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 ptrowskiGot Helix?Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4 | VoIP providers too... They like to tack on fees just like the telco's did. So you get socked twice. | |
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2 edits |  Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter
More discussion on this news clip, Sullivan, and his book here from Jan 29:
»To Comcast I'm just ARPU tell me it isn't so ;( | |
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 |  woody7Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter There is nothing wrong with capitalism, It's that there isn't a choice to choose something else in this instance ( and don't wait for the govment any time soon). For most products and services we have a choice, but when it comes to cable/phone service we don't really have a choice, it is a perceived choice, but not a real one, unless you go without cable and a phone. Cell service is not much of a choice either. Peace
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BlooMe | |
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|  hopeflickerCapitalism breeds greedPremium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
kudos:1
1 edit | said by fAcEtIOUs:Great - another left wing reporter with a hate on for capitalism. His book(Gotcha Capitalism) is marketed as some pro-consumer guide but he is just another reporter who is a socialist at heart. Of course, he is willing to plug HIS book and make a lot of money, making him the usual liberal hypocrite. More discussion on this news clip, Sullivan, and his book here from Jan 29: » To Comcast I'm just ARPU tell me it isn't so ;( take your blinders off!
There are negative aspects of capitalism, you know.
I wonder how many more times the words "move to china" or "communism" will appear in this thread. Bets anyone? 
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Man created God in his image : intolerant, sexist, homophobic and violent. | |
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|  morboComplete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000 | said by fAcEtIOUs:Great - another left wing reporter with a hate on for capitalism. wow. you're really defending "unfees"?
no one is arguing limiting the price charged by companies (is that your misguided 'socialist' slam?), just that the price advertised should be THE PRICE plus federal, state, and local taxes required by law. no hiding the true price of a product or service. | |
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| |  KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter The biggest Myth of all: That we have a "Free Market" economy.
We have a economy that likes to trumpet "Free Market" to keep regulations away so they can abuse at will, but there's nothing "Free" about it because a Free Market system ASSUMES that you have unlimited opportunity for competition as it's main check and balance.
And in many industries, this simply isn't the case.
The Free Market system is as much an unachievable Utopia as the so called Communist Market system. Both are totally impossible to achieve given human nature.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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| | | KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by KrK:The biggest Myth of all: That we have a "Free Market" economy. We have a economy that likes to trumpet "Free Market" to keep regulations away so they can abuse at will, but there's nothing "Free" about it because a Free Market system ASSUMES that you have unlimited opportunity for competition as it's main check and balance. And in many industries, this simply isn't the case. The Free Market system is as much an unachievable Utopia as the so called Communist Market system. Both are totally impossible to achieve given human nature. the three major forms of running things(capitolism, Socialism, Communism) are all impossible in their most pure forms. because they are run by humans. and lets face it we can be evil greedy creatures when wealth and or power is to had.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| | | | said by morbo:wow. you're really defending "unfees"? no one is arguing limiting the price charged by companies (is that your misguided 'socialist' slam?), just that the price advertised should be THE PRICE plus federal, state, and local taxes required by law. no hiding the true price of a product or service. Well as a very kind member astutely pointed out to me in a post similar to this one, you're a socialist if you don't support unfees. Stop promoting socialism, hippie!!  | |
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|  Titus PulloI came, I saw, I slept
join:2004-06-26
kudos:1
·Embarq Now Centu..
| said by fAcEtIOUs:Great - another left wing reporter with a hate on for capitalism. His book(Gotcha Capitalism) is marketed as some pro-consumer guide but he is just another reporter who is a socialist at heart. Of course, he is willing to plug HIS book and make a lot of money, making him the usual liberal hypocrite. So ... reporters are socialists at heart, as are all people trying to make a living in a capitalist republic if what they're selling is contrary to waving the flag. And, of course, all these people are liberals AND hypocrites too. Thanks for clearing that up for me
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| | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by Titus Pullo:So ... reporters are socialists at heart, as are all people trying to make a living in a capitalist republic if what they're selling is contrary to waving the flag. And, of course, all these people are liberals AND hypocrites too. Thanks for clearing that up for me -- You're welcome.
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Internet News
My BLOG
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| |  yockTFTCPremium
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH
kudos:3 | said by Titus Pullo:said by fAcEtIOUs:Great - another left wing reporter with a hate on for capitalism. His book(Gotcha Capitalism) is marketed as some pro-consumer guide but he is just another reporter who is a socialist at heart. Of course, he is willing to plug HIS book and make a lot of money, making him the usual liberal hypocrite. So ... reporters are socialists at heart, as are all people trying to make a living in a capitalist republic if what they're selling is contrary to waving the flag. And, of course, all these people are liberals AND hypocrites too. Thanks for clearing that up for me -- I wish you people would stop making stupid remarks like this. Someone posed a rather difficult question to fAcEtIOUs  and now he gets to ignore it because you gave him an out. | |
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| | | Logical fallacy of ad hominem attack. The author may be *ALL* of the things you state, it doesn't change the truth of the message he conveys and that is these companies will quote you one price and charge you another disguising the difference as "fees" from a third party.
What part of dishonesty and disingenuous marketing doesn't register with you? There's a difference between capitalism and thievery, right? Or is Laissez-faire capitalism a cute euphemism for thievery? | |
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| | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by clickie:these companies will quote you one price and charge you another disguising the difference as "fees" from a third party. I have no trouble finding what the "Fees" are before signing up. While marketing in general oversimplifies things for the masses, if you want to find out the real cost, it isn't hard to do. "Caveat Emptor" is still a good maxim to follow when buying something.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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| | | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter If I were to call AT&T and ask how much the final bill would be at address x for this particular service, they could not tell me.
And before you claim it is because local taxes vary, try asking for the pre-tax, after "Fee" amount. They can't/won't tell you that either.
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Intel Quad Core QX6700 @3500Mhz/Asus P5N32-E SLI/4x 1024Mb Corsair/Seagate 750.10/PNY 7800GTs SLI/Silverstone 850W/Custom water cooler | |
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| | |  sporkmedrop the crantini and move it, sisterPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ
 ·Optimum Online
| said by fAcEtIOUs:I have no trouble finding what the "Fees" are before signing up. While marketing in general oversimplifies things for the masses, if you want to find out the real cost, it isn't hard to do. You've never dealt with Verizon.
Point me to something on their website showing me what a POTS line with nothing beyond touch tone and local calling will cost, including all fees/"taxes".
This book is kind of old news, no idea why it popped up here today. Here's 36 minutes of examples: »www.npr.org/templates/story/stor···17898418 | |
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| | | | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by sporkme:said by fAcEtIOUs:I have no trouble finding what the "Fees" are before signing up. While marketing in general oversimplifies things for the masses, if you want to find out the real cost, it isn't hard to do. You've never dealt with Verizon. I'm a Verizon customer - both landline and wireless.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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| | | | | sporkmedrop the crantini and move it, sisterPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by fAcEtIOUs:said by sporkme:said by fAcEtIOUs:I have no trouble finding what the "Fees" are before signing up. While marketing in general oversimplifies things for the masses, if you want to find out the real cost, it isn't hard to do. You've never dealt with Verizon. I'm a Verizon customer - both landline and wireless. Awesome, show me all the fees on their website please. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by sporkme:Awesome, show me all the fees on their website please. Fee information is available from many sources - not just their web site. I call the LOCAL office mgr and get what I need. And I call friends who have Verizon service and can give me info from bill. And I can search web sites like BBR and others to gather what info I need. If you want it, you can get it.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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| | | | | | | sporkmedrop the crantini and move it, sisterPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter I'm not just going to trust the "internets" and my home lines do not have an "account manager". Thanks for confirming that this is indeed a scam and that VZ does not publish what the actual price is. | |
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| | | | | | | | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by sporkme:I'm not just going to trust the "internets" and my home lines do not have an "account manager". Thanks for confirming that this is indeed a scam and that VZ does not publish what the actual price is. I confirmed no such thing. I haven't looked thru their web site to find if fees are there, so I couldn't say whether they are there or not.
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Internet News
My BLOG
My Web Page | |
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| | | | | | | | | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by fAcEtIOUs:I confirmed no such thing. I haven't looked thru (sic) their web site to find if fees are there, so I couldn't say whether they are there or not. Then why did you say this:
said by fAcEtIOUs:Fee information is available from many sources - not just their web site. | |
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| | | | | | | | | sporkmedrop the crantini and move it, sisterPremium,MVM
join:2000-07-01
Morristown, NJ Reviews:
·Optimum Online
| Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by moonpuppy:said by fAcEtIOUs:I confirmed no such thing. I haven't looked thru (sic) their web site to find if fees are there, so I couldn't say whether they are there or not. Then why did you say this: said by fAcEtIOUs:Fee information is available from many sources - not just their web site. I still say TK is a retired VZ/Bell Atlantic guy. | |
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| | | | | | | | |  RickezGoinginsane
join:2000-09-02
Three Rivers, MA | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter Wrong. I'm a retired railroad exec. = Thats even worse.... Amtrak? even worse!
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Got a one way ticket, going the wrong way.... | |
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| | | | | | | | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by fAcEtIOUs:Wrong. I'm a retired railroad exec. Back in the day, I believe they called such a person a Robber Baron.  | |
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| | | | | | | | | fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | While I agree with you, strongly, on your take here - as I often do.. the one thing that I would like to see happen is simple..
Taxes are taxes - those that are paid to the government. Everything else is and should be the actual cost of the service or product.
I for one would like to see a truth in ... X act set up.
If there is a fee that is part of every customer's bill in order to provide the service, then it should be in fact part of the monthly price, and not broken out as a 'fee'..
IE: If there is a "global connection charge" at $2.00, and the base internet price is $29.99, then the real price of the internet service SHOULD be $31.99 because that $2.00 'fee' is an actual cost to deliver the service.
On some levels, I agree with the arguments about the fees. In my opinion, take the grocery store and the produce department (and assume there was tax on it).. if they were to say that a cucumber was $0.49 cents each, + tax + $0.30 cent refrigeration fee, the cost to keep it cold is in fact part of the cost of the product.
Basically, what I'm saying is that I have to agree on "fees", those that are not taxes. I agree that a tax needs to be broken out as it should.. but if it's a fee, ie: part of putting the product out, then it should be part of the price and not broken out.
If they were to break out costs, then I'd love to see them break out the actual line item costs.. CSR, outside tech, inside tech, power, insurance, etc. 
I just think that if it's not a tax, then it's part of the product. What say you? | |
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| | | | | | And people think this site is stupid and is a lie ???
»asteriskhunters.com/
*************************************************************************************************************************** UN-FEES **** ASTERISK **********************************
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It is the annoying commercial that has a point.
Wish cable sees the point also. | |
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| | | | | Nice... You take on the weakest point in clickie 's argument instead of addressing his far stronger one, thereby totally re-framing the argument...
I haven't seen a dodge that good in awhile. | |
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1 edit | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter Agreed. | |
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| | | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | People do ask them what the final price is... They have a bad reputation for lying or "being in error..." | |
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| | KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| said by clickie:Or is Laissez-faire capitalism a cute euphemism for thievery? Apparently, yes.
I guess if I walked into a Bank and waved a Gun and demanded money, I wouldn't be a criminal. I'd be a business entrepreneur!
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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| | | | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by DaveDude:Unfees arent right, there should be more honest, but with the conservatives modeling behavior who can blame them. The above, altered, statement is also true... You guys can point fingers at each other when one of the sides actually quits doing what it accuses the other side of doing. Until then, both sides are nothing but hypocrites. | |
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| | |  DaveDudeNo Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
kudos:1
 ·Vonage
·ViaTalk
2 edits | Re: Bob Sullivan - another left wing reporter said by factchecker :said by DaveDude:Unfees arent right, there should be more honest, but with the conservatives modeling behavior who can blame them. The above, altered, statement is also true... You guys can point fingers at each other when one of the sides actually quits doing what it accuses the other side of doing. Until then, both sides are nothing but hypocrites. I dont think you understood my statement, because if you did, then you could see , not reason to alter it. Adding your need to protect, "liberals" proves my point, that liberals are fascists. They dont accept any criticism. Because they are too weak.. | |
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| | | said by fAcEtIOUs:Great - another left wing reporter with a hate on for capitalism. Wow, that statement makes you sound like those African American people who screamed about Cosby talking about the problem of fatherless children...
Instead of actually discussing the content of a valid criticism, you reframe that criticism as something totally different, in this case you call the author a socialist, and totally avoid addressing the valid points presented...
Would you like to try again and actually discuss the issues the author brought up? Or are you so totally blinded by an irrational belief in capitalism that you view any criticism of a system that is light years from perfect as promoting socialism? | |
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| KearnstdElf WizardPremium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | my issue with fees is these are the only services that can legally get away with this.
Blizzard charges me 15/mo for WoW(well really 14.95, but the point is there). i dont see a charge on my credit card with an extra 10-15 dollars in bullshit fees. now of course your communications stuff is taxed but honestly if they say 39.95 on TV then it should only be 39.95+tax. no other business can advertise one price then add their so called business operation fees afterwards.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports | |
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| KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Funny how anyone who stands up for Consumer rights against Corporate interests in pillaging becomes a "Socialist".
Of course, this is nothing new. Back in the day, anyone who stood up against anything a corporation did was labeled a communist, socialist, traitor, anti-American, etc yadda yadda yadda.
Amazing how little some things change.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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 bokambaChengdu RocksPremium
join:2002-04-05
Falls Church, VA | Not "Gotcha Capitalism," just "dishonest" The book's title implies that there's something wrong with our capitalist economy that requires the government to punish all large companies for the sins of some. These hidden fees are either fraudulent, a breach of contract, or completely legal.
The underlying problem is that these telecom companies have been given monopolies by federal, state or local governments. The grocery store doesn't charge you a "supplier surcharge," because if they did, you would buy the same product from a competitor for a lower price. | |
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 yuutomoThe Wonder KitterPremium
join:2001-08-27
Missoula, MT | taxation without representation... they need stricter laws put on them like "can not charge fee unless it is placed upon the isp by the city, state or federal". something to that affect, which would wipe out 100% of the fake fees. I always paid just the amount and the fees they are imposed on by the city, state and federal, and if they said I had to, I asked them to show me the statute that stated that it was a legal fee for them to assess me.
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"The World is but a drop in the sea of time and space, and I am the current that flows through it" -Yuu Tomo(21st)
Basset Rescue of Montana
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| | | Re: taxation without representation... Only Govt's can tax something, if it's a fee it's a fee. | |
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| | yuutomoThe Wonder KitterPremium
join:2001-08-27
Missoula, MT | Re: taxation without representation... yet they have to lie about what they are and claim they are what the goverment is making them charge us, when in fact a good portion of them are not even pertaining to any goverment required fees. I consider that to be a scam, and in most cases worst than any other scam on the internet, because noone is doing anything about it. | |
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 RaptorNot a Dumptruck
join:2001-10-21
London, ON | What a joke.... Not that this is news to anyone, but the FCC/CRTC/etc is a joke, a waste of a gov't body even. These kinds of things should have the hammer brought down upon them within 24 hours of the first customer getting a bogus fee. What world am I living in though....fantasy land!
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....where's my fiber? | |
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 DogfatherPremium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA | It's because gov't is bought and paid for Of course they're not going to curb the telco fraud. | |
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 tiger72SexaT duorPPremium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
kudos:1
 ·T-Mobile US
| Mostly Telcos Just wanted to point out that the leader of hidden fees are telcos. Cable companies frequently keep their fees to a minimum and let them be known in advance. Of course, some companies are better than others on making that information easily accessible.
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|- The LP »www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml -|
|- Cato @ Liberty »www.cato-at-liberty.org -|
|- Ron Paul »www.ronpaul2008.com/ -| | |
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1 edit | Re: Mostly Telcos That is true. Comcast is pretty good about this. Their advertisements are pretty explicit in their introductory prices. They even say flat out X for 12 months. That to me says that after 12 months I am going to be charged the regular price, whatever that may be.
I dunno why some telco companies are afraid of telling their customers about fees and stuff in their advertisements. The majority of telco customers pretty much know that they will be charged fees in one form or another. Anyone who has ever had a land line knows about fees so it's not exactly this new thing that is going on. But then again if I was a company charging my customers an unambiguous vague fee like verizon did then I would probably hide my dishonesty too for fear of losing customers. | |
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axus
join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
| It's fair to require full disclosure We don't have to tolerate lying from businesses. It's not going to hurt the economy to require truth in advertising. Having full disclosure would make the market more competitive and nicer for the average consumer, without harming the businesses required to do it. The easier it is to have perfect competition, the better. | |
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| bokambaChengdu RocksPremium
join:2002-04-05
Falls Church, VA | Re: It's fair to require full disclosure If it were really so obvious and easy to prove that these companies are lying, i.e. committing fraud, why haven't there been a bunch of successful lawsuits against them? (Conspiracy theorists need not apply.)
I'm not saying I enjoy the obfuscation found on a phone bill; I'm just saying that maybe this isn't quite as cut-and-dry as it appears on the surface. | |
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| | Maybe the FTC can step in I, for one, would like to see some government regulation on these junk fees in all the communication industry. Wouldn't the FTC be able to regulate these bogus fees under 'truth in advertising'? I'm not usually for government regulation of industry, but these bogus fees are completely out of hand. Phone companies are the worst about this. My Verizon bill has about $15 added just in taxes and fees. Vonage adds over $9 a month to my $25 bill, and AT&T was just as bad. I have friends that use Insight phone service (now Comcast) and they tell me they pay about $10 extra just in fees. It really infuriates me to see the industry colluding this. Of course if government regulations were introduced, the industries would just bring their high-powered lobbyists to stop them.  | |
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MTUPremium
join:2005-02-15
San Luis Obispo, CA Reviews:
·AT&T Yahoo
| Capitalism What media have you been exposed to that's "liberal"? With the exception of "Air America" and a few PBS shows, the vast majority of US media (TV, radio, print) is owned, marketed, and controlled by the bastions of Capitalism, with interest only their profits and being able to control whomever is in power.
As for 'fascism', the originator of the word, Italian dictator Benito Mussolini, defined 'fascism as being a right-wing collectivistic ideology in opposition to socialism, liberalism, democracy and individualism.'
In essence, put government under the control of big business, because big B knows what's best for you and me.
Unfortunately, 'experts' have since bastardized the words meaning to fit their own agendas. For example, "Islamo-Facists". Ox and a moron.
Fascism in Italy combined elements of corporatism, totalitarianism, nationalism, militarism and anti-Communism. Fascism won support as an alternative to the unpopular liberalism of the time. It also won the support of anti-socialist Italians. | |
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| KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| Re: Capitalism said by MTU:In essence, put government under the control of big business, because big B knows what's best for you and me.
Hmmm. Sounds like what's happening in the USA doesn't it, except we deny it and pretend it's not the case.
The worst combination in the world for abuse is Business Interests and Greed COMBINED with Governmental control and authority. You put those two together and you have a bastard child born in Hell to oppress and enslave.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) | |
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 balazone60 billionPremium
join:2002-04-01
Wheeling, WV | Make your own fee's We should create our own fee's and charge them when we pay our bill.
So our $150 cable bill will have the following-
$5 check writing fee
$2 stamp and envelope cost recovery fee
$10 walk to the mailbox fee
$1 ink recovery fee
And then send in a check for $132  | |
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| Reviews:
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| Re: Make your own fee's LOL Love that idea but unfortunately their TOS agreements forbids the account holder from charging any fees back to the provider. Its always a one way street. They can make any changes and charge any fee they want after providing a 30 day notice to the account holder and you have to guess the method of notification. Upon notification you can terminate your service and pay the ETF or you can bend over and pay the additional fees surcharges rate adjustments or whatever they are calling their additional revenue enhancement scheme that day. These providers keep some good lawyers on retainer to write and revise their TOS agreements and they are living documents and are never what you signed up for originally. Still I'd love to provide some of my own revenue enhancement schems to counter theirs. | |
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 NOCManMacChatterPremium
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO | They advertise and charge 19.95 then Sue them If they advertise to you 19.95 and that's what you're charged and any of those extra fees are not paid to a government agency then get a lawyer and sue them.
Win and get some caselaw going and show it to regulators who will then be forced to do something about it.
Or
Make it an issue in your state who will more than likely listen and try to do something about it.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net | |
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scooper
join:2000-07-11
Youngsville, NC
kudos:2 | best way to deal with it ... Since they arent' "technically" your service - just stop paying all the "unfees" and see how fast they . After all - you paid the bill for your service.... | |
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