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Comments on news posted 2008-05-16 12:58:38: Earlier this week I noted that Charter has started selling user browsing activity to NebuAD, a behavioral advertising firm I profiled in February. ..


Anonymous88
Premium Member
join:2004-06-01
IA

1 edit

Anonymous88

Premium Member

Opt in

They need to make this opt in so people would decide if this is really something they need. If it is, enough people will opt in.

Of course we all know this is just a load of crap and if this was opt in based there would be no NebuAD and the likes.

If you use Ad Muncher or Ad Blocker, do these ads get blocked too?
ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO

ender7074

Member

Re: Opt in

Yes but the revenue stream wouldn't be anywere near forcing it on all their customers. Thats what this is all about, generating $$$ for a company that is sinking.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

1 edit

1 recommendation

FFH5 to Anonymous88

Premium Member

to Anonymous88
said by Anonymous88:

They need to make this opt in so people would decide if this is really something they need. If it is, enough people will opt in.

Of course we all know this is just a load of crap and if this was opt in based there would be no NebuAD and the likes.

If you use Ad Muncher or Ad Blocker, do these ads get blocked too?
Two Congressmen agree with you:

»2 Congressmen THREATEN Charter

EDIT: P.S.> ad blockers block these ads too. But they don't stop collection of your browsing habits.

smellsfishy
@conversent.net

smellsfishy to Anonymous88

Anon

to Anonymous88
Ad blockers will block the ads but they won't stop Charter from sniffing your packets. Opting out won't stop the data collection. All opting out will do is stop Charter's ad swapping.

Anonymous88
Premium Member
join:2004-06-01
IA

Anonymous88

Premium Member

Re: Opt in

hey Charter can't sniff my packets!

I am not a Charter customer.

swhx7
Premium Member
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia

2 recommendations

swhx7 to Anonymous88

Premium Member

to Anonymous88
They will put something in the non-negotiable "Terms of service" saying that customers agree to it by using the service. Then they will have so-called "consent" to satisfy any law. Only the words change; the reality remains the same.

The only way an ISP can get away with this is by lack of competition in the local market - no other comparable broadband, or at most one other choice in the area (cable and telco).

Whenever someone says it should be left for the free market to resolve an issue to do with internet in USA, remember that when customers have to accept something they hate in order to get broadband internet, the market has already failed. The root of the problem is that the service providers own the "last mile" connections to the customers. Whenever such a "natural monopoly" is allowed to be in private hands, it must be heavily regulated for protection of the public.
ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO

ender7074

Member

Charter executives are a pack of idiots

For the years I worked for the company, this was the level of intelligence we experienced out of the high level execs. Those idiots would come in with a horrible idea, try to sugar coat it, and force it down the employee's and customer's throats. The idiot with the idea would implement it, get fired, and walk with millions in their little severence packages written into their contracts. It seems that the cycle continues over there.
Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium Member
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO

Corydon

Premium Member

Re: Charter executives are a pack of idiots

Here's what I don't get. As discussion yesterday prompted me to go through Comcast's financials a bit more carefully to find out whether their web portal either turns a profit or is a drag on the bottom line (short answer: it's not entirely clear, but it probably turns a small profit). Link.

I know Charter's in trouble and everything, but honestly, I can't see how pissing off all of their customers like this will make a big difference to the company's bottom line.

If you're an MSO, the overwhelming majority of your income comes from the monthly charges for TV, Internet, and (now) VoIP. Ad revenue is like a little icing on the cake.

I guess it's a sign of just how desperate they are that they'll leap at any opportunity to add a little to the bottom line, no matter how half-baked the idea is.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Charter executives are a pack of idiots

said by Corydon:

I guess it's a sign of just how desperate they are that they'll leap at any opportunity to add a little to the bottom line, no matter how half-baked the idea is.
I wouldn't call the idea half-baked considering a majority of consumers don't understand or care what's going on. While Charter's financial situation isn't as strong as many other companies, I doubt they're doing this out of desperation. Obviously, everything is on the table that generates revenue, is within legal acceptability, and customers tolerate. I think you'll see many other ISPs begin similar practices.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

1 edit

Karl Bode to Corydon

News Guy

to Corydon
quote:
I guess it's a sign of just how desperate they are that they'll leap at any opportunity to add a little to the bottom line, no matter how half-baked the idea is.
I'd bet that within two years, DNS Redirection ads and behavioral advertising are employed by every major ISP.
Corydon
Cultivant son jardin
Premium Member
join:2008-02-18
Denver, CO

Corydon

Premium Member

Re: Charter executives are a pack of idiots

I guess it's just really galling to me that we're being sold down the river for something that in the grand scheme of things is not all that much of a moneymaker for these ISPs.

Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02

Karl Bode

News Guy

Re: Charter executives are a pack of idiots

Honestly, all I care about is that it's made completely transparent to the user with a working way to opt-out if they're interested.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords

MVM

Re: Charter executives are a pack of idiots

said by Karl Bode:

Honestly, all I care about is that it's made completely transparent to the user with a working way to opt-out if they're interested.
I can't draw the line there, Karl. The ISP is given the trust of its subscribers. You do you banking there. You file your taxes there. You exchange email with your lawyer there. You search Google to figure out ways to hide the bodies.

The Internet becomes quite a trivial invention indeed if you can't trust your service provider. Anything that puts the ISP at odds with that trust is a conflict of interest.
caco
Premium Member
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

caco

Premium Member

Maybe?

If this causes targeted ad to pop up by selling this information than I guess he could argue that it would speed up browsing if points you to something you are looking for. Might help 1 in 5000 subs more or less. Not a very strong argument though. They should have just said, we are selling your information to bring down our outlandish debt.
Alphy
join:2001-12-31
Troy, MI

Alphy

Member

Almost done with BBR

Every day, another depressing story.

I think I might give up reading BBR/spend less time on the internet. I went to the library today and picked this up. Seems to be a good read so far

»www.amazon.com/Corporate ··· 7&sr=8-1

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

Re: Almost done with BBR

how about taking some action instead?
Alphy
join:2001-12-31
Troy, MI

Alphy

Member

Re: Almost done with BBR

What course of action do you think needs to occur in order for the industry to complete relent on practices such as this/DRM

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

2 edits

FFH5

Premium Member

2 Congressmen THREATEN Charter

said by Alphy:

What course of action do you think needs to occur in order for the industry to complete relent on practices such as this/DRM
2 Congressmen have an idea. They have threatened Charter:

»www.news.com/8301-13578_ ··· 1_3-0-20
Two prominent members of the U.S. Congress are asking Charter Communications to hold off on its plan to monitor its customers' Web browsing and deliver relevant advertisements.

In a letter to Charter chief executive Neil Smit, Reps. Ed Markey and Joe Barton say the monitoring plan may violate federal privacy laws and ask that the company "not move forward" until "we have an opportunity to discuss" it. Markey is the Democratic chairman of a House Internet subcommittee and Barton is the senior Republican on the House Energy and Commerce committee.

Charter did not immediately respond on Friday to our questions about whether it would delay its monitoring-and-advertising plans as a result of the letter. Although Markey and Barton have no legal authority to order a halt, they could make life difficult for Charter by convening hearings and lambasting the company for alleged privacy violations.

In other words, they argue that an opt-in mechanism is necessary instead of an opt-out one.

That section of federal law, 47 USC 551, says: "A cable operator shall not use the cable system to collect personally identifiable information concerning any subscriber without the prior written or electronic consent of the subscriber concerned." Charter has sent notices to customers who may be affected once the trial period begins, but a mere notification (that may never be seen) may not amount to actual consent.

Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
Premium Member
join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC

Jahntassa to Alphy

Premium Member

to Alphy
This just in! Nothing new.
NP - The latest news has arrived! Everything is going great in the world, and little Annie Miller just got her new puppy. The family was very excited for her.

"We're just thrilled for Annie, she always wanted a puppy," says Mother Deborah.
Sorry, just trying to give you something non-depressing.

Jameson
Premium Member
join:2004-05-28
united state

Jameson to Alphy

Premium Member

to Alphy
said by Alphy:

Every day, another depressing story.

I think I might give up reading BBR/spend less time on the internet. I went to the library today and picked this up. Seems to be a good read so far

»www.amazon.com/Corporate ··· 7&sr=8-1
Bye. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
Alphy
join:2001-12-31
Troy, MI

Alphy

Member

Re: Almost done with BBR

»i.dslr.net/pics_cache/11 ··· 812d.jpg

lol. Keep holding down the internet fort.

Jameson
Premium Member
join:2004-05-28
united state

Jameson

Premium Member

Re: Almost done with BBR

Don't worry, I will.

CrazyFingers
join:2003-10-01
Columbia, MO

CrazyFingers

Member

They'll need to modify Hijack This...

To show "You are a Charter Internet Customer" on the first line.
Everything after that is irrelevant.
Cleanup procedure is a pain in the ass too.

BabyBear
Keep wise ...with Nite-Owl
join:2007-01-11

BabyBear

Member

Kudos!

Wow, Ted Schremp has some 'mad' typing skills to be able to see what he's typing while having his head so far up his ass!

Anything to make a buck eh, Ted?
expert007
join:2006-01-10
Buffalo, NY

expert007

Member

Cynic Detector is Going Off.....beep beep beep

Does anyone else find the cynicism here on BBR as humorous as I do? Its quite understandable, but funny as hell sometimes.
CanadianIron
join:2006-10-08
Beverly Hills, CA

CanadianIron

Member

Proof? Surveys? Talking out of ass?

I'd like to see the results of the independent surveys that were done showing how much the customers really want this "feature".

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5

Premium Member

Schremp blowing smoke; he should have said this

When asked why consumers don't see lower prices if their browsing history is generating additional revenue, Schremp had this to say:

(Customers) appreciate the notion that ads that are being served are attuned to their interests or potential interests. We view it the same way as offering faster Internet speeds. This is no different. It's about taking the latest technology and applying it as a way to be useful to our customers.
What he should have said:
"The ad revenue helps offset growing costs and subsequently keeps prices from rising faster than they normally would."

And the idea that customers get money back from ad revenue is absurd on its face and only suggested by people who can't think clearly.

braynes
Premium Member
join:2005-03-14
Waterville, ME

braynes

Premium Member

Re: Schremp blowing smoke; he should have said this

Hello
If some store says L.L. bean had someone follow you around in the store and recorded everything you look at and then sell this to any and all comers to call, mail and email you, would you consider this right?

Why is this a way to “offset growing costs” for who the stockholders, the asshole that came up with it?
Bruce
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

1 recommendation

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Schremp blowing smoke; he should have said this

said by braynes:

Why is this a way to “offset growing costs” for who the stockholders, the asshole that came up with it?
Offsetting growing costs is a good thing and helps minimize service cost increases. Stockholders don't really care either way as long as the bottom line continues to grow at a decent rate. The "asshole" that came up with the idea will most likely receive a decent bonus if enough revenue is generated.

Sounds like a win all around except for the few people that are whining about their "privacy" being invaded.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords

MVM

Re: Schremp blowing smoke; he should have said this

said by openbox9:

Sounds like a win all around except for the few people that are whining about their "privacy" being invaded.
...he said, posting under a psuedonym...
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

1 edit

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Schremp blowing smoke; he should have said this

My name is Dave. Have fun.

Edit: I'll even complete that with my last name....Emery. Have fun again.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

funchords

MVM

Re: Schremp blowing smoke; he should have said this

said by openbox9:

My name is Dave. Have fun.

Edit: I'll even complete that with my last name....Emery. Have fun again.
+5 for being a good sport!

NOCMan
MadMacHatter
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO

1 recommendation

NOCMan

Premium Member

Theft of service and legitimate revenues for site operators

This is stealing revenue from legitimate website operators. Why are they allowed to overwrite ad's displayed from a site such as CNN or bloggers who display AdSense ad's to maintain some stream of revenue from their sites.

It is also a security issue. If they overwrite ad's that my bank displays through the SSL connection they could degrade the security of my bank connection or at least introduce SSL errors that will confuse normal people as to what's going on. Not to mention how do I know that these 3rd party companies are doing adequate monitoring of ad's inserted into webpages. I've seen plenty of companies who go home on the weekend and then people start injecting viruses and porn ad's into the ad streams and we could not get it fixed until Monday. We eventually dropped the company, but it's still an issue that website operators have to deal with.

Also there is no such thing as "anonymous" user data. If you look at it there's a time date stamp and a ip address. So now law enforcement will have more ways to track people down or worse homeland security will use it to monitor people.

If this becomes widespread some big website will notice their money drying up and will take these guys to court. It would be no different than putting up a billboard that blocked another billboard completely off from view.

••••••

morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000

morbo

Member

charter....ugh

someone please put charter out of its misery.
Expand your moderator at work
SilverSurfer1
join:2007-08-19

SilverSurfer1

Member

Ahhhh

Just so we're clear: Charter is taking your browsing activity data and selling it to a third party for profit. They're then suggesting that doing so is an "enhanced online experience" (the phrase used in their e-mail to customers) on par with offering you faster connection speeds. Does insulting customer intelligence cost extra?
Karl Karl Karl. I do enjoy reading your acerbic wit.

•••
Walter Dnes
join:2008-01-27
Thornhill, ON

Walter Dnes

Member

Pollute their browsing-history database

We have to be realistic about attacking this practice.
- Some ISPs are sleazy, and will do this as long as there's someone willing to pay for them to do it
- The people doing the paying will only do so as long as they get information that's financially useful to them
- The best angle of attack is to pollute the browsing-history databases to the point of uselessness, so that nobody is willing to pay for the info.

»www.antiphorm.com/page_s ··· ware.htm has a pseudo browser to browse sites in the background that you wouldn't normally bother with. E.g. while you're out walking the dog, have it browse the web for cat food and wheelchair supplies. Currently only available for Windows, but they are working on Mac, Linux, and Mobile versions.
Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL

Mr Matt

Member

Who is going to protect the children

Before gathering data from a person, it is the responsibility of the ISP to determine if the person that they are gathering information from is over 13 years of age. How do the ISP's intend to do that. Furthermore when multiple users connect to the internet via a shared broadband connection how will the organization sharing up the ad's know they are directing the ad to the correct person.

funchords
Hello
MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA

1 edit

funchords

MVM

Re: Who is going to protect the children

said by Mr Matt:

Before gathering data from a person, it is the responsibility of the ISP to determine if the person that they are gathering information from is over 13 years of age.
You're speaking of COPPA and it only applies to Personally identifiable information (PII). The hostnames of the websites you visit aren't PII, however some websites display PII and some HTML forms use the "GET" method which embeds the answers to form inputs into the URL. While such collection might be innocent and incidental, it would be collection of PII none-the-less. Interesting thought!
said by Mr Matt:

Furthermore when multiple users connect to the internet via a shared broadband connection how will the organization sharing up the ad's know they are directing the ad to the correct person.
They wouldn't know if it was Dad, Mom, or Preteen at the keyboard -- but this problem is no different than currently exists with today's ad systems.

I think services like DoubleClick face both of the above problems, so I'm not sure either problem you mention makes a precedent. The first one is by far the most interesting possibility.

Dryvlyne
Far Beyond Driven
Premium Member
join:2004-08-30
Newark, OH

Dryvlyne

Premium Member

Will someone plz sue them!

It's crap like this that reinforces my belief that some day the Internet will split with one being run solely by corporate interests and another being run "underground" by so called hackers.

As for this particular story, I'm begging someone here that has half a conscious, the money and the resources to sue the sh!t out Charter before this practice becomes commonplace. My ISP can kiss my a$$ if they think they can take my data, sell it for profit and then offer me nothing in return except "more attuned advertising". I'd rather stop using the Internet period before these damn corporate interests can shaft me even deeper than they already are.
wombatclov
join:2002-10-16
Easthampton, MA

wombatclov

Member

Massachusetts is Questioning it....

»www.wwlp.com/global/stor ··· =8338875

I hope Smit reconsiders.
Core0000
Premium Member
join:2008-05-04
Somerset, KY

Core0000

Premium Member

Nani?

..."Were selling your browsing activity, it's generating additional income for us, and btw even though we are not lowering prices, or offering better service, this helps you!" /sarcasm

Right...

I remember Charter when they were in my area.. they had horrible service... I now know why. Because with crazy thinking like the above "half quote" your not going to have good business sense.

JesTX
@myvzw.com

JesTX

Anon

Why they call it an "enhanced service"

They have to call it an "enhanced online experience" because the law mandates opt-in provisions for all programs merely intended to increase corporate revenue. As long as they can convince customers, the press, and lawmakers that an honest business enhancement is taking place, they do not have to obtain written or electronic signatures from their customers to wiretap them.

Anyone with a shred of technical knowledge knows that this program is more likely to negatively impact service and speeds than enhance anything, but if Charter can convince even a few of us otherwise, they'll have a platform of ignorance upon which to develop such illegal revenue-increasing programs, and all that's lost is the privacy of their entire subscriber base.