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Comments on news posted 2008-03-04 10:44:54: A few weeks ago RIAA President Cary Sherman, when he wasn't suggesting that AV software should scan for pirated material, hinted that there would be less piracy if users simply knew what they were doing was illegal. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next


DrModem
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USA
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Funded By Entertainment Industry Lawyers

Rigged? Maybe.

Trustworthy? Probably not.


Morac
Cat god

join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
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2 recommendations

It would work, but not for the reasons given

quote:
hinted that there would be less piracy if users simply knew what they were doing was illegal
I'm pretty sure most people at this point know downloading pirated material is illegal, the same way that people know speeding is illegal. They do both anyway because the gains outweight the risk of being caught.

People would stop downloading pirated material if they knew their ISP was watching them, not because they didn't know what they were doing was illegal, but for the same reason people don't speed in front of cops. At that point, the risk of getting caught way outweighs any possible gains.
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TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
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Da Bronx
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1 recommendation

How would they know?

How can an ISP know that the contents of a data stream is copyrighted material or not? Isn't this sort of impossible to determine? Encrypted packets arriving at some location from diverse sources?

Unless the data was totally intercepted, reconstructed, decrypted, and then compared to a copyrighted source, there is no way to know what the content is.

Bob

--
Motor Vessel - Tamara B.
43' Long-Range Trawler
Cape Elizebeth ME.
See her Here.


FFH5
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ
kudos:5

1 edit

I like France's proposed policy

»arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20 ··· ack.html

The French government is pressing ahead with plans to cut off the Internet access for those caught sharing files via P2P. Under a plan announced last November by President Nicolas Sarkozy, those caught sharing copyrighted content via P2P would have their Internet access cut off under a three-strikes-and-you're-offline scheme.

Jean Berbinau, general secretary of French regulatory body Autorité de Régulation des Mesures Techniques (Regulatory Authority for Technical Measures), said that legislation enacting Sarkozy's plan should be passed by summer.
We should pass a similar law in the US. The UK and Australia are also looking at passing a similar law as well.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

MASantangelo
Premium
join:2004-07-19
Pittstown, NJ

Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Right. Do you honestly think we don't know?

We don't care. Stop charging outrageous prices, forcing DRM down our throats, and giving us sub-par quality audio and video and maybe we'll stop. Maybe.

It's a sad day when I have to watch what CDs I buy just in case it's not usable inside a CD player (I wish I had a link to the article about this, can't seem to dig it up).

It's a sad day when I have to turn to a pirated version of a movie to get one without insinuations that I'm a pirate or that I'm going to pirate it (notice how it's the first thing people remove when they rip a movie).

And it's a VERY sad day when consumers are treated like pirates before doing anything.

It's also sad when companies don't create new material, but instead add on to old material a gajillion times (I'm looking at you Spiderman, with your version 1, 2, etc etc).

Do these justify piracy? No.

Are they part of the reason it exists? Yes.
--
Ramblings Of A Gamer


cableties
Premium
join:2005-01-27

It's factored in their P/L !!!

Please.

This is the classic, passing the buck. Plus, software companies pay into the BSA and SIIA(.net) and that money could be alloted to better programming and reduced software cost.

Instead, they want to police and ostracize the very tech that opened the door for not only piracy (which, btw, has been around for centuries) but also for new business models. Failure of the music industry to be forward thinking is too bad.

And putting filters up is analogous to the Cold War (no one wins but those that profit off the parts and underpinnings).
We, the end-user, foot the bill.

Now, for some coffee...

lesopp

join:2001-06-27
Land O Lakes, FL
reply to FFH5

I don't like France's proposed policy

No we shouldn't. Its too draconian and prone to errors.

What happens when a person mistakenly ends up on the "No Surf List"?


dellsweig
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Campbell Hall, NY
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any wonder

Any wonder why 75% of teens would stop pirating if warned by ISP - Mom and Dad would flip out if such a warning came in and cut off Internet access for the teen - The kid lives for the free internet access - loosing it would be paramount to death


FFH5
Premium
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Tavistock NJ
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reply to lesopp

Re: I don't like France's proposed policy

said by lesopp:

No we shouldn't. Its too draconian and prone to errors.

What happens when a person mistakenly ends up on the "No Surf List"?
Once - maybe a mistake; twice - less chance of an error; three times and you have been caught with very little chance of error.
--
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MyDogHsFleas
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join:2007-08-15
Austin, TX
kudos:5
reply to Morac

Re: It would work, but not for the reasons given

said by Morac:

I'm pretty sure most people at this point know downloading pirated material is illegal, the same way that people know speeding is illegal.
Actually I rather doubt that. There is nothing in the online experience that tells them this. So how would they know?

From personal experience with my family and friends, I know that people are surprised when I tell them that downloading songs and videos for free is illegal and leaves them vulnerable to being sued.

The usual response is something like "Huh? So-and-so told me about this great website, all I had to do was click a few times and it was downloading. It told me I needed to share to get better downloads so I loaded some of my CDs onto it. I bought them, so I can do anything I want with them."

I actually had several arguments with my daughter who was using (I think) LimeWire. She finally took it off but was really angry at me. Then, her friend's sister got sued by the RIAA. When she told me, the look on her face was priceless. She looked at me like, "Wow! My Dad was actually right! And I thought I knew everything!"


Keyboard

@seovec.org

Piracy

Well Looks at microsoft they have an momoply on the software side.Yeah we have free browsers but 8 out of 10 websites will not support them, forcing you to buy Microsoft products. Don't get me wrong yes a small fee should be paid, but, VISTA for instance, why have so many versions ... just to get more of your money for more bells and whistles. If people would stop using the internet to download went back to buying, Then what would the ISP people say? They would whine they weren't making money for the airtime people use. The government allowed the Internet to get to big to quick to start gonverning it now. It all comes back to a statement that say's Human knowledge belongs to the Human's. not to a bunch of proffiteering people. Start lowering prices and it would combat the downloading piracy. A standard DVD cost 20 cents but charge $20-20 dollars for them, how much money do you need?

axus

join:2001-06-18
Washington, DC
Reviews:
·Comcast

DMCA warnings

I think they are pretty effective. I don't know anyone who's recieved one but I had a friend in college who was warned about an FTP site he was running, and he stopped.

Ideally internet copyright violations should be about the level of a speeding ticket. Speeding is something potentially harmful, that doesn't hurt people in most instances, but statistically will lead to more deaths.


woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
reply to FFH5

Re: I don't like France's proposed policy

So the riaa never makes mistakes? Do they ever apologize? So we condemn the whole system because of alleged pirates? the figure that we/I never hear is how many people use the internet/p2p and don't illegally share versus how many use it legally and don't share illegally? the point I am making is that a vast majority of the uses don't file share "illegally" and it would be affecting them equally.Kind of like making people jump through the hoops to own a gun, when that hasn't really reduced "illegal" gun usage one iota. Peace
--
BlooMe


AlexNYC

join:2001-06-02
Edwards, CO
reply to TamaraB

Re: How would they know?

That's the best comment in the entire thread. Think about this, Comcast is trying to block torrent traffic, but are not particularly successful because once the data is encrypted and the default port is changed they don't know what exactly it is. Sure, they suspect and can try to guess but that is not good enough.

zod5000

join:2003-10-21
Victoria, BC
Reviews:
·Shaw

Not effective if users know they'res no punishment.

If users know (and the ISP has said outright) that they are just warning, and that there is no punishment. I don't think they'd be nearly as effective, as if they just started sending them out without ever telling anyone what they were about it.

If people know the letter is full of hot air, it'll get deleted. If people know nothing of these letters, they might get a little scared.


dadkins
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reply to FFH5

Re: I don't like France's proposed policy

What if YOU end up getting chastised for something because of an error?

You send a clip of son/daughter(hypothetically) and it flags you as a Pirate... are you going to be so gung-ho about it then?

That would be *YOUR* Strike One.

Say you blow that off and try it again... Flag #2 - Strike #2... yeah, real good idea, huh?

You inadvertantly forget and send another... BOOT!

Now, my friend, *YOU* are kicked offline and labeled a pirate. Sound tasty?

*NO* ISP should be a cop!
What's next?
Illegal to let you borrow a DVD?
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


FFH5
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said by dadkins:

*NO* ISP should be a cop!
Well then who should be the cop, in your opinion?

Because god knows one is needed, given all the criminals on the internet.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page

SilverSurfer1

join:2007-08-19
said by FFH5:

Well then who should be the cop, in your opinion?

Because god knows one is needed, given all the criminals on the internet.
We need "cops" to patrol the Internet the same way we need law enforcement to patrol Times Square and strip search everyone they stumble across just to "make sure" nobody is carrying/doing anything "illegal."


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

1 recommendation

reply to TamaraB

Re: How would they know?

Not only copyrighted, but how would they know that the transfer wasn't approved by the copyright owners? For example, I used BitTorrent last night to download the first part of Trent Reznor's new album titled Ghost. This is copyrighted music, so should the ISP block it or warn me that I'm engaged in illegal activity?

No, since Trent himself (or at least someone with technical knowledge that Trent employed) put that music on the P2P networks. (See: »NIN Embraces P2P Again, Offers Free Music ) There is no way for an ISP to keep track of which music downloads are approved by the copyright holders and which aren't approved.
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dadkins
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reply to FFH5

Re: I don't like France's proposed policy

Uhm... I can't answer that, can you?
Is Caltrans the cops that write you a ticket for speeding on the roads they build and maintain? No!

Should the ISP that builds and maintains the line you & I use be the cops? No!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


FFH5
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said by dadkins:

Uhm... I can't answer that, can you?
Is Caltrans the cops that write you a ticket for speeding on the roads they build and maintain? No!

Should the ISP that builds and maintains the line you & I use be the cops? No!
NYC, Philadelphia, etc all have their own transit cops and railroads have their own railroad cops(paid by the railroads). Why shouldn't ISPs have their own internet cops?
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

2 recommendations

reply to FFH5
I'm reaching here, but maybe.... the police?

It's their jobs to track down criminals (be they online or offline) and prosecute them.

When it comes to copyright offenses, however, these are civil offenses, not criminal ones. (At least until the MPAA/RIAA push through legislation making them criminal cases.) This means that the copyright holder has to file suit themselves against the copyright violator. Sometimes this takes the form of a John Doe lawsuit until the violator's identity can be determined (or until the copyright holder has proven to a judge that they have enough of a case to pierce the accused's privacy).

The problem is that the RIAA is lazy. They don't want to file their lawsuits separately in the correct jurisdiction. They just want to file a huge batch of them all at once (as if they were related). They don't want to *actually* sue the person, just strong-arm them into a highly one-sided settlement. And they don't want to keep an eye out for copyright violators themselves, they want the ISPs to do their job for them.
--
-Jason Levine
Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar. Shooting For A Cause
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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
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reply to FFH5
Ok, but they themselves are not the cops. See the difference here?

Seeing as it is not the ISPs bitching about the illegal transfers of material(s), then it should not be the ISPs (or you and I) footing the bill for police type services.

Are you willing to have more restrictions applied to your connection *AND* pay more each month so some private company/entity can dictate what the ISPs should do?

Fuck that!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera


Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

1 recommendation

reply to dadkins
I could definitely see this happening.

E-mail a photo to your family whose name raises copyright flags: Strike #1

Tech Support Response: "We're sorry about that. It must have been a false positive. Unfortunately, we're unable to remove strikes, but don't worry, they'll expire on their own soon enough."

Short while later, e-mail a clip of your child singing a nursery rhyme. Raises flags for being an MP3: Strike #2

Tech Support Response: "There definitely isn't a bug in our systems. Are you sure you didn't share anything off of a P2P network? We can't reverse this otherwise all pirates would claim innocence. Just be more careful what you do next time."

Not too long after that, browsing a website triggers an edge case in the filters and you get Strike #3. This time Tech Support immediately, upon seeing your account, sends you over to the ISP's new Copyright Education and Protection division which instructs you that you can have your connectivity back if you take some courses on why copyright protection is essential, sign documents confirming that you are a pirate, and pay a $100 fine.
--
-Jason Levine
Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar. Shooting For A Cause
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theraweness

join:2007-12-14
4906

1 recommendation

Government

The government needs to worry more about closing the borders,health care, and the war just to name a few.


nipseyrussel
Nipsey Russell, yo

join:2002-02-22
Philadelphia, PA

1 recommendation

reply to FFH5

Re: I don't like France's proposed policy

railroads hire transit cops because (a) if they dont their customers are in danger and are less likely to ride -thus they would lose customers and (b) they are protecting the actual physical safety of their customers

with respect to (a) the ISPs stand to lose customers if they police content, and re (b) no one is going to get stabbed or raped in kazaa like they might on the subway.

here we have a situation where most of the ISPs and their customers have no desire to have themselves policed, so let them keep up their dumass lawsuits


TamaraB
Question The Current Paradigm
Premium
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Da Bronx
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reply to AlexNYC

Re: How would they know?


Not to mention the fact, that to reverse-engineer the encryption is in itself a violation of the DCMA.


Jason Levine
Premium
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USA

1 recommendation

reply to nipseyrussel

Re: I don't like France's proposed policy

Not to mention that filtering content opens ISPs up to liability. No filter is going to be 100% perfect. If they block some copyrighted material from being transferred without permission, but don't block others, then they might be sued by the owners of the non-filtered items. If they don't filter at all, they can claim Common Carrier and are shielded from being sued.


scrummie02
Bentley
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Arlington, VA
reply to FFH5

Re: I like France's proposed policy

And who would enforce this, the government? Are you going to use tax money to create a Internet Copyright Infringement Department branch of the government that keeps tabs on users and how they've broken copyright restrictions?
They hand out a "no internet for this person" to all of the ISP's based on what some entertainment company tells them? Of course the RIAA and MPAA have been shown to be more wrong then correct in their lawsuits so far. Blindly enforcing this a piece of legislation this stupid would result in either a lot of people with internet or basically the formation of some sort of government spying program.

Sorry, I'd rather use my tax money elsewhere, not using it to enforce some draconian law because some 16 year old kid wants to download the latest Timbaland a
--
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. " - Thomas Jefferson


yolarry

join:2007-12-29
Creston, WV
reply to theraweness

Re: Government

This is about UK not US.