 | | Illegal? Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action?
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It's a trick. Get an axe. - Ash | |
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 |  Morac
join:2001-08-30
Riverside, NJ
kudos:1
 ·Comcast
1 edit | Re: Illegal? said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? Yes, what Media Defender did (and is still doing) was illegal, but it's amazing what you can get away when your clients (**IA) are throwing money at Congress.
Realistically criminal proceedings should be opened against Media Defender at this point. Barring that I hope Revision3 sues Media Defender into bankruptcy, but with the **IA and their bottomless pockets backing Media Defender somehow i doubt that will happen. Someone on Slashdot also suggested that even if Media Defender goes under, the parent corp that owns it can just open shop under another company name with business as usual. | |
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| | | Revision3 has asked the FBI to investigate.
IMHO, Revision3 should sue Media Defender, if only to prove a point that this behavior must stop. | |
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| |  ChiyoSave Me Konata-ChanPremium
join:2003-02-20
Charlotte, NC
kudos:1 | Re: Illegal? said by ISurfTooMuch:Revision3 has asked the FBI to investigate. IMHO, Revision3 should sue Media Defender, if only to prove a point that this behavior must stop. +1 | |
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| | | | said by ISurfTooMuch:Revision3 has asked the FBI to investigate. IMHO, Revision3 should sue Media Defender, if only to prove a point that this behavior must stop. IIRC, in a previous article, the Revision3 CEO said they wouldn't sue because they couldn't afford the legal costs. Very unfortunate. | |
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| | | | | Re: Illegal? said by digitalfreak:said by ISurfTooMuch:Revision3 has asked the FBI to investigate. IMHO, Revision3 should sue Media Defender, if only to prove a point that this behavior must stop. IIRC, in a previous article, the Revision3 CEO said they wouldn't sue because they couldn't afford the legal costs. Very unfortunate.
If the FBI brings a case against Media Defender, and especially if the the government wins, then it will be much easier for Revision3 to bring a private lawsuit. I'm not holding my breath... | |
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| |  bear73Metnav... Fly The Unfriendly SkiesPremium
join:2001-06-09
Grand Forks Afb, ND | said by ISurfTooMuch:Revision3 has asked the FBI to investigate. IMHO, Revision3 should sue Media Defender, if only to prove a point that this behavior must stop. +1 +1
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| | | said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong.
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| |  MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Illegal? said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong. Trying to establish 8000 new sessions a SECOND is a DDoS, whether they meant to or not. Claiming ignorance is no excuse. Media Defender can claim whatever they want, but I'm sure this was completely intentional behavior that they KNEW would take the smaller trackers offline if the trackers found a way to block them.
Kind of like my girlfriend dropping a grenade in CoD4 after I killed her - only Media Defender's grenade was 9Gbps of bandwidth and hundreds of servers pumping out 8000 SYN requests per second. | |
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| Re: Illegal? said by Matt:Trying to establish 8000 new sessions a SECOND is a DDoS Minor nitpick but I don't know as if I'd call that a 'DDoS'. DDoS == distributed denial of service attack and is typically something that is launched with thousands of different hosts on hundreds of different networks, usually using owned systems (via a botnet).
What Media Defender did definitely qualifies as a DoS but I'd question whether or not the usage of the term 'DDoS' is accurate here. | |
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| | | | | | Re: Illegal? said by Crookshanks:said by Matt:Trying to establish 8000 new sessions a SECOND is a DDoS Minor nitpick but I don't know as if I'd call that a 'DDoS'. DDoS == distributed denial of service attack and is typically something that is launched with thousands of different hosts on hundreds of different networks, usually using owned systems (via a botnet). What Media Defender did definitely qualifies as a DoS but I'd question whether or not the usage of the term 'DDoS' is accurate here. "The company, with 2,000 servers and 9Gbps of dedicated bandwidth at their disposal"
Sounds like a DDOS to me. May not have been distributed amongst many different networks, but it was many different computers within a high-speed network. | |
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| | | | |  dnoyeBFerrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI | Re: Illegal? I think its resonable to assume it was distributed. Otherwise 2000 computers are not getting out of the same network pipe without DOSsing themselves. | |
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| | | | | | | | Re: Illegal? Actually, MD has a staggeringly huge pipe. All the servers were likely at their location, not distributed. | |
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| | | | | | | i consider a DoS attack to be a DDoS attack when the packets come from computers that are distributed over a large area, not (from the sounds of it) a server farm. i don't know all the little details but based on "The company, with 2,000 servers and 9Gbps of dedicated bandwidth at their disposal" and that all the packets originated from a small set of IP addresses (maybe one???), but i wouldn't consider that a DDoS attack. i'm guessing the reason for all the servers (assuming they were in a server farm) was to be able to ensure the entire bandwidth of the connection (9 Gbps) could be saturated. | |
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| | | | | |  james
join:2001-02-26
CWCville USA | Re: Illegal? said by cornelius785:i consider a DoS attack to be a DDoS attack when the packets come from computers that are distributed over a large area, not (from the sounds of it) a server farm. You can't just make up definitions for commonly used terms and then expect everyone to go along with you.
The distributed refers to not being a single computer attack, physical location is irrelevant. | |
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| | | | | | |  funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | Re: Illegal? said by james:said by cornelius785:i consider a DoS attack to be a DDoS attack when the packets come from computers that are distributed over a large area, not (from the sounds of it) a server farm. You can't just make up definitions for commonly used terms and then expect everyone to go along with you. The distributed refers to not being a single computer attack, physical location is irrelevant. Whatever. I don't disagree with you, but whatever. We're arguing over semantics while agreeing on what happened.
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HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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| | | | | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | said by Necronomikro:"The company, with 2,000 servers and 9Gbps of dedicated bandwidth at their disposal" Sounds like a DDOS to me. May not have been distributed amongst many different networks, but it was many different computers within a high-speed network. According to the logs that I saw, two IPTABLES entries would have solved it. It sounds like they made a last-minute change on a Friday and left town for the weekend. MediaDefender's buggy scripts went nuts.
This was "amateur hour" on both MediaDefenders and Revision3's accounts. That said, MediaDefender was the inflicter of damage and was the primary cause of this accident.
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Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...
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| | | | | | MattAll noise, no signal.Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
kudos:12 | Re: Illegal? said by funchords:said by Necronomikro:"The company, with 2,000 servers and 9Gbps of dedicated bandwidth at their disposal" Sounds like a DDOS to me. May not have been distributed amongst many different networks, but it was many different computers within a high-speed network. According to the logs that I saw, two IPTABLES entries would have solved it. It sounds like they made a last-minute change on a Friday and left town for the weekend. MediaDefender's buggy scripts went nuts. This was "amateur hour" on both MediaDefenders and Revision3's accounts. That said, MediaDefender was the inflicter of damage and was the primary cause of this accident. Doesn't matter what you do with iptables if you're sitting on a 100Mbps, or even 1Gbps port, and you have 9Gbps of traffic coming at you. | |
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| | | | | | | openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Re: Illegal? I doubt that MD was utilizing all 9 Gbps to flood Revision3. I haven't seen the logs that funchords  is referring to, but iptables or PF, or pick your packet filter can be quite effective against rudimentary DoS attacks. | |
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| | | | | | | funchordsHelloPremium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:5 | very true | |
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| | | | | | said by Crookshanks:said by Matt:Trying to establish 8000 new sessions a SECOND is a DDoS Minor nitpick but I don't know as if I'd call that a 'DDoS'. DDoS == distributed denial of service attack and is typically something that is launched with thousands of different hosts on hundreds of different networks, usually using owned systems (via a botnet). What Media Defender did definitely qualifies as a DoS but I'd question whether or not the usage of the term 'DDoS' is accurate here. I'd be inclined to agree. Swap distributed for directed and it becomes exactly what MD planned. | |
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| |  OmegaDisplaced OhioanPremium
join:2002-07-30
Cheyenne, WY | said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong. So you support media defender inserting fake files into legal torrents? | |
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| | | | Following that logic, if someone's gun was to go off accidentally and dispatch you from this earthly vail of tears, the shooter should get a pass because it was an accident???? | |
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| | |  nixenRockin' the BoxenPremium
join:2002-10-04
Alexandria, VA | Re: Illegal? said by Austinloop:Following that logic, if someone's gun was to go off accidentally and dispatch you from this earthly vail of tears, the shooter should get a pass because it was an accident???? Well, it would be the difference between a murder charge and a manslaughter charge...
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. -- Bertrand Russell | |
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| | | | | | Re: Illegal? Agreed, but T.K. is apparently indicating that MD should get a pass on any repercussions because they didn't mean to do a DDOS/DOS attack, their equipment was just set wrong. Yeah Right!!!!! | |
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| | | | | | | Re: Illegal? said by Austinloop:Agreed, but T.K. is apparently indicating that MD should get a pass on any repercussions because they didn't mean to do a DDOS/DOS attack, their equipment was just set wrong. Yeah Right!!!!! I don't speak for TK, as he is capable of speaking for himself, but I'd like to know where he said the company should get a free pass.
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"I sincerely believe the banking institutions having the issuing power of money are more dangerous to liberty than standing armies." Thomas Jefferson | |
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| | | | dnoyeBFerrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI | It could also be the difference between manslaughter and negligent homicide. Considering, one has no business with his gun pointed at your nugget in the first place.
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dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16
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| | | | said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong. Says who? You? Your source for this is what? Media Defender? Have you no shame?
8000 connection attempts PER SECOND. Let me repeat that so it might sink in: 8000 CONNECTION ATTEMPTS PER SECOND. That is 8 connection attempts per millisecond. Care to posit what kind of hardware and software resources are needed to send SYN packets at that rate? Tell you what: if a clueful cop caught you or me with software that was intended to work in that manner, he or she would, at the very minimum, make us his or her long-term hobby and our lives something of a living hell.
No, I really guess you don't have any shame, if you are gonna come around peddling that. | |
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| |  MchartFirst There.
join:2004-01-21
Gurnee, IL | said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong. I don't think you realize the scope of what really happened. To create that large amount of traffic one would either have to be in control of a large botnet, or have a server-farm connected to a fairly large SONET link. Regardless if it was planned or not, it is a classic case of denial of service, and considering how large and aggressive it was - it likely was planned. | |
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| | | | said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. I'm guessing hackers should start using that one as a defense. | |
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| |  yockTFTCPremium
join:2000-11-21
Miamisburg, OH
kudos:3 | said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong. They should have to live with the side-effects of their system configuration just like anyone else. That many packets per second is nowhere close to being reasonable, and their systems architect would know it.
It's either gross negligence, or intentional tort. | |
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| | | | said by fAcEtIOUs:said by footballdude:Aren't DDOS attacks illegal? If they admit doing it, shouldn't there be legal action? had their systems set to automatically bombarded the closed tracker with 8,000 SYN packets a second The systems weren't SET to create a DDos. That was a side affect of an attempt to reach a resource that was taken offline. Should MD been monitoring their system better? No doubt about it. But the characterization that they PLANNED a DDos is wrong. You can spin it anyway you want but Media Defender has enough of a history to show this was not an accident. If they released this type of code without testing it, it would be like leaving a loaded gun on a street full of children. | |
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| kcblackPremium
join:2000-09-11
Chicago, IL | I think they are terrorists.
Call homeland security, call the nsa, call the fbi! | |
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| | | what they did WAS illegal, but if you read the story on mediadefender, you'll see all the friendly calls made from the attorney general to mediadefender.. | |
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| | | if you read about the mediadefender emails, you'll see the DA (or AG i forgot which) had friendly conversations with mediadefender.. so, it probably won't be him prosecuting his friends.. | |
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|  quibblyPremium
join:2003-02-07
Sugar Land, TX | I provide computer security services for many large companies and this is a prime example of a DDOS.
8000 SYN packets / second? Pretty insane in my books.
I'm not surprise Federal charges are not being presented, especially since there are a couple of violations under code 18 USC 1030 : »www.techlawjournal.com/cong106/s···1030.htm | |
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 PenguinsHave You Played Atari Today?
join:2001-12-01
Cleveland, OH | Corporate Crime They will get sued, and they will settle. Both parties will sign a NDA and it will be forgotten about.
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Pure magic in 2k of 6502. | |
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| | Good Question [...]what would have happened if Revision3 had "been an airport using BitTorrent to distribute approaches to the runaway?"
Media Defender wouldn't give 2 shits about it and nothing further would be said because we all know that IP enforcement takes precedence over human life.
/sarcasm | |
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|  en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Good Question I agree... Media Defender hasn't taken all scenarios (or many ) into account.
On the flip side... what kind of runway would use BitTorrent to distribute approaches, let alone a public network.
I do agree that any DDOS attack against any a company would hold them liable for any harm that it caused though.
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
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| |  KoolMoeAw ManPremium
join:2001-02-14
Annapolis, MD
1 edit | Re: Good Question I think bitTorrent is a great way to distribute large files. As long as folks have always-on connections and no (or large) caps - which doesn't seem to be much longer, distributed distribution (!) is a great idea.
(of course, as an analogy, not as an actual use for airports, which I imagine was the original point)
KM | |
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| |  What a moronic analogy
what would have happened if Revision3 had "been an airport using BitTorrent to distribute approaches to the runaway?" What a moronic analogy. Like an airport approach control system would use bittorrent to manage a REALTIME process like landing airplanes. The CEO of Revision3 is REALLY reaching there to make his case.
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See 20 replies to this post |
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| | I guess 2 wrongs do make a right! I guess 2 wrongs do make a right! | |
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 yuutomoThe Wonder KitterPremium
join:2001-08-27
Missoula, MT | Why... hasn't Revision3 filed criminal charges against MediDefender? | |
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|  RallyBah HumbugPremium
join:2000-10-27
Astoria, NY | Re: Why... Gotta love when the suppose 'good guys' go down the illegal highway. | |
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| | | I don't think a company or private individual can file criminal charges - it takes a district attorney. Nevertheless, MediaDefender could care less about the law - why should they? they know they will never be prosecuted. | |
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| | | They are in contact with the FBI, who is investigating. Criminal charges would come at a later point for something like this. | |
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| | That is pure BS 8000 Syn packets a second even with a lot of servers is absurd, someone please correct me if I am wrong but the only way that can be done is deliberately. Supposedly they have 2000 servers in total, but that's to combat a lot of different places, therefore only a fraction would've been used in the R3 case. Syn have to wait for a reply, If there is no reply like they said (since the tracker was down) then it should've waiting for as long as the timeout, but in any case it means that it shows that it was most likely not an "accident".
I wonder if there's anyone out there who would be willing to do the lawsuit for them with no money up front in exchange for a percentage of the money in case they settle or win. Or maybe just someone like piratebay trying to get even from getting hit themselves as was shown in their leaked emails. | |
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| What the f... How in the freaking world do companies like media defender get around the law and do a DoS attack on ANYONE in the name of piracy and not get busted for it? Illegal is Illegal no mater what you want to say to twist why you did it... I cant go and shoot someone I think is a murder and get away with it... | |
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| MchartFirst There.
join:2004-01-21
Gurnee, IL | Re: What the f... said by neufuse:How in the freaking world do companies like media defender get around the law and do a DoS attack on ANYONE in the name of piracy and not get busted for it? Illegal is Illegal no mater what you want to say to twist why you did it... I cant go and shoot someone I think is a murder and get away with it... Yes you can. As long as you have the money and some popularity behind you. You can even rape small boys if you like. Just make sure you can pay off them lawyers. | |
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| |  fuziwuziNot born yesterdayPremium
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA | Re: What the f... said by Mchart:said by neufuse:How in the freaking world do companies like media defender get around the law and do a DoS attack on ANYONE in the name of piracy and not get busted for it? Illegal is Illegal no mater what you want to say to twist why you did it... I cant go and shoot someone I think is a murder and get away with it... Yes you can. As long as you have the money and some popularity behind you. You can even rape small boys if you like. Just make sure you can pay off them lawyers. Don't even need money or lawyers, just call yourself a priest.  | |
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| | | In my world, we find the persons responsible...and shoot them dead. Simple and inexpensive justice  | |
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|  knightmbEverybody Lies
join:2003-12-01
Franklin, TN | Re: Can I get an Explanation? said by megatron266:Can somebody draw a picture of how powerful 2000 servers are on a 9Gbs dedicated line is? Also, How would MD like it if the people decided to unite and attack them with a DoS? Is this even possible? How could law-enforcement allow this vigilante group to continue? They need to be shut down. Their are others ways to stop piracy if they would just think a little more than DoS attacks. Yes, working on just such a script actually 
You'll see it in my signature soon enough. 
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 DataDocMy avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC | Quit arguing over whose analogy is more stupid. Media Defender set a trap, Revision3 tripped it by fixng their system, and got nailed. Media Defender admits they did it, it caused damage and they should pay.
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|  a333A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
 ·Cingular Wireless
| Re: Quit arguing over whose analogy is more stupid. LAWLZ, I can almost see an entirely new e-warfare coming up sometime in the next decade... **AA's versus people like us. Each side will pump out botnets faster than you can say 'piracy'...
It's gunna be one fun century... now buckle up and get ready for the bumpy ride ahead. | |
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| | How's THIS for hypocracy? Go to the MediaDefender site and you'll discover that THEY use p2p for client file distribution. | |
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| | | Re: How's THIS for hypocracy? hahahahahaha | |
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 cho0b
join:2006-09-26
united state | Required Topic 8GBPS is nothing. RFIs are scary easy to find these days.
Yes, Media Defender did a bad bad thing. No, nothing will be done about it. As previously stated, there is too much money being thrown at all the right people for Media Defender to go down.
I wouldn't worry about any of this, though. Soon enough the corporations and people that run them will be on the receiving end of a revolutionary sandwich. It will be delicious. | |
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The problem is Club Gov.
Back in the 50's the term used to describe the record labels paying off DJ's to play records more frequently, so the recordings would move to the top of the charts was called payola. There were congressional hearings about same and the careers of several DJ's were ruined as a result of the negative publicity.
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