dslreports logo
site
spacer

spacer
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


view:
topics flat nest 
Comments on news posted 2008-03-24 09:30:54: Users of the Canadian family-run ISP Teksavvy (which we profiled last year) have started noticing that Bell Canada is throttling traffic before it reaches wholesale partners. ..

page: 1 · 2 · 3 · next


hairspring

join:2007-11-23
Oakville, ON

For a brief moment

I pictures Bell with both hands on Teksavvy's neck.

I think its a fair analogy.

nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD

ain't lack of competition grand?

just think, if there were real competition, we wouldn't get to experience any of this!


NG

@rogers.com

not a shared service

But I thought Bell sold the service based on the fact it's not a shared connection (like cable) so why would they have to throttle?


PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY
kudos:1

teksavvy

Too bad they aren't reselling broadband here in the states


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
reply to hairspring

Re: For a brief moment

said by hairspring:

I pictures Bell with both hands on Teksavvy's neck.
It is probably more like a headlock; since that would leave a free hand for Bell to grab one's wallet.
--
...A bitter ray of sunshine

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to NG

Re: not a shared service

Because DSL is shared at some point. All internet is shared at some point along the line. Cable is just shared out farther in the field than DSL. DSL is shared at each DSLAM. Thats the thing that DSL lovers/ravers forget- it may be dedicated from the CO to your house/business but it doesnt mean its dedicated all the way to the Internet or passed the equipment.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to PhoenixDown

Re: teksavvy

Won't happen. the US Telcos do not want the linesharing/reselling and have basically killed it.

I havent figured out why use a reseller though when you can go direct to the actual ISP and get the same service- usually cheaper. I don't see the need for all the fluff if you don't need it; like ISP email and webspace.


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23

1 recommendation

Because it's not reselling. Under the CRTC's model, Bell is used for the coppper, the DSLAM (what your DSL modem talks to), and the ATM network to get you to your ISP. From there, you're on your own ISP's network, using their upstream providers and peers. Some ISPs colocate their own DSLAMs in COs, in which case they're only using the dumb copper.

This is why they're called wholesellers and not resellers; they're relying on Bell for the last mile, but using their own networks for actual internet connectivity. The result is TekSavvy can sell 200GB/mth for $30/mth while Bell charges something like $42 (last I checked) for 30GB/mth.

Now, TekSavvy themselves have many resellers, and I don't understand why somebody would want to go with one of them; they really are just resellers. Might as well go with TekSavvy directly.


sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:13
reply to hottboiinnc
Unfortunately in this case, you CAN'T get it cheaper with the Bell and you definitely get a LOT more fluff with Bell.


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
reply to hottboiinnc
said by hottboiinnc:

I havent figured out why use a reseller though when you can go direct to the actual ISP and get the same service- usually cheaper. I don't see the need for all the fluff if you don't need it; like ISP email and webspace.
Well you will be horribly disappointed with Bell, they are more expensive then whole/resellers, and have outsourced email services to Hotmail. Yes, they still do have a web space, a whopping 5 megs worth, but you must wade through technical support (which has also been outsourced) to get it running!
--
...A bitter ray of sunshine


Xanet

@teksavvy.com
reply to Guspaz
"TekSavvy themselves have many resellers, and I don't understand why somebody would want to go with one of them;"

Because my clients trust me and appreciate the services that I provide. They also appreciate the fact that I've introduced them to the great service and cost savings that TekSavvy offers and want me to be paid for my efforts... and so does TekSavvy.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to NG

Re: not a shared service

said by NG :

But I thought Bell sold the service based on the fact it's not a shared connection (like cable) so why would they have to throttle?
Normal large-scale networks aren't built to handle 100% end-point load routing capacity in everywhich direction. The only difference between cable and ADSL is the point at which the sharing and over-subscribing begins. With cable, it starts right on the coax and this makes the shared nature plain obvious. With ADSL, sharing begins at the DSLAM's ATM backplane. Beyond this point, both technologies become very similar.

The whole internet is an oversubscribed shared network that would not be able to handle every internet user simultaneously going at full speed.

Simply look at TSI: their traffic peaks are currently around 2.5Gbps. With an overall average of about 50GB/subscriber/month which is less than 1/4 of what is possible at 1Mbps, TSI would need over 20Gbps of total transit capacity to provide non-blocking full-speed for everybody assuming an average sync speed of 2.5Mbps. But for the time being, everybody east-side is happy with TSI's current 3xGbE links to Bell-land... modulo Bell's new wholesale throttling.

backness

join:2005-07-08
K2P OW2

Open message to Bell

Don't mess with my data!

I can't believe how mad this makes me!

This has to be the pinnacle of incompetence and mismanagement!

So that it's clear, Bell resells a service, most likely under contract, then when they realize that they would have to spend money to keep their paying customer happy (in this case Teksavvy) they instead decided to traffic shape an ISP!!! Also, its been stated in these forums before that Bell actually makes more money on the resellers! So, they take a profit center for the company and turn it into a big question mark.

Bell, please put your red rubber nose back one and big floppy shoes. Your talking beaver's aren't fooling anybody.


ShadPTR

join:2008-01-23
Markham, ON

For God's Sake

I thought I was rid of them.. now the b-stards are at it again.

hottboiinnc
ME

join:2003-10-15
Cleveland, OH
reply to Thane_Bitter

Re: teksavvy

why use ISP email? why use their webspace? most people (especially on here just bitch about ISP email anyway). Why not just get a domain and have it hosted at Gmail Apps.

Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.


mlerner
Premium
join:2000-11-25
Nepean, ON
kudos:5
said by hottboiinnc:

Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.
Except that when I need to use tech support, for instance when my line is down or I am having problems with email I would like to get good support, so that if it's an issue with my ISP it doesn't take 20 calls to figure it out!


root9

join:2005-04-08
Kitchener, ON

4 edits

1 recommendation

The Full Picture; not just throttling or capping.

In short:
The ROTHSCHILD, Rockefeller, Morgan, Bush, Kissinger, Harper and many others are trying to provide information only of what they want. This means the same kind of censorship as China or worse. Any news that's against them will be treated as treason and punishable by prison or death as soon as or if SPP [Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America] comes into play.

This is not a fight against throttling/capping/shaping. It is a fight for our rights and what we can or can't communicate. The latest is that USA Telcos, big business and media have been attacking Canadian ISP's, Government and businesses with everything they have to "choke our freedom of speech" and sharing of information.

Back in Rogers startup days, the 80's and 90's, we had same problems. Any high bandwidth was choked, throttled [HTTP, FTP, large emails, encrypted protocols], blocked or discontinued [newsgroups]. We dug into why. It seems that old man Rogers is related to House of Windsor. Also highly connected to "Committee of 300".

These families want to control ALL content, such as TV, satellite, news, media, movies and even flyers that you may pass on in your neighborhood. The Internet has been a real pain to them since information flows quickly. They want to make the population dumb and disconnected from each other.

No, I'm not kidding. Do your own research. Find out who owns all large media companies and what their plans are. Find out what WTO [World Trade Organization] has planned. Find out how PM Harper is being controlled by USA, UK, Germany and others.

Good places to start:
Find videos and watch of EndGame - Blueprint For Global Enslavement, George Green - The Big Picture, Loose Change 2nd Edition, Wake up America - Dr. John Coleman, Zeitgeist and anything related as you find it. All these are available on Google video or as P2P downloads. Get them before they become blocked. Pass them on to your friends as well and learn.
And the best one of all:
»www.libertyforum.org/showflat.ph ··· 93835340

In speaking with Worldcom / UUNET and Maxihosting it's been said that there's enough Black Fiber [unused fiber just sitting there ready for use] and all households could have 15 Mbps downloads and 7 Mbps uploads with all Canadian users on at same time all day long without need of throttling what-so-ever! Black fiber is being saved for WWW2 and big business use.

All negative things said here about not being able to provide speeds are false! The only visible problem is that all major Canadian ISP's have not repaired the last mile copper to homes and small businesses. The people that will have HDTV and movies on demand will loose out on Internet services due to only so much being able to come across copper wire. Add phone or other services and I guarantee you will be stuck in browsing and email only mode very soon.

What you can do to stop throttling: Complain and complain continuously [daily basis] to

CRTC »www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/welcome.htm ,
Competition Bureau »www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/epic ··· /en/Home ,
Local MP's, PM's of all provinces:
mpremier@gov.ab.ca
premier@gov.bc.ca
premier@leg.gov.mb.ca
Premier@gnb.ca
premier@gov.nl.ca
floyd_roland@gov.nt.ca
premier@gov.ns.ca
rwjghiz@gov.pe.ca
premier@gov.sk.ca
dennis.fentie@gov.yk.ca
compbureau@cb-bc.gc.ca
info@ccts-cprst.ca
infomgs@mgs.gov.on.ca
ccbbb@canadiancouncilbbb.ca
»www.premier.gov.on.ca/feedback/f ··· back.asp
»www.premier.gouv.qc.ca/premier-m ··· en.shtml
Honourable Jim Prentice CorrespondenceMinister@ic.gc.ca
... EXPOSE THEM at least.

Charge / invoice your ISP for lost bandwidth, time out of your day, for infringing of your privacy laws and connection speeds [small business rates are around 30 to 60 per hour].
i.e. any packet that's being throttled needs to be opened. This is illegal in Canada since each packet is like a piece of snail mail, private. No Canadian ISP has the search warrant or authority to open or block any packet below what you pay for. Sending a reset packet is also illegal since it's telling both parties they don't exist when they actually do.

The control freaks have declared war on you and the general population, do something!

Senior Network and Systems Analyst

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1

legal

How is this possible? This is as legal as traffic shaping a Point to Point T1 line. As far as I understand/know (Im a american) the pair goes into the Teksavvy or its wholesaler's DSLAM, then onto Teksavvy's ATM or SONET or MPLS lines which are rented from BC. How can BC touch the ATM/SONET/MPLS lines? Don't the five nines just get invalidated since the line isn't spiting out what when into it anymore?

patcat88

join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
kudos:1
reply to Guspaz

Re: teksavvy

Are the lines from the wholesalers BC circuit or packet switched?


nekkidtruth
YISMM
Premium
join:2002-05-20
London, ON
kudos:2
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·Rogers Hi-Speed

2 edits
reply to mlerner
said by mlerner:

said by hottboiinnc:

Just because Roger's has outsourced their email too; to Yahoo!. It's cheaper to outsource something than it is to do something else. But as far as Tech Support why use it if your line works fine? No need to use it.
Except that when I need to use tech support, for instance when my line is down or I am having problems with email I would like to get good support, so that if it's an issue with my ISP it doesn't take 20 calls to figure it out!
What is this good support you speak of? I know of very few ISP's who actually assist their customers well. In fact, I worked technical support for 2 different ISP's and nine times out of ten we're told to send them to a third-party such as Microsoft or Eudora etc. It's very rare that an ISP will admit to having difficulties with their mail servers, and even MORE rare for them to actually fix any issues with their mail servers.
--
Weeeeeee


Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to patcat88
Telus has a packet-switched network, but it doesn't matter; DSL works directly over the raw copper wire. From there, it's just a question of how it's backhauled to the ISP's PoP. I believe Bell uses L2TP over ATM.

zinc
Premium
join:2004-02-17
Kitchener, ON
reply to patcat88

Re: legal

It's not actually Teksavvy's ATM lines.

DSL user -> incumbent/wholesaler's DSLAM (e.g. Bell) -> Bell's ATM/ethernet/mpls/whatever network -> demarc point -> Teksavvy's 3x GbE -> Teksavvy's network

The throttling is being done within Bell's network, the question that's unknown is whether they're intentionally throttling Teksavvy clients, somehow based on protocol, or if their network is simply overloaded and throttling everyone.

AFAIK, Teksavvy has an SLO for network performance, so it's quite possible Bell is breaking that completely. As Rocky mentioned, "wait for Tuesday" when they actually have a meeting with Bell and figure out what's happening.

Personally, I'm speculating that they're throttling based on a user's usage pattern (e.g. constant max rate) because their trunk lines are overloaded, and possibly prioritizing their business clients' traffic above others.


Taylortbb
Premium
join:2007-02-18
Kitchener, ON
reply to nekkidtruth

Re: teksavvy

You're right, it is very rare. That's why TekSavvy has such a loyal following. Their support is excellent, you talk to people that know what they're doing and aren't reading from a script. They also admit when they're having problems and say what the problem is and how long till its resolved.

SlickNetAaro
Premium
join:2008-01-19
Minneapolis, MN
reply to hottboiinnc
said by hottboiinnc:

Won't happen. the US Telcos do not want the linesharing/reselling and have basically killed it.

Funny, we have probably 100 ISPs to choose from in Minneapolis Qwest territory. A few providers also have their own DSLAMs for better reach or speed.


JunkieXL1

join:2004-11-15
Canada!

Not just TSI

I think it's just not TekSavvy. I heard a couple of other wholesalers/resellers were being throttled too - Velcom may be? Someone please clarify.


Em Adespoton

@allstream.net
reply to Taylortbb

Re: teksavvy

If you're tech savvy yourself, just run a traceroute to figure out where your connection stops, then run a traceroute from the outside (via a friendly wireless access point or something) to see where the problem is from the outside. Then call tech support with these two IP addresses and any telltale information their reverse DNS lookup gives you, and tell the person on the other end that you've noticed network issues between the two points and would like to talk to someone knowledgeable regarding their current network issues.

Using this trick always gets me escalated within minutes to someone who actually knows what they're talking about -- they often think I'm a wholesaler who somehow called in on the wrong line. Generally the answers are something along the line of "Bob currently has router X offline in building Y -- the failover to carrier X's network doesn't seem to be kicking in. When Bill gets there with the new hardware (should be an hour or so), we'll have more information)."

Sure beats "Try restarting your computer again while closing one eye and kissing your modem" that you get at the lower levels.


en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
reply to hottboiinnc
Are you kidding me ?
DSL-Extreme, Sonic, Speakeasy, just to name a few are resellers of DSL, using their own network, but AT&T/VZ/Covad/Qwest for the last mile.
--
Canada = Hollywood North


Froggy

@teksavvy.com

Great country eh?

Gee, i thought Russia was bad. My perception of that country has done a complete 360.

SnakeSkin

join:2007-08-17
Scarborough, ON

Bell Canada Throttles Wholesalers

Great country eh?? First we had the northern peso when the dollar dove to 62 cents US. Now we've put Russia to shame with policies more communist than anything seen there. My god!! If Comcast is being sued in America over a simple traffic shaping of upload speed what bell is doing should amount to a capital offence up here.


anonomous

@comcast.net

Sounds

like BELL Canada isn't much different from the Bells here in the U.S. ! Always trying to screwover the consumer. And Man! Those caps seem pretty small ! Only 50 Gigabytes! Why do all the Canadian ISP have all those caps and bandwidth limits?