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Forums » Bell Canada Offers 'Proof' Throttling Was Necessary
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Comments on news posted 2008-06-24 18:19:35: Bell Canada recently decided it would be a good idea to throttle P2P traffic before it hit independent wholesale ISP networks, without telling anyone about it. ..

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Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:

1 edit
i can just type an bunch of numbers



Jahntassa
What, I can have feathers
Premium
join:2006-04-14
Conway, SC

Which numbers are relevant?

Okay, so they separated the numbers by where the congestion happened on what part of the networks. Is there anything besides the DSLAM that would affect the independents?

They show it as a percentage of connections that are congested, but without a base number that doesn't really help. 5% of what? 10? 20? 1,000?

I guess I can see the congestion on the one part of the network, but doesn't that suggest that they should work on, perhaps, expanding that part of their network?

Also, did they throttle themselves?


james

join:2001-02-26
antarctica
reply to Anonymous_
Re: i can just type an bunch on numbers

ME TOO!

12ST
16PE
09EN
18CH
08IN
08AG
18LU

Wait! That's not my line's stats! That's my Fallout char's stats!


james

join:2001-02-26
antarctica
I figured it out

I know what happened, they mixed their percentages of congested lines up with their percentages of satisfied customers.


stoopid

@photothera.com
 Can I get a dictionary....

How is "Congestion" defined? Dropped packets, 100% capacity or some new marketing term to sell this BS?

cooldude9919

join:2000-05-29
Cape Girardeau, MO
clubs:
Graphs

Real "network traffic engineers" would have supplied mrtg graphs with some sort of description for each link.


Capt Cap

@sonnet.com

This is Telco's equivalent to Cable node overload

The %'s are significant, because they are congestion on ATM ports. ATM doesn't mean money; it is a telco protocol similar to IP that does not deal well with congestion. A 1500-byte TCP/IP packet might be split into 32 53-byte(48-byte payload) ATM cells.. Losing one cell means the other 31 cells are toast, even if they are delivered.

What this effort by Bell Canada shows is that the changing utilization rates of DSL customers vs. the backhaul bandwidth to DSLAMS is putting the squeeze on Bell and they want to curtail it, rather than try to keep up with it. Keeping up with it means higher wholesale DSL line charges, or higher costs for ISPs backhaul circuits to connect to the DSLAMs.

As you might recall, British Telecom has been screeching about the same thing because of BBC iPlayer.

Say hello to metering!


TKJunkMail
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reply to cooldude9919
Re: Graphs

said by cooldude9919 See Profile :

Real "network traffic engineers" would have supplied mrtg graphs with some sort of description for each link.
The data they are supplying is going to convince politicians and bureaucrats and not other network engineers.
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baineschile1

@comcast.net

throttle me for saying it...

heres the biggest problem i see with ISP throttling; yes they shouldnt do it, yes its wrong for them to advertise unlimited access when it is limited, but...most bittorrent throttle was....PIRATED MATERIAL!!! it stinks for the people who use it for legit reasons, but for us to complain that i had packet loss when downloading Iron Man...its tough to complain.


NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX

It's Clear

Bell Canada was selling a product and failed to deliver on it.

I'm sure those ISP's who bought lines wholesale had SLA agreements and I'm sure BC violated it. I could not for the life of me think that a corportion would oversubscribe the services they sell to their customers.

Oh wait.. Sprint Frame Relay.
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sbrook
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join:2001-12-14
H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed

Host:
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Bell Canada
reply to baineschile1
Re: throttle me for saying it...

That's not the point. It's the thin edge of the wedge. What will they decide to throttle with absolutely no technical basis? You're on Comcast ... so say they throttle traffic that originates from a Qwest, Verizon, Charter IP address whether business level or not. Say they have an agreement with MSN (which Bell does), so say they decide to throttle Yahoo! content provisions.

There are thousands of other non-net neutral scenarios that can lead from this.

Telcos throttling VoIP

It's the ISP telling you what they want to you to do with the internet connection.

The matter of pirated material is another one altogether and should be dealt with in its own arena ... not this one where the focus is net neutrality.

ivan69

join:2004-01-30
99999
reply to NOCMan
Re: It's Clear

You forgot TWC.


espaeth
Digital Plumber
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join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
reply to NOCMan
Every carrier out there oversubscribes their Frame / ATM / MPLS clouds. What's your point?


NetAdmin
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Graphs

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

The data they are supplying is going to convince politicians and bureaucrats and not other network engineers.
Yeah, but everybody loves graphs, especially technically clueless politicos and bureaucrats... As well, graphs usually make information easier to read. Their percentages, for example, are pretty vague and the fact that they say that it depends on how you look at it just confirms that they are overly vague and presented that way on purpose. Concrete information should be presented.
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Guspaz
Guspaz
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join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet

reply to NOCMan
Re: It's Clear

Nope, Bell doesn't do SLAs for wholesale dedicated connections. They have some sort of best-effort agreement (don't recall what they call it offhand I think the word "goals" was in there) where Bell says what they hope to provide, but has no obligation to provide. So essentially, they have nothing.

Of course, since wholesale DSL service is heavily regulated in Canada, the question is did Bell violate the regulations. Everybody but Bell says yes, and it will be up to the CRTC to decide.


TKJunkMail
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2 edits
 Low % congestion #'s could still indicate problem though

As can be observed in the table above, the total percentage of all four types of congested network links during a given month in the period in question has varied between 2.6% and 5.2%. While these numbers may seem low to the average lay person, they are significant to network traffic engineers such that it is important to consider the number of congested links in the proper context.
Those numbers are relevant in the context of interactive traffic. Also the percentages can be additive as a packet traverses different sections of the network. They are no problem if we are talking about batch file transfers.

see: »www.usenix.org/events/lisa00/ful···dex.html
Congestion and Circuit Capacity Planning

Like many organizations, we collect router statistics via SNMP every five minutes. While five-minute averages are a useful measure of how a circuit is doing in relationship to its bandwidth limit, they do not tell a lot about the instantaneous (one second, or smaller, time scale) state of a circuit that governs interactive performance. If a circuit is saturated for several ten-second bursts during a single five-minute period the average utilization might appear to be quite reasonable. An interactive user, however, would likely say that the network was slow while his packets were waiting in a router buffer.
Since Bell of Canada was using 15 min snapshots and not even the inadequate 5 min snapshots, the low percentages could still mean that congestion is occurring and that interactive traffic is suffering.

It would be interesting to know if Bell also took shorter snapshots(say every second for short periods of time) to get a finer look at suspected congested links, thereby determining if interactive traffic had unusually high latency. Without that kind of data, the supplied stats aren't very persuasive.

But they are probably just supplying what the CRTC demanded and nothing more. Bell's network engineers would have performed other studies with shorter snapshot periods for their own use and the info they supplied to the CRTC also provided latency measurements(another measure of congestion).

This graph that Bell supplied the CRTC was much better at indicating the growing problem than the chart headlined in the BBR story:


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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
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reply to NetAdmin
Re: Graphs

said by NetAdmin See Profile :

are pretty vague and the fact that they say that it depends on how you look at it just confirms that they are overly vague and presented that way on purpose. Concrete information should be presented.
Um if they presented concrete information, they'd lose their argument that they must throttle 3rd party ISP's.
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Maggs
Premium
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Woodside, NY
·RCN CABLE

No Network Engineer will touch this!

Karl, you know people need a job. If you want your job, you tow the line, and STFU and obey your master. That's why they call common law employment, a master servant relationship. I know for damn sure you wouldn't badmouth BBR, since you would be out of a job in a heartbeat.
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espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
Summarizing data until it means nothing...

I'm sure there's good data they can present, but this certainly isn't it. x% of their links were congested -- when? One day in the month for 5 minutes? Every day for 12 hours a day?


KrK
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reply to TKJunkMail
Re: Low % congestion #'s could still indicate problem though

Bell's trying to win the argument that they are justified in throttling their competition's last mile customers.

They aren't, but if they lose the argument they will have to remove the throttling, so they are going to present evidence skewed any which way they feel they need.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)
Forums » Bell Canada Offers 'Proof' Throttling Was Necessarypage: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4


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