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Comments on news posted 2008-02-12 13:02:21: When it comes to the online advertising industry, consumers aren't exactly a trusting bunch. That's understood, given the laundry list of companies that have treated user PCs like a battlefield and used consumer privacy as a punching bag. ..

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B
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1 recommendation

A Joke, Karl?

Surely this is a joke, right? A well researched and well written joke?

ISPs are really going to inflict something like this on their paying customers. I'm sorry. I simply refuse to believe that any organization could be so mind-numbingly greedy and blind to basic human decency. I'm just going to pretend I didn't see this.

-- B
--
In a realm outside causality and function


dadkins
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Ads?

Ads? We no see no stinking ads!


Chris 313
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said by dadkins:

Ads? We no see no stinking ads!
Can we say Adblock Plus?


a non mouse

@mohawkc.on.ca
reply to B

Re: A Joke, Karl?

Welcome to AOL


TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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So now we are all consumers?

BULL! The only way these bums can "target" adverts in such a system is by violating the copyright of the website owner.

To "inject" adds into someones content means altering the content; a clear violation of the publisher's copyright protections.

Bob
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Chiyo
Save Me Konata-Chan
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reply to Chris 313

Re: Ads?

So why do the rates keep rising and rising? This is unfair and the customer doesn't have a say in this.

Many people don't have another option and if they need / want HSI they must go with these greedy ISPs.

Anyone want to start an ISP of VPNs or something? just use my HSI account to tunnel into another network and do what I want with all my privacy intact?

I know severla people will yell "USE TOR" but in my opinion Tor SUCKS too much damn work and slows down my surfing.

wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..

join:2003-07-30
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1 recommendation

reply to Chris 313
Bingo. I will NEVER click them, so I will block them. The net effect to websites who rely on advertising $$ == 0.

cw


JasonD

@comcast.net

No wonder they've got tens of ISP's

interested, it's just what they have been looking for. Clickstream revenue just isn't enough, and this offers network protection from p2p bandwidth surges. The injected ads will be the toughest part, although customers just might be desensitized enough not to notice.


anonymousness

@dtcc.edu

Comcast

5 bucks says comcast is one of the isps


TamaraB
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reply to dadkins

Re: Ads?

Nor do I! However, what NebuAD is going to do, is essentially inject bogus content into legit website content. It will not be possible to differentiate between adverts and legit content.

So if you allow popups from one of your favorite sites, then NebuAD can also raise popup adverts. The same goes with scripting. I allow DSLREPORTS to execute scripts, because I trust DSLREPORTS; must I now trust NebuAD? Or do I disallow DSLREPORTS, greatly diminishing it's value?

The only way around this nonsense is a greater use of TOR and other proxies.

Bob
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FFH5
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1 edit

OptOut creates cookies with faireagle name

If you choose the Opt Out option they provide as seen from this link »www.nebuad.com/privacy/optout.ph ··· tout.php in the story above, it creates 2 cookies:
a.faireagle.com
b.faireagle.com

Whether they actually work or not, who knows.

Also adblock plus, with the Easylist subscription, blocks ads from both nebuad.com and faireagle.com.

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TamaraB
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reply to Chiyo

Re: Ads?

said by Chiyo:

I know severla people will yell "USE TOR" but in my opinion Tor SUCKS too much damn work and slows down my surfing.
Very true. Perhaps what we need is a grass-roots consumer user movement to enhance the tor network. If we all give up just a little bit of bandwidth, we could, as a community of interest, make NebuAd as well as illegal government surveillance irrelevant.

Bob
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Karl Bode
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reply to TamaraB
quote:
Nor do I! However, what NebuAD is going to do, is essentially inject bogus content into legit website content. It will not be possible to differentiate between adverts and legit content.
Technically no that's not what they're doing. They developed a technology for WISPS that was incorrectly used by one Texas ISP.

Their primary focus is behavioral advertising, which yes, has its own problems.


TamaraB
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reply to FFH5

Re: OptOut creates cookies with faireagle name

said by FFH5:

Also adblock plus, with the Easylist subscription, blocks ads from both nebuad.com and faireagle.com.

But the ads won't be coming from nebuad.com or from faireagle.com, they will "appear" to be coming from the site you are surfing.

Bob
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BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Nite-Owl

join:2007-01-11

Two Words!

"Trust Us!" Ugh. When ever anyone ever tells you that, do the exact opposite.

Over the next 5-10 years see a big push in encryption coming. The information in the packets being sent across the internet are no ones business except the sender and receiver.


FFH5
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Here is an interview with Nebuad's CEO

This is an interview from Jan 3, 2008:
»www.clickz.com/showPage.html?pag ··· =3628009
Q. How do you obtain ad inventory and where do you serve the ads?

A. We buy the impressions from the ad networks. We are willing to buy from every ad network. Because of our micro-targeting capability, the CPMs we can charge our advertiser are quite a bit higher [than what networks can charge].

Q. So you're acting as an ad network yourselves.

A. Correct, but we don't want to replace existing ad networks we run on top of. We're not looking to buy directly from publishers. We're more interested in ad networks because they give us the best reach.

Q. Can you name any ad networks you're working with?

A. ValueClick would be a name.

Q. So why not share the names of ISPs you're working with?

A. Customers don't like their vendors talking about them. We are not going to be talking about our ISPs. They are going to be talking about their businesses. We do require them to tell their customers and provide an opt-out.

Q. How do they tell them?

A. They have different ways of doing it. Some say putting a notice in an invoice is the right way. Others believe sending an e-mail is the right way. For some of them, they have a privacy statement that completely covers what we're doing already. In their privacy statements they need to mention that their browsing activities are going to be monitored.
P.S. I did a google search of Comcast's web site at comcast.com and there is no mention of nebuad or faireagle in any of their documents available to the public.
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FFH5
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reply to TamaraB

Re: OptOut creates cookies with faireagle name

said by TamaraB:

said by FFH5:

Also adblock plus, with the Easylist subscription, blocks ads from both nebuad.com and faireagle.com.

But the ads won't be coming from nebuad.com or from faireagle.com, they will "appear" to be coming from the site you are surfing.

Bob
I think you are wrong. Because my adblock plus list of hits lists both of those web domains as showing blocked hits. Unless you can show proof somewhere that says it works as you claim.
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Harold3

@swbell.net

If this really takes off....

Expect web and current advertising firms to bite the bullet in increased CPU time so that everything is SSL encrypted and to restructure sites so that traffic analysis won't work. This would be a slow process ... about as slow as NebuAD uptake would likely be ... but these players, if they will spend the money have it in their power to ensure that ISPs remain providers of "dumb pipes".

Poisoning the well is seldom a good business strategy.


TamaraB
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reply to Karl Bode

Re: Ads?

said by Karl Bode:

Technically no that's not what they're doing......
OK, so here I am surfing DSLR, the article states that NebuAd will "target" ads to me. How is that possible, unless they alter packets to my "established (Cisco-Speak)" connection with DSLR?

Bob
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Sammer

join:2005-12-22
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Another Reason ISPs Should be Dumb Pipes

The more ISPs become interested in things like this and filters that use DPI the more consumers will realize that ISPs really should be dumb pipes.


Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
kudos:43
reply to TamaraB

Re: Ads?

The ads are delivered in much the same way traditional banner ads are now -- the ads themselves are just targeted more specifically to your interests. In other words the DPI hardware should be able to notice you're interested in Hawaii and SUVs as opposed to the Virgin Islands and compact cars, and the ads you see will reflect this.

It's not really ad delivery that's changing, it's anonymized customer surveillance that's evolving. Again, I think there's plenty of problems here too, but NebuAD is not injecting ads over the top of existing content.


Dogfather
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Ad injection is copyright infringement

Ad injection changes the copyrighted content of web pages.

Hope Google and others sue them out of existence.


TamaraB
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reply to FFH5

Re: OptOut creates cookies with faireagle name

said by FFH5:

I think you are wrong.
I certainly hope I am DEAD wrong! But, after reading the article twice, I can't technically grok how this system is to work other than altering packet content.

Because my adblock plus list of hits lists both of those web domains as showing blocked hits.
I don't doubt it. But there are dozens of reasons for this to happen. Is NebuAd active at your ISP? The article intimates this is in the early stage of deployment.

Unless you can show proof somewhere that says it works as you claim.
The only thing I know about NebuAd is what is written in Karl's article. But the mere fact that NebuAd will "inject" ads to me, and that "cookies" will not be used, leads me to surmise there has to be some packet alteration going on. How else can they do what they claim they can do?

Bob
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MagMan
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reply to dadkins

Re: Ads?

said by dadkins:

Ads? We no see no stinking ads!
Agreed defiantly no stinking ads.
--
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TamaraB
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reply to Karl Bode
said by Karl Bode:

The ads are delivered in much the same way traditional banner ads are now -- the ads themselves are just targeted more specifically to your interests.
I understand how my interests are captured. NebuAD is using DPI instead of cookies, that's clear.


It's not really ad delivery that's changing, it's anonymized customer surveillance that's evolving. Again, I think there's plenty of problems here too, but NebuAD is not injecting ads over the top of existing content.
Call me dense (because I often am), but!!! Let's say I run a site, and have contracted with an advert firm (like google's AdSense) to place ads on my site. How can NebuAD control the ad content my users see without becoming a "man in the middle"?? Don't forget, NebuAD contracts with ISPs, not content providers.

Bob
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dadkins
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1 edit
reply to TamaraB

Re: OptOut creates cookies with faireagle name

If they are being injected, they are coming from a different address.
At best, the ad will be seen here once and *I*(if I have to) will blacklist that address.

Once blacklisted, anything coming from that address is not allowed a connection.
I will see a blank area at the most!

See pic...
Opera. Most of these are by default - I didn't put them there!
Several of them I did put in there.

We won't say anything about AdMuncher that is but a click away.
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


dbmaven
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reply to Dogfather

Re: Ad injection is copyright infringement

A general comment to several people who got 'stalled' on the ad inject piece.

Said in the article:

The company is not injecting ads over existing advertising relationships, though there are companies who are.

What part of "not injecting ads" seems to be causing the difficulty??


jgkolt
Premium
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reply to dadkins

Re: Ads?

would it help if we used another dns server besides our default isp's dns servers?
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Dogfather
Premium
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Laguna Hills, CA

4 edits

2 recommendations

reply to dbmaven

Re: Ad injection is copyright infringement

said by dbmaven:

A general comment to several people who got 'stalled' on the ad inject piece.

Said in the article:

The company is not injecting ads over existing advertising relationships, though there are companies who are.

What part of "not injecting ads" seems to be causing the difficulty??
Because it's a total lie. They WERE injecting ads.

quote:
Consumer nerves weren't exactly soothed when reports emerged that in addition to using surveillance hardware to monitor your browsing habits, the company was also involved in an ad injection system that allowed ISPs to insert their own ads into websites (regardless of the existing advertising deals struck between webmaster and other advertisers).
And this

»ISPs Injecting Their Content Into Websites

Nebuad was actively testing ad injection and according to reports WAS IN USE by some small ISPs although now they claim it was an accident. Yeah right.

quote:
Perftech's tool has some similarity to an ad-injecting system being tested by NebuAd, which is now being used by smaller operators like Texas's Redmoon.
They've done it. That fact is not in dispute. Where the ads are placed is irrelevant. The fact that they modify copyrighted HTTP code to inject the ad (so that browsers render the ads) is completely relevant.

Now they're trying to do damage control to prevent the inevitable PR nightmare any ISP (like Rogers) would face if they dare implemented such a system.

»benanderson.net/blog/weblog.php? ··· 20070622

I don't trust anything they now claim.

BosstonesOwn

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reply to B

Re: A Joke, Karl?

said by B:

Surely this is a joke, right? A well researched and well written joke?

ISPs are really going to inflict something like this on their paying customers. I'm sorry. I simply refuse to believe that any organization could be so mind-numbingly greedy and blind to basic human decency. I'm just going to pretend I didn't see this.

-- B
And you think any company wouldn't do this based on what exactly ?

Because of isps becoming so large , YES IM LOOKING AT YOU COMCAST, they think they can do what they want with the content. That includes throttling , faking packets and injecting ads.

Interesting to note one ISP a lot of people use ( I won't mention names ) has more ads on some pages I visit from then from work where they provide us just pipes. But yet my friends on Verizon don't see the same added on ads. Yeah it's freaky and disturbing , but I have learned to just use a anon proxy with ssl.
--
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!"