Cox HSI
 ·magicjack.com
| reply to rf_engineer
said by rf_engineer :What is someone to do ... I think they key word is "someone." That's been my point all along. Hobby radio is a diminishing interest. Shrinking license holders, and shrinking active participants among those holders.
Mark |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| said by amigo_boy :said by rf_engineer :What is someone to do ... I think they key word is "someone." That's been my point all along. Hobby radio is a diminishing interest. Shrinking license holders, and shrinking active participants among those holders. "Hobby radio" as you put it is slightly less than 10% of the HF radio spectrum affected by BPL. It's even less if you consider the spectrum from 30 to 80 Mhz. The rest of the "someone" is government, military, broadcast, maritime, and aviation. All of these entities continue to use the spectrum and the NTIA in the US has essentially refused to give any of it away (barring five 3 khz channels a few years ago), so it must be of some value. And the fact remains that the laws are in place to reserve this spectrum for license holders. If you don't think this spectrum is worth anything and deserves to be trashed by a wired network that can't keep its energy within its media, please lobby your politicians to remove it as a regulated and licensed band and you'll discover the interest in HF (and low band VHF) is far from diminishing. |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| said by rf_engineer :The rest of the "someone" is government, military, broadcast, maritime, and aviation. This is the "HAMs are the vocal minority defending everyone else" argument. I think those other groups are capable of speaking for themselves. In the case of Tasmania, they didn't.
Mark |
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jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
 ·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| What's the matter "amigo_boy" ? Your portfolio full of energy stocks that made a big investment in a soon to fail broadband mode (BPL) ? Or, is your yearly bonus up for grabs because your team hasn't made a BPL promise come true for management yet...
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3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
"Peace through superior firepower" |
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Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
Sweden
 ·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :received 99 complaints from one person I think that pretty much sums up the "noise problem." Mark If your TV server or broadband started disconnecting every couple minutes and your ISP ignored you, what would you do???? Exactly...
-Tzale |
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Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
Sweden
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :said by rf_engineer :What is someone to do ... I think they key word is "someone." That's been my point all along. Hobby radio is a diminishing interest. Shrinking license holders, and shrinking active participants among those holders. Mark Same people in every BPL thread try so hard to badmouth the Amateur Radio service. 
-Tzale |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :said by rf_engineer :The rest of the "someone" is government, military, broadcast, maritime, and aviation. This is the "HAMs are the vocal minority defending everyone else" argument. I think those other groups are capable of speaking for themselves. In the case of Tasmania, they didn't. Your position is the classic "'hobbyists' don't deserve interference protection" argument. That argument has been debunked before as the amateur radio service goes beyond just hobbyist wants and needs and amateurs actually have a minority interest in the affected spectrum.
I'm not as familiar with the Australian situation, but in the US the NTIA did speak up. It was called the Phase 1 Report. The then acting NTIA commissioner put a nice cover letter on the report which glossed over what the report said and FCC Chairman Powell implemented notching for some frequencies but largely ignored most of the report as well which was quite damning. Politics trumped engineering, physics, and reality. (Does that sound like the FCC?)
I think most government agencies lack the wherewithal to recognize and act against such issues like the BPL interference problem. Most amateurs have taken great pains not speak for other groups. However as citizens and taxpayers they have every right to speak to the issue. The technical facts remain; if BPL will cause localized interference for a typical amateur receiver, there's nothing magical about the receivers of other HF licenses that will make the interference not exist. Additionally, the noise floor issues threaten to wreck HF over the long term. If this problem ever occurs, it will be way too late to address it when it's figured out what the root cause is.
From a wireless spectrum standpoint, BPL is akin to being allowed to dump garbage wherever and whenever as long as no one notices. As an amateur I don't want them dumping the garbage in amateur spectrum. As a citizen and technologist, I don't want them dumping it anywhere. The HF spectrum is too valuable to waste on an over-hyped, over-marketed, cheap Internet service that doesn't live up to its technical promises and business objectives. |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| reply to Tzale
said by Tzale :If your TV server or broadband started disconnecting every couple minutes and your ISP ignored you, what would you do???? False analogy. There are millions of TV viewers and broadband subscribers, with numbers growing every day. If something interfered with either group you'd expect more than 99 complaints from *one* person.
I understand why you don't want to assimilate this point. "30 people up the coast" during floods. One person affected by BPL. Screaming about interference at the same time hobbyists encourage a whopping 10-times consumption of bandwidth (promoting voice over CW Morse code).
Hobby radio is a walking contradiction. It's no wonder the only defense is an endless series of false analogies, and name-calling.
It's time to move on.
Mark |
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N3OGH
Bear patrol must be working like a charm
Premium
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs
·Verizon FIOS
·Verizon Online DSL
| Hmm, I'm guessing either....
You couldn't pass your exam, so you've got sour grapes...
Your ex girlfriend's daddy is a ham, so you hate 'em all.
Your daddy was a ham, and he left mommy, and now you hate all of them because he found someone 10 years younger than mommy to "play" with.
You have an awful lot of hate in your heart, son. Unfortunately, you never seem to make an actual argument.
How 'bout this. I'll help ya out.
Tell us how you would re allocate the current amateur radio spectrum.
Go on, wow us with your technical expertise and insight....
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Petty people are disproportionably corrupted by petty power… |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| reply to rf_engineer
said by rf_engineer :Politics trumped engineering, physics, and reality. (Does that sound like the FCC?) No. It sounds like reality. That's what happens when you have a shrinking interest group. It's the same thing that would happen if we set aside parks and national forests, and fewer people used them. (Expect parking lots and condos despite the protestations of a shrinking "open spaces" group.).
said by rf_engineer :if BPL will cause localized interference for a typical amateur receiver, there's nothing magical about the receivers of other HF licenses that will make the interference not exist. Evidently, in the topic under discussion, it didn't exist for more than one person.
said by rf_engineer :From a wireless spectrum standpoint, BPL is akin to being allowed to dump garbage wherever and whenever as long as no one notices. The sound of one hand clapping? If a tree falls in the forest, and (relatively speaking) nobody hears it, did it make a sound?
Mark |
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rf_engineer
join:2003-08-04
USA
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :said by Tzale :If your TV server or broadband started disconnecting every couple minutes and your ISP ignored you, what would you do???? False analogy. There are millions of TV viewers and broadband subscribers, with numbers growing every day. If something interfered with either group you'd expect more than 99 complaints from *one* person. This was one example that was cited. I believe there were other complaints from other people.
BTW, your argument above is the "the needs of many outweigh the few" that has been hashed out here before. It's a logical conclusion (and wrong) to come to if you consider only amateur radio, however if you'd accept the fact that HF is more than amateur radio or even that amateur radio goes beyond hobbyist use, you'd understand.
I understand why you don't want to assimilate this point. "30 people up the coast" during floods. One person affected by BPL. Screaming about interference at the same time hobbyists encourage a whopping 10-times consumption of bandwidth (promoting voice over CW Morse code).
What? This doesn't even make sense.
Hobby radio is a walking contradiction. It's no wonder the only defense is an endless series of false analogies, and name-calling.
Where do you see name-calling in this thread? You're complaining about false analogies yet you're basing your entire position on erroneous assumptions.
It's time to move on.
It's time to recognize BPL as a failed experiment and move on to some real broadband solutions. |
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Tzale
Proud Libertarian Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
Sweden
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online
| reply to amigo_boy
said by amigo_boy :said by Tzale :If your TV server or broadband started disconnecting every couple minutes and your ISP ignored you, what would you do???? False analogy. There are millions of TV viewers and broadband subscribers, with numbers growing every day. If something interfered with either group you'd expect more than 99 complaints from *one* person. I understand why you don't want to assimilate this point. "30 people up the coast" during floods. One person affected by BPL. Screaming about interference at the same time hobbyists encourage a whopping 10-times consumption of bandwidth (promoting voice over CW Morse code). Hobby radio is a walking contradiction. It's no wonder the only defense is an endless series of false analogies, and name-calling. It's time to move on. Mark There are 30+ hams in my town, and it's only 1 square mile... So I don't see how you think there are only "30 hams" up and down the coast...
Not every ham in an emergency volunteer. Just stop posting because you don't know what you're talking about. And I earned this license from the FCC... I'll be damned if they're going to take those privileges away from me without any wrongdoing on my part.
-Tzale |
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W1RFI
join:2003-05-12
Burlington, CT
| reply to amigo_boy
Re: Fanatics
Sounds good to your agenda, perhaps, but the reality is:
»p1k.arrl.org/~ehare/bpl/hams_vs_···tion.jpg
BPL, on the other hand, according to the latest FCC report on broadband statistics, had gone from 0.011% of broadband lines in the US to 0.006%.
Wanna' compare the number of licensed Amateurs to the number of people using BPL? If that is the criterion you are using, your side loses.
Those 99 complaints remind me of the times my mother used to say "if I've told you once, I've told you 1000 times," followed by whatever she had told me that I was just blowing off.
Is the real fault here the complainant, or the enforcement that never happened?
But I am more than willing to let folks judge for themselves whether the BPL system in Tasmania warranted continued complaints:
»www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7DfdxjR···ure=user
More info on the Australian and Tasmanian trials:
»reast.asn.au/vk7bplwatch_links.php
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab Manager
225 Main St
Newington, CT 06111
Tel: 860-594-0318
Email: w1rfi@arrl.org
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