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Comments on news posted 2008-07-15 12:31:12: A good rule of thumb: when someone claims the Internet is facing bandwidth armageddon, it's usually because they're in the business of designing and selling traffic shaping hardware, trying to justify new and frequently unjustifiable broadband pricin.. ..

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dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast


1 edit

Upload congestion?

Hmmm... Comcast CRAN - redundant 10G to the headend.
Pretty sure that is a symmetrical 10G... both of them.
So, I can have 16+mbps down and 2mbps up - where is the rest of all the upload getting chewed up at?

The problem lies with the technology(so I'm told) - not the capacity.
So stop with the horseshit, Quitcha Bitchin!
Simple math indicates that I should be able to light up my upstream with TONS of headend room to spare.

NOTE: Currently, I can, and do, get all of my connections provisioned speeds - all times of the day.
If that offends anyone - sorry!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

espaeth
Digital Plumber
Premium,MVM
join:2001-04-21
Minneapolis, MN
·voip.ms
·Vitelity VOIP
·Callcentric
·VoiceStick
·ViaTalk
·Comcast
·Embarq

Re: Upload congestion?

said by dadkins See Profile :

Hmmm... Comcast CRAN - redundant 10G to the headend.
Pretty sure that is a symmetrical 10G... both of them.
So, I can have 16+mbps down and 2mbps up - where is the rest of all the upload getting chewed up at?
It's getting chewed up by RF interference and the need to control upstream broadcast transmit intervals.

On the downstream it's one transmitter, multi-receiver. The CMTS transmits downstream constantly with no need to pause, the cable modems grab whatever frames are theirs off the wire and life is happy. The CMTS can only listen to one modem at a time, however, so that's where mechanisms like TDMA divide out bandwidth timeslots that each modem can request to transmit up. Multi-speaker / single-listener is a more complicated problem to solve, and one of the principle reasons that upstream capacity is limited.

Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
·Cox HSI
·Verizon FIOS
·Cox VOIP
·ViaTalk
·RoadRunner Cable
·MegaPath
·Verizon west (ex G..
·Time Warner VOIP

Comcast's upload crunch (and certainly not all markets are seeing it) is only between the node and headend and is caused by channel saturation. As they continue to deploy SDV, work on ditching analog and other ideas that save significant bandwidth, they can dedicate more channels to HSI and with DOCSIS 3 bond those channels for speeds to the end user far exceeding what customers are willing to buy (as evidenced by Verizon selling mainly low tier FiOS).

The bandwidth crush is a myth. Some use it to try and sell hardware while others use it as justification for draconian network management with the real goal being to squash emerging video competitors.
20217732

join:2008-07-16
Hi everyone,

Bandwidth is infinite so is natural resource
RogerADSL

join:2004-12-10
Lawrenceville, GA
·Comcast
·AT&T Southeast

Re: Upload congestion?

said by 20217732 See Profile :

Hi everyone,

Bandwidth is infinite so is natural resource
Step away from the bong please....you have had enough!

Jerm

join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA

OMG...

Bandwidth is scarce... quick someone reboot the huge master Linksys like I saw on TV!

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA
·Comcast

Re: OMG...

said by Jerm See Profile :

Bandwidth is scarce... quick someone reboot the huge master Linksys like I saw on TV!
LMAO!
--
Think outside the Fox... Opera

RobP

join:2008-03-30
Brantford, ON

Re: OMG...

Awesome!

Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:
:P

dadkins
Can you do Blu?
Premium,MVM
join:2003-09-26
Hercules, CA

1 edit
Dupe

antdude
A Ninja Ant
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-25

said by Jerm See Profile :

Bandwidth is scarce... quick someone reboot the huge master Linksys like I saw on TV!
Full episode (legal and if you are in the country): »www.southparkstudios.com/guide/1206/ ...
--
Ant @ »antfarm.ma.cx and »aqfl.net. Please do not IM/e-mail me for technical support. Use the forum! Disclaimer: The views expressed in this posting are mine, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer

Pizz
Hi

join:2000-10-27
Astoria, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable

Is it that hard

To boot the 'heavy' users, who some how cause mass congestion on various cable networks? Why do they keep these type of users, if they're causing all these problems.

I've said it in many other posts, the cable co's had ample time to prepare/install/configure a network, that would handle all the loads/users. But for some reason, they just kept on taking in all those profits, while technology was passing them by.

it's all just a sham.

S_engineer

join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
·Comcast

Re: Is it that hard

said by Pizz See Profile :

I've said it in many other posts, the cable co's had ample time to prepare/install/configure a network, that would handle all the loads/users. But for some reason, they just kept on taking in all those profits, while technology was passing them by.

it's all just a sham.
Well in Comcraps case, you're partially right; they've had ample time to build their networks. But unfortunately, they're at the mercy of their shareholders. Since they're at $18.50 now, I can't see a big infusion of cash for their infrastucture any time soon!

How Comcraptic

Pizz
Hi

join:2000-10-27
Astoria, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
·RoadRunner Cable

Re: Is it that hard

said by S_engineer See Profile :

said by Pizz See Profile :

I've said it in many other posts, the cable co's had ample time to prepare/install/configure a network, that would handle all the loads/users. But for some reason, they just kept on taking in all those profits, while technology was passing them by.

it's all just a sham.
Well in Comcraps case, you're partially right; they've had ample time to build their networks. But unfortunately, they're at the mercy of their shareholders. Since they're at $18.50 now, I can't see a big infusion of cash for their infrastucture any time soon!

How Comcraptic
Yes they're always at the fate of their shareholders! But they also could fix this underlying issue very easily, the problem is. Do they want to spend the type of money Verizon has with its FIOS product.
EPS

join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA
The Roberts family controls the voting stock of Comcast, doesn't it? Or was that arrangement changed?

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

Well if you are a cable monopoly it wouldn't be smart to boot someone for not breaking any advertised or pre-defined rule. Banning someone from the only source of broadband in their town for breaking a rule such as "Using enough bandwidth to adversely effect the network is prohibited", is just asking to be sued and to lose.
If they quietly throttle the speeds they still get the customer's money and the odds of him suing are much lower since he still can do all the legal things he enjoys and knows you are the only ISP he has. And if he did sue, it is very hard for him to prove you are throttling.

ib50MbSoon
Formerly TwoKDialup
Premium
join:2002-06-07
Coloma, MI

Re: Is it that hard

P2P software effectively turns your pc into a public server.

Like it or not, Comcast's TOS explicitly prohibits public servers.

Is that so hard to understand?
--
Comcast has spoiled me rotten!

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Re: Is it that hard

That's sad..
DSL-Extreme specifically allows public servers, with the exception of an open mail relay.
--
Canada = Hollywood North
zipjay

join:2003-03-11
Louisville, KY
until you turn off sharing, then its not

insomniac84

join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN

p2p isn't really a public server. Otherwise uploading anything to someone else is the same as a public server. And most services you run have some kind of registration, making them not public, but private. Even if the registration is simply providing a username when you login, the service is now privatized. Would a webserver with a password be a public server? If so that TOS is basically hogwash.
lvlorpheus

join:2008-02-17
Eureka Springs, AR


1 edit
said by Pizz See Profile :

To boot the 'heavy' users, who some how cause mass congestion on various cable networks? Why do they keep these type of users, if they're causing all these problems.
Come on people have got to be able to see the answer to this question. 1.) Boot the (small number) of heavy users (that can cripple a network ) and the problem is solved. No reason for anything to change. 2.) Complain about the (small number) of heavy user (that can cripple a network ) and cap everyone coupled with a price increase. BIG MONEY FOR DOING LESS. Which path do you think they will try to sell to end users. All the while using one of the oldest tactics to get what they want no mater how evil or wrong it is. Convince the majority of the people to hate and despise a minority of the people all the while pumping up the majority as being better than the minority (who is labeled as taking or harming the majority in some way.)

The big ISP's are banking on this tactic working so they can charge each and everyone of us more for less. If they get this to work they will leave it in place as long as they can charging as many generations more for less until people are willing to see "a house divided is doomed to fail." If any of you can not see it, we the end users are the house. Is it to much to hope we will not be manipulated into things like this? Remember if we let AT&T buy Bellsouth it will be better for the customer. AT&T is now talking about caps. Could someone explain to me how these customers getting less than they get now is going to be better for them?

Does that answer your question as to why they keep those users? They can charge more for less if they divide the people.

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

Don't Fear The Bandwidth Apocalypse

But ... fear is such a good selling tool.
Its been used to sell just about anything you can think of (Insurance comes to mind... as does war).
--
Canada = Hollywood North
viperlmw
Premium
join:2005-01-25
·Qwest.net

A word on QOS and prioritization

From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"

I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep.
lordofwhee

join:2007-10-21
Everett, WA

Re: A word on QOS and prioritization

I've taken to running my bit torrent at night when I'm sleeping so I can stand to use my connection, but I'd be totally OK with Comcast throttling (not RESETTING) my uploads during peak hours (or even non-peak hours, if to a lesser extent).

However, forging RST packets I am NOT OK with, as it undermines the basis of TCP/IP.

Slow down my bit torrent packets, I don't care, just don't sever the connection completely (especially not with forged replies).

Jason Levine
Premium
join:2001-07-13
USA

Re: A word on QOS and prioritization

I could see that type of prioritization of resources being ok. If the network is being heavily used and large groups of people are going to be affected, then get the top 5-10% of users and slow down their speeds until the congestion is over. Better that 5-10% of customers get slowed down than 100% of customers get slowed down. Of course, improving their network capacity is the better, long term solution.
--
-Jason Levine
Support a children's charity. Buy a calendar. Shooting For A Cause
Jason's Toolbox | PCQandA.com

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

said by viperlmw See Profile :

From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"

I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep.
You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

digitalfreak

join:2005-12-09
49533

Re: A word on QOS and prioritization

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by viperlmw See Profile :

From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"

I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep.
You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free.
Here's a virtual quarter. Call someone who cares.
nasadude

join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free.
the bandwidth isn't free, it's paid for. and what was that word those big ISPs use in their advertisements... oh yeah, unlimited!

packetscan
Premium
join:2004-10-19
Bridgeport, CT
clubs:
·Optimum Online

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

said by viperlmw See Profile :

From the article: "Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"

I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful (mostly centering around VOIP/ip video), and was basically told I didn't know what I was talking about even when I showed documentation. So if QOS/prioritization are going to be discussed, I'll go get my waders out again, 'cause it's gonna get deep.
You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free.
I'm sorry that i expect to get what i am being sold.
Other wise it's false advertising or a bait and switch.
--
Reach out and Tap someone!

NetAdmin
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

You know you are not allowed to speak out against the bandwidth hogs or you will be attacked. It is against populist mob rule to demand people not get unlimited everything for free.
I went and searched for the discussion in question. The poster didn't get "lambasted" for speaking "out against bandwidth hogs" or against "populist mob rule"... The discussion in question was about the technical nitty gritty of QoS and its effects on traffic and the poster didn't understand QoS enough to debate the person he/she was talking to in the thread.
--
---
Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat...
filizaragoza

join:2006-01-11
San Diego, CA

IF they Advertise 10MB/2MB Connection for $$.$$ of money a month, and you pay the such amount,

I have the right or use such connection at full speed for 1 a month or period the payment covers.....

The problem is they oversubscribe a NODE, what that means
is a node has like 300/50 MB ;

They sell 100 People the 10/2, They are required to have 1000/100 Bandwidth provision, yet they don,t, they just provide 300/50.

IT's like a plane that has 87 Seats, and the airline sells 95 arguing that some people have a tendency to miss planes,

So as long as these people miss the plane the airlines double sells 8 seats, but what happens when every body arrives in time to board the plane? do you split you're sell in 3? so at least part of you gets on the plane!

That's Whats happening here, The Cable is Charging for a Service that is not fulfilling 100%, as it lacks capacity,
SOLUTION Sell only what you have.
Want to sell more, Upgrade,

COMCAST Solution: Reset Connections, Lobby, And not give people gat they pay for.
and the people that use the connection at over 50% Call them Bandwidth hogs.,

If you pay for Cellular, and your plan has 1000 Minutes any time... YOU HAVE THE RIGHT To use 1000 MINUTES, if you use over 800 the Cell Company says you're a HOG... will you like that?

IF anything it's at least deceptive marketing, or fraud.. by Cable.

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

Re: A word on QOS and prioritization

said by filizaragoza See Profile :

That's Whats happening here, The Cable is Charging for a Service that is not fulfilling 100%, as it lacks capacity,
SOLUTION Sell only what you have.
Want to sell more, Upgrade,
If you get what you are demanding, then instead of $43/mo or $53/mo, expect to pay $150/mo. Overbooking, as you call it, is why the costs are what they are. Change that method and you will need to pay much more. There is no free lunch.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: A word on QOS and prioritization

Overbooking is fine, but you have to manage that so that you are capable of keeping up with your obligations with some degree of certainty.

I've asked before if there's a standard for managing overbooking so that customers still get the bandwidth when they demand it, but it seems that there isn't or people don't know what it is.

For Comcast -- maybe for Cable MSOs as a category -- the wheels of management have left the track. Telcos have arranged their business differently. It's still shared bandwidth, but there are more people in a much bigger pool and they seem able to hit their targets much more often than Cable can.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

Filiberto

@telnor.net
Yet when you use the services as it's advertice you ar call a bandwidth HOG

NetAdmin
CCNA

join:2008-05-22

said by viperlmw See Profile :

I got lambasted here by an ex-mod for suggesting that QOS has the potential to be useful
The "potential" of QoS/prioritization to "useful" is limited.
--
---
Over ten plus years of carrying The Clue Bat...

See 12 replies to this post

Samsong

@comcast.net

Some insight from those in the shaping game...

»netequalizer.wordpress.com/2008/···ranteed/

»netequalizer.wordpress.com/2008/···opinion/

Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:

lol...

Topolski has a problem with the bandwidth hogs having their p2p interfered with...

but doesn't have a problem with them being kicked off their isp instead as his suggested "alternative" ?

"Like most techs, Topolski doesn't oppose reasonable network management (booting high consumption users, some QOS and prioritization)"

Perhaps his next expose should be lets see how many customers Comcast can drop this month for network abuse.

Isn't a far better solution what sandvine did which let them at least remain customers..albeit reigning in their outrageous behavior somewhat?

The problem sometimes found with critics is that their "solutions" are sometimes worse.

And this is one of those times IMHO.
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: lol...

said by Rick See Profile :

Topolski has a problem with the bandwidth hogs having their p2p interfered with...

but doesn't have a problem with them being kicked off their isp instead as his suggested "alternative" ?
If they're interfering with others or violating the terms of their contracts, of course! Why should anyone put up with such Net.Idiots? That's the traditional way to handle the abuse desk.

Some time back (a few years, it seems) big ISPs seem to have tried to automate the abuse desk. They avoid kicking people off outright but instead create automation to look for problems. I think this effort has largely backfired.

I do not advocate cutting off service for hitting an invisible cap or for using P2P or any other legal mode.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs:

Re: lol...

said by funchords See Profile :

If they're interfering with others or violating the terms of their contracts, of course! Why should anyone put up with such Net.Idiots? That's the traditional way to handle the abuse desk.

I'm having a very hard time understanding your logic and applying it to your sometimes frantic efforts to see Comcast punished and chastised for their sandvine efforts.

On one hand, here you are saying that if people are interfering with others..throw the bastards off the network.

On the other hand, for MONTHS now, we've read of your opposition to Comcast trying to do what they can to insure that all we users have a positive experience with our connections and to insure that this vast minority of people aren't taking down the network.

Robb..let's face it. All the bandwidth hogs were the ones maxing out their p2p. That's who was doing it and who was causing the problems. And so, Comcasts efforts went towards regulating that..and only that by implementing sandvine.

Was it a perfect solution? No. Because it could have some carry over impact on some who weren't abusing it and who were using p2p for legal means. But that isn't what the vast majority were and are using it for today.
They're using it to continue to steal and trade others copyrighted works.

And so, Comcasts focus on that, while maybe not perfect and one that had some carryover impact on others..was targeted at the right thing.

Comcast and the other isp's didn't have the perfect solution. But it was superior to just terminating users connections. The real harm would come from that..in not allowing people access to the internet. We all have regulations we must follow in our daily lives. We drive to work..and have speed limits. Come to toll booths..and pay the price. What would be wrong is to say you can't drive on that road because you travel on it too much which is what simply terminating them would do.

I've always been for free and unlimited access. And felt that instead of terminating users..isp's should work towards having the tiers available to people who wanted them.
And who were willing to pay for them.

What your posts the last few months haven't done is to address the needs of people like me and the vast majority of comcast users. We want our service to work..and work properly. We want our fast speeds..99% uptime..and to pay a fair price. We don't want to support the 5% who are using 50% of the bandwidth and causing the problems that they have in various areas when they start to utilize their p2p setups 24/7. While maybe not perfect..I support(ed) sandvine. And I think that the vast majority of users would also if they understood fully what was involved here.

Sometimes laws and rules that are in place are an inconvenience to many people. Even the law abiding ones.
Sometimes I'm really in a hurry..and 30mph seems too slow to me. And sometimes if I wanted to use my connection for p2p for legitimate reasons..sandvine might have impacted me too inadvertently. But even so, I can recognize that sometimes..not everything is perfect. In laws or in life.
And I recognize that the greater purpose was there to really help me..and the majority.

I would not fault comcast or any isp in this regard for their efforts. I'd maybe say that it could be made better..and to proceed in that regard.

But fault them..Criticize them to no end..and call for them to be fined?

No way Man.

Not for trying to help the average customer enjoy their service.

~Rick
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic!

funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
·Verizon Online DSL
·Skype

Re: lol...

Rick, I'm very glad you're trying to understand this. I do want to see Comcast punished for Sandvine, but it's almost a separate issue. While the blocking should be stopped, I'm not as sure that they should be punished for the blocking as much as they should for using Sandvine in secret and lying about it afterward.

I'm worried that you think that my efforts are "frantic," because I've always approached this with an open mind. I am determined not to let it lie, but I'm by no means desperate. If anyone has shown frantic behavior, it's Comcast.

said by Rick See Profile :

On one hand, here you are saying that if people are interfering with others..throw the bastards off the network.

On the other hand, for MONTHS now, we've read of your opposition to Comcast trying to do what they can to insure that all we users have a positive experience with our connections and to insure that this vast minority of people aren't taking down the network.

Robb..let's face it. All the bandwidth hogs were the ones maxing out their p2p. That's who was doing it and who was causing the problems. And so, Comcasts efforts went towards regulating that..and only that by implementing sandvine.

Was it a perfect solution? No. Because it could have some carry over impact on some who weren't abusing it and who were using p2p for legal means. But that isn't what the vast majority were and are using it for today.
They're using it to continue to steal and trade others copyrighted works.

And so, Comcasts focus on that, while maybe not perfect and one that had some carryover impact on others..was targeted at the right thing.
So far, line by line, I can agree. But the next paragraph is different.

Comcast and the other isp's didn't have the perfect solution. But it was superior to just terminating users connections. The real harm would come from that..in not allowing people access to the internet.
No, because the "real harm" was that people who used their connections legally and responsibility were thrown overboard -- and we couldn't even get tech support for it, because Sandvine was a secret from them, too.

I've always been for free and unlimited access. And felt that instead of terminating users..isp's should work towards having the tiers available to people who wanted them.
And who were willing to pay for them.
Comcast cannot offer that service because their networks aren't built for everyone. They're built for the 90% of people that want to download far more than they upload. Comcast still hasn't come to grips with that in a healthy way -- in fact, they won't even admit it is true. Instead of trying to shoehorn that 10% into their network, they really need to figure out an alternative.

What your posts the last few months haven't done is to address the needs of people like me and the vast majority of comcast users.
I'm not running for CEO or anything. Comcast's hands are tied by the law, by its assurances in the past, and by the Internet standards.

I can criticize what it does without offering alternatives because Comcast is in this large-scale service business and, because of that, it has to accept something that economists call "freeloaders." These are people who ultimately will not be profitable. And while it is expected that they will try to limit the amount of freeloaders, they cannot break the law, their promises, or Internet Standards to do so.

We want our service to work..and work properly. We want our fast speeds..99% uptime..and to pay a fair price. We don't want to support the 5% who are using 50% of the bandwidth and causing the problems that they have in various areas when they start to utilize their p2p setups 24/7.
This is a perfect example of what I mean. Comcast doesn't have to arrange their services in a way that allows 5% to capture 50% of a bandwidth pool. That they do so is a choice that is completely under their control.

They feel that they have to in order to compete with FIOS and advances in DSL. Fine, but it is no excuse to break the law, their promises, or Internet Standards.

While maybe not perfect..I support(ed) sandvine. And I think that the vast majority of users would also if they understood fully what was involved here.
What do you support about Sandvine? It worked in secret, customer support didn't even know it was there. It used packet forgery and broke legitimate uses like Lotus Notes and legitimate file transfers. It was overzealous in that I couldn't upload 24/7 for months at a time. It didn't even have anything to do at all with Congestion! My own results, confirmed later by Max Planck researchers, and the analysis by the FCC, showed that it was pretty much around 24/7/365 without regard to the level of congestion.

Sometimes laws and rules that are in place are an inconvenience to many people. Even the law abiding ones.
Sometimes I'm really in a hurry..and 30mph seems too slow to me. And sometimes if I wanted to use my connection for p2p for legitimate reasons..sandvine might have impacted me too inadvertently. But even so, I can recognize that sometimes..not everything is perfect. In laws or in life.
And I recognize that the greater purpose was there to really help me..and the majority.
By this regard, Comcast could pretty much replace "Sandvine P2P Policy Element" with "Thug Hitting P2P Users with Mallets" and feel justified because it was only inconveniencing a minority of users. After all, they're trying to "really help me..and the majority."
I would not fault comcast or any isp in this regard for their efforts. I'd maybe say that it could be made better..and to proceed in that regard.

But fault them..Criticize them to no end..and call for them to be fined?

No way Man.

Not for trying to help the average customer enjoy their service.
Yes way, absolutely. Stupid is as stupid does. Even they are moving away from Sandvine, but they've yet to even admit that it was a mistake. And the thing they're moving to will bring another non-Standard set of incompatibilities that I intend to fully examine.

When Comcast agreed to provide Internet access, they agreed to abide by Internet Standards. These standards prevent the incompatibilities caused by stupid implementations such as Sandvine. If they don't like the standards, then it's an open process. By all means, get into the IETF and change them. Either that, or sell off the Internet access side of the business to someone who will abide by the rules.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
HTTP is the new Bandwidth Hog...

ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
clubs:

Re: lol...

As always Robb well spoken.

karlmarx

join:2006-09-18
iraq
·Fairpoint Communic..

Dammit, the solution is EASY

DON'T SELL WHAT YOU CAN'T PROVIDE. If you offer an all you can eat buffet, you can't complain if someone eats a lot. Simple as that. You ADVERTISE all you can eat, so why do you complain if someone eats a lot. The solution is quite simple. DON'T ADVERTISE ALWAYS ON INTERNET, or Don't sell bandwidth you can't provide. Either or works. If there is so much congestion on the cable networks, MAYBE it's because they are selling connections that are too fast. If the connection can only support 2mb/sec, then SELL 2mb/sec.
--
The happiest countries are the most secular. The struggle AGAINST corporations is the struggle FOR humanity!

en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
·DSL EXTREME

Re: Dammit, the solution is EASY

sarcasm

But... that's the whole basis of the U.S. economy.
Sell a business model that makes as much profit as possible with as little expense as possible.
Selling a network with 2Mbps that 'MAY' hit 100% usage for a few minutes / day is not sufficient, when you can sell +10Mbps for 3x the price and have a little caveat that those that are 'using' the product to its full extent are bandwidth hogs, are a threat to national security and must be dealt with.

/sarcasm
--
Canada = Hollywood North
SilverSurfer

join:2007-08-19

Re: Dammit, the solution is EASY

said by en102 See Profile :

But... that's the whole basis of the U.S. economy.
Sell a business model that makes as much profit as possible with as little expense as possible.
Selling a network with 2Mbps that 'MAY'
/sarcasm
Truer words were never uttered.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage


4 edits

Bandwidth costs practically NOTHING!

All you need to make bandwidth is CPU horsepower and a little electricity. What costs the most is to TRANSPORT bandwidth. In some ways it's like the Coke bottle and transportation to the store costing Coca-Cola more then the liquid inside. Transporting large amounts of bandwidth is DIRT CHEAP if you use fiber. Distribution of massive amounts of bandwidth via coax or copper is not efficient. Cable's problem is that they got greedy, and instead of upgrading their infrastructure, instead spent all their money buying each other out. NOW they are screwed-their plants are basically obsolete-and they are now squeezing the consumer. Problem is, in the competition limited RIGGED marketplace that our wonderful Bush controlled FCC has given us (now many DECADES will it take to undo his incompetance, graft and greed?), most of us have have but one alternative broadband competitor-and many have none.

benc
Premium
join:2007-06-17
Glen Carbon, IL
·Charter Pipeline
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Callcentric
·AT&T Midwest

Re: Bandwidth costs practically NOTHING!

Then it appears the question is, how much does it really cost to roll out FTTH to every home in the U.S.?

How about homes within 100 miles of a metro area (with 1M+ pop.)?

How about homes within 50 miles of a metro area?

And how about using those USF funds to pay for this? Or how about a 1% federal sales tax to finance this? However, I'm somewhat loathe to suggest more taxes, since it will undoubtedly be hard to remove or reduce the tax later.

As for having only one broadband choice, I know exactly what you mean. For me it's cable. At least in some ways it's better than having only DSL as a choice, since you'd be limited to 6.0M/768k. Believe it or not, I once met a fellow who said that DSL was his only choice. If he wanted TV he'd have to use Dish or something.

Filiberto

@telnor.net

Re: Bandwidth costs practically NOTHING!

said by benc See Profile :

And how about using those USF funds to pay for this?
If you didn't heard the USF Fund is a waste of Taxpayers money, as the mone never reaches the proyects the Telcos/Cable Companies say the would invest in.

At least not compleatly
AVonGauss
Premium,MVM
join:2007-11-01
Boynton Beach, FL

Embarrasement

What really bothers me about this topic is this...

All the quotes I have seen always state that its a very small percentage of the users that are causing all of the upload bandwidth congestion problems - one percent or less is the usual quote. So, what they are saying in effect is that one percent or less of their users can degregate their network infrastructure to the point where they ask (force) those particulars users to leave in order to maintain service for the rest of the network?

I don't know about anyone else, but if that were actually true I don't know that I would exactly go around and advertise that fact. I would be too embarrassed.
qworster

join:2001-11-25
Los Angeles, CA
·DSL EXTREME
·Brand X Internet
·RoadRunner Cable
·Vonage


1 edit

And it's going to get worse....

said by AVonGauss See Profile :

What really bothers me about this topic is this...

All the quotes I have seen always state that its a very small percentage of the users that are causing all of the upload bandwidth congestion problems - one percent or less is the usual quote. So, what they are saying in effect is that one percent or less of their users can degregate their network infrastructure to the point where they ask (force) those particulars users to leave in order to maintain service for the rest of the network?

I don't know about anyone else, but if that were actually true I don't know that I would exactly go around and advertise that fact. I would be too embarrassed.

This has NOTHING to do with bandwidth! Just like the RIAA and MPAA wants to control what music and movies you buy, the cablecos want to control what you WATCH! Look at what's happening out there. All the major networks now offer their shows online (and in HD!) the day after they run on TV. Consumers LOVE this-it's the ultimate on demand system. Problem is, the cablecos get NOTHING from this, except a headache-as this kind of usage grows. SO, they want to nip it in the bud! They do this by spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt), claiming that 1% of users are taking all YOUR bandwidth, when the fact is that THEY want MORE! Right now they only get a 1000 percent markup on each byte provided to the customer-but they want a 10,000% one (or more!).

This is all about GREED on the part of the cablecos-nothing more, nothing less!

tad2020

join:2007-07-17
Orange, CA
·AT&T DSL Service

"reasonable"

Nothing is likely to change anytime soon. It's unreasonable to expect ISP's to act "reasonable". About the only way anything will be changed in their current culture of DPI & throttling is sever government intervention, and that's just as unlikely to happen unless there is some kind of horrible event on the scale of Enron involving the misuse of DPI and other related practices. If some tech at ISP X used the DPI systems to collect millions of credit card numbers and personal information, Congress would seriously call in to question the lack-of-privacy practices of ISP's. Or if ISP X secretly started to block or severely limit access to competing service websites like YouTube or Hulu for favor to their own VOD site, and then their is a huge scandal involving leaked emails showing that previous press releases that the brocades were accidental were lies and the orders came for the top, Congress would possible pass a decent network neutrality bill that means something to the people.

Of course, I'm just speaking metaphorically.

TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast

Congestion is a potential problem and ....

.... accusing ISPs of greed doesn't change the facts.

"Complete congestion is a technical fantasy which only exists in the minds of people who do not understand TCP congestion control and how Additive Increase/Multiplicative Decrease (AIMD) works in TCP Congestion avoidance works, he says. "AIMD allows a linear growth of bandwidth utilization until loss occurs, at which time an exponential reduction takes place. This slow-start, fast-fallback ensures congestion cannot cause gridlock."
Of course, Complete congestion is impossible. But disabling congestion is NOT impossible. Who cares if the network isn't ever totally completely down, if the response time for a small web page takes 2 mins instead of 2 secs. Claiming that "COMPLETE" congestion is impossible is a straw man argument that tries to minimize the legitimate possibility of severely reduced response times to a majority of customers.

"In an ISP, such as Insight's network, a network upgrade ought to be performed if the network is routinely experiencing congestion," he notes. "This does not mean that individual cable modems ought to be provisioned with higher speeds, but that the shared pool of uplink bandwidth that they share ought to be increased to reduce the occurrence of congestion."
Now that is something I agree with. Stop the constant upgrading of modem speeds at the behest of marketing types and actually offer speeds that can be supported with the existing infrastructure. And only increase offered speeds when the infrastructure can handle it.

As Mr. Willner pointed out, network upgrades that are intended to enhance the speed and quality of Internet access would, in the absence of network management, only exacerbate this problem because P2P users around the world seek to retrieve files from computers on systems with the fastest upload speeds.
Just increasing speeds without dealing with the reality of P2P and also HD video streaming is a no-win proposition. If an ISP upgrades their speeds without recognizing the probability of their customers then being used by P2P systems to disproportionately serve up content, then their system has to increase costs and will be at a competitive disadvantage to systems that aren't targeted for serving up P2P content.

So, we all agree that network management and abusive customer management is necessary. But how that is done is up for debate.

Content providers, of course, come down on the side of never slowing down their particular content at all - no matter what it costs ISPs to deliver it to customers.

ISPs, on the other hand, don't want to aggravate the 95% of their customers who aren't on the bleeding edge of needing unlimited speeds to download 100 HD movies a month(even though those doing so could never watch them all). To allow that is to drive up costs for all customers.

My suggestion:
- Boot the "I need unlimited bandwidth 24x7" wackos or force them to pay much, much more for their service.
- stop offering increased speed tiers and start offering byte transfer tiers with costs based accordingly.

The only way that infrastructure will expand is if those creating the need for it pay the costs of the expansion.
--
My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?

See 6 replies to this post

jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA
·Verizon FIOS

Why Can't Boost Handle This Issue?

Comcast's "Boost", or whatever they call it these days, already throttles the customer's internet connection. How difficult would it be to choke a continuous upstream or downstream to a fraction of the full bandwidth after a set amount of time has elapsed or data has been transferred?

If there is congestion, throttle the offending connections back. If they have the capability to allow me to initially upload at 3mbps and then drop me down to 2mbps, why can't they extend this to limit my uploads even further the longer I continue to upload a file from the same source? If someone wished to download a HD movie during peak hours, go for it, just expect to be limited to about 256kbps after the first 100MB have been downloaded.

It seems that Comcast is very close to having a viable answer already. There is clearly more to this than just protecting the infrastructure. The tools they want to promote and utilize will no doubt be used to generate revenues in what many would probably consider a violation of privacy, otherwise the lobbyists would not be required.
SilverSurfer

join:2007-08-19

Your Internet Experience: Becoming Shittier for More $$$$$

All I have to say is that it's a good goddamn thing some of us -like Topolski- are awake at the wheel, otherwise the Internet would be nothing but an enormous, horrific AOHell-like vehicle for pop up/pop under/pop over exclusively for spam and ads. And the ISPs and telcos would sell "browsing" habits to the highest bidder. Oh wait. Nevermind.
jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL
·surpasshosting
·ViaTalk

You had me until...

quote:
"Deep Packet Inspection devices capable of detecting what applications end points are using are both new and intrusive. They do not perform a task of Network management, they are performing tasks of Session and Application management. These are both new and inappropriate roles for Internet Service Providers."
The first part is just plain wrong, upper layer filtering and control have been around for a long time.

The second is merely semantic masturbation -- the phrase network management doesn't mean that all higher levels of the OSI model are ignored, and Topolski knows it.

He'd make a good politician -- make some solid statements at first, get loosened up, and then shove your foot in your mouth trying to hit one out of the park, thus blowing your credibility.

See 17 replies to this post

ARGONAUT
got ping?

join:2006-01-24
New Albany, IN

Bandwidth of Fury

So, out of 100% uploading possibility if you use over 50% your the bad guy here.

person842

@comcast.net

Reasonable management and upgrades would avoid all this BS

I think we all know that if a couple of millions less were spent on lies, bribery, false advertising, and ridiculous corporate bonuses then we could see better network upgrades and no problem.

You can't get 100% profit of everything you sell. You have to reinvest the damn money to upgrading your network as technology as usage increases.

Filiberto

@telnor.net

Re: Reasonable management and upgrades would avoid all this BS

said by person842 :

You can't get 100% profit of everything you sell. You have to reinvest the damn money to upgrading your network as technology as usage increases.
They are investing the money...

The CFO, CIO, just got new 2008 Hummers...
and a BIG BIG SCREEN TV...

IT makes you feel good to be a customer..

Richard Bennett

@pacbell.net

Nonsense analysis

See my blog »bennett.com/blog for a rebuttal. Topolski is mussing the effects of multiple users and multiple streams across a shared choke point.
BubbaDude

join:2008-06-06
Livermore, CA


1 edit

Sorry, Karl, but I'm not buying it.

Ordinarily, bandwidth demand grows slowly and can be managed by ordinary means, but innovative new applications put extraordinary pressure on the Internet's ability to mediate bandwidth among users. This has happened before, with both ftp and HTTP. The protocols had to be re-engineered to handle the demand.

Topolski's amateur analysis of P2P ignores multi-stream and community effects, and these are all-important. See my blog for the analysis of one of the icons of packet switching: »bennett.com/blog/2008/07/hysteri···ectives/

Or don't, if you're content that Topolski is telling you the whole story.

anon12

@comcast.net

Re: Sorry, Karl, but I'm not buying it.

said by Karl :

The guys actually working in the network operation centers will generally tell you that congestion can almost always be handled with smart design and capacity upgrades
Yes that's true. The problem is upgrades in an HFC plant are not always that simple. For physical node splits neighborhoods have to be torn up and permits must be acquired. Comcast only budgets for X # of node splits a year and invariably some systems will run hot because of that.

You have some good points but I think you weaken your argument by making it so one-sided.

fatmanskinny
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Wandering
·Comcast Digital Vo..
·Comcast


1 edit

I just read the AUP for the first time....

It is a bunch of bullsh*t - »www.comcast.net/terms/use/.

Ok, if the bandwidth is not limited, the what the f**k are my caps? As more video productions move to the on-line arena, Comcast stands to grab both the producers and the consumers by the balls, turn them upside down and shake more money from them.

This is a New World Order-like scenario at best and will either explode in Comcast's face or force the creation of an "underground" medium.
--
The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary.

Froggy

@teksavvy.com

Don't Fear The Bandwidth Apocalypse

Prohibition didn't work for booze and it work work for bandwidth either.
Forums » Don't Fear The Bandwidth Apocalypsepage: 1 · 2


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