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Comments on news posted 2008-07-22 18:30:31: Estimates suggest that AT&T, Verizon, Qwest and Embarq collectively lose around 2.6 million landline customers per quarter. ..
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 iansltx
join:2007-02-19
Golden, CO
 ·Comcast
 ·Qwest.net
 ·magicjack.com
 ·BeeCreek Communica..
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| The POTS situation here... Verizon is the POTS carrier here. $19.97 per month for service on a basic (unlimited local, nothing else) line including taxes and fees. About $6 extra per month for LD, assuming you don't use it above the shortfall charge :/ Switching the LD over to Pioneer Telephone now; we use a calling card on the home phone at 2.4 cents/minute.
Everyone in the house now as a cell phone (all prepaid except mine) and all (except mine, and I have several) have batteries that last for days, or hours of talk time. Not sure about battery backup at the cell towers, but we have no powered-by-copper phones (two 900 MHz cordless, one big desk phone\fax). So if the power goes out (which it generally doesn't do) we use cells.
Then again, I'd say that both power and POTS are quite reliable. Power, aside from a quick outage every once in awhile (a few seconds), seems to be on 100% of the time. Phone service has been known to get so bad that dialup could only sustain 9600 bps, though if I remember correctly there have never been any outages. But the static on the line two or three years ago probably happened for 24 hours out of the year, killing even three nines of reliability in my opinion. But that was a few years ago.
Recently, a fiber cut killed a lot of communications for several hours...not sure how long because I was at college at the time...only incoming calls would work or something like that. To my knowledge, our WiSP stayed up because they have a wireless link into town.
However I would NEVER consider using that ISP for VoIP. Over the past few months the connection has become unreliable in terms of jitter, latency and even packet loss; cellular broadband can do a much better job of VoIP than the wireless joke that is the current ISP here.
Plus, if there's a storm, the internet service almost always goes down, sometimes just for a few hours, sometimes for a dozen hours. Any more reliable, however, and you'd have to go back to dialup, or (God forbid) satellite. Or cellular.
Yaknow, I don't hate POTS. Though I'd rather have FTTH the copper is relatively reliable. But for gosh sakes you can get an unlimited-everything VoIP package for $20 a month if you look in the right places, and the no-features landline around here is $20 straight! If you want all the features and such, it's $45 plus know-knows-how-much in fees. And you thought cellular bills were bad...
IMO the solution for the POTS problem for the comsumer looking for reliability is having a prepaid cell phone of a different carrier than thair main one handy, just a basic phone with a long-life battery. Then have their main cell. Plus maybe some sort of radio  . The solution to the POTS bleeding for telcos: offer a fees-inclusive service that's $15 a month for a basic line, $10 a month extra for all the calling features, and $15 a month extra for unlimited LD. This is the same price as the cable VoIP systems, and if all taxes and fees are included the customer has no reason to switch.
Wait...I'm talking to the wrong people...:) | |
| slyphoxj
join:2002-06-23
Brook Park, OH
·AT&T Midwest
| One advantage POTS has that no one has mentioned yet is... ... is that it's possible, for those who qualify (low enough income, on food stamps, SSI, etc.), to get "lifeline" POTS service. Here in Ohio, it's a $12 credit on your phone bill. Someone with an AT&T POTS line with unlimited local calling, no optional features and no long distance carrier can have POTS service with a total bill for as little as $10. Long distance service can be had for around 2 cents a minute with a prepaid long distance card from www.uniontelecard.com. Try that with a VOIP or cell(*) line!
* It's possible to keep a prepaid cell phone for $10/month, but you don't get anything approaching unlimited local calling. But the prepaid cell makes for a nice backup to the POTS line. | |
| | 
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: One advantage POTS has that no one has mentioned yet is... Here they give them Lifeline wireless too.
IE you can have your Cell phone and pay $1 a month. | |
| | | slyphoxj
join:2002-06-23
Brook Park, OH
·AT&T Midwest
| Re: One advantage POTS has that no one has mentioned yet is... said by KrK  :Here they give them Lifeline wireless too. IE you can have your Cell phone and pay $1 a month. Which provider(s)? What plan?
I believe Arizona offers a Lifeline credit on the lowest Sprint plan (200 anytime / 500 nights and weekend)- total bill is $16 I think? But here in Ohio, the Lifeline credit is for POTS only. | |
| | | |
KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK | Re: One advantage POTS has that no one has mentioned yet is... Much of Oklahoma is defined as "Tribal or Former Tribal land" and so qualifies for "Enhanced Lifeline" program, which provides basic phone service (either POTS or wireless) for as low as a $1 a month. | |
| | jwillisbarri
join:2005-03-22
Barrie, ON | i am not sure but I think that cell phones are supposed to work to call 911 regardless of if it has been paid for or not. Could someone confirm this ? | |
| | | | 
brut7
join:2000-10-06
Babylon, NY
·magicjack.com
| Economics POTS is like a Zombie.
Oh yeah, it's dying... dead.
A Zombie that's also a bank account thief.
Why wouldn't it be? You don't have a cell and a car charger to back up your voip?
Even cellular is on the way out but watch how hard they kick and scream and fight to get people to pay them money like we owe it to them.
For now go t-mobile pay by the minute 100 bills does it, no BS way.
Cells going the same way, wireless voip will win.
We all know it so give it up meatballs.
Best Wishes | |
| | | jwillisbarri
join:2005-03-22
Barrie, ON
·Bell Sympatico
| Re: I keep POTS because of E-911. See another message here on dslreports -
»VoIP Blamed in Death of Canadian Child
The biggest fear associated with having VoIP services for primary phone numbers was realized this week when a young child died as the result of misdirected emergency responders. The eighteen-month old Canadian child was having trouble breathing so his parents dialed 911 using their VoIP phone. The call was received by the VoIP provider’s call center and was cut off before parents could give their location. The call center reported the emergency to responders but gave an address different from the actual location of the family. The child didn’t get to the hospital until it was too late.
If you can't for some reason even speak or give info - e911 on POTS will give your location ! Then the emergency services will come - is VOIP worth a life ? Sure it is nice to use for calling long distance etc. There are still some things it does not work well with like TTY/TDD for the Deaf.
Jim | |
| ebubman
join:2002-01-17
Enola, PA
·Comcast
·Vonage
1 edit | we don't need no stinking landlines... we booted our vzon pots line out the front door circa 6 years ago. only regret is that we hadn't done it sooner. since then we've used our gsm cell phones for voice traffic, ccast for isp (pricey but snappy) & about 18 mos ago, added a vonage lowest price line just for incoming calls. the telcos act as if they are indispensable; in reality, all they are doing is rearranging chairs on the deck of the titanic. bub | |
| 
Rick
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-06
Waterbury, CT
clubs: 
| To briefly revisit my AT&T Rantfest key points for a moment I ask you this..
What do you have when you have a company that is losing it's core business customers faster than you can count them leaving the door AND when you have a new next generation strategy that has managed to
a)alienate so many communities
b)seem so antiquated compared to the competition
c)generate less than 400k customers total in all their service areas through their last report?
You have a company delivering a product called Uverse...
and you have potentially the next AOL in terms of a business overall.
I said repeatedly while this recreation of the titanic called AT&T was still somewhat upright that if this company didn't recognize what was happening and soon...
time might very well run out for them.
You simply cannot lose this many core customers over and over and over..and have a strategy like Uverse in place..and hope to survive.
They were SO busy trying to grow this dinosaur of a business model even larger with all their acquisitions..that they simply missed or never even understood the huge challenges they were facing.
Folks..the largest telco on planet earth is losing all it's telco customers at a rate so fast it would make a shuttle reentering the earths atmosphere look slow and their sales pitch now is c'mon and get your phone..hsi and hdtv over their old copper lines.
See a problem there? I sure do...and have..from the beginning.
AT&T...you need to open up that checkbook bigtime and start the biggest fiber to the home rollout the world has ever seen.
You need something for your customers and potential customers to look forward to...need to create some excitement and something people want to stick around your company for.
Or..you're not going to be around in a few years. You'll be another AOL. Washed up and a has been. Wireless won't save you. Steve Jobs won't save you.
If the largest telco on planet earth can't be a telco...you won't be anything at all.
--
The Coyote captured the RR! Roadrunner Rick is now Comcastic! | |
| | 
Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
| Re: To briefly revisit my AT&T Rantfest land line providers better wake up and smell the coffee!
I cancelled my POTs 2 years ago and
moved my local number to my cell phone.
now that I can get 1500mbs speeds from a wireless ISP,
I plan on cancelling my dry loop copper based DSL soon.
and since I moved this all away form Verizon and on to
Sprint, Verizon should be kissing my ass to get me back,
with either a cheaper coppy DSL or cheaper wireless cell. | |
| | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | Rick honestly believes that 449,000 is less than 400,000. Amazing.
That's still incorrect as you're using sub numbers from 4 months ago. | |
| | bogey780
join:2004-03-19
Here | Oh btw...I think you owe Uverse a congrats for being higher rated than Comcast by BBR users. | |
| | 
a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
| Rick, relax.. even if AT&T's consumer division disappeared OVERNIGHT, it wouldn't be so much as a scratch on the table...
As to an FTTH rollout, you realize that the step from FTTn to FTTH is a tiny one. Once you have fiber within ~1000 Ft. of subscriber homes, finishing that gap ain't much of a hurdle. EVEN if they don't close that gap, line bonding, along with a true VDSL2 profile can mean sync speeds of close to 150 Mbps for many homes. Throw in line bonding, and we have a technology that doesn't need Sandvine to stop "network abuse".
And yes, Steve Jobs IS saving them as well. In case you haven't noticed, iPhone prices are down to $199, and data plans will likely follow suit. Heck, ATT's wireless division is gaining shitloads of new subscribers every quarter, and already, 60% of their existing subs use data services.
Some people here seriously need to stop drinking the 'Deathstar' Kool-aid. Chill, AT&T's in no remote danger, even if they lost ALL landline subscribers today... | |
| 
RainWind
join:2000-10-20
Van Wert, OH
| I pay more in taxes than I do phone service... Before I added caller-id and all that junk ($5 extra a month because of the DSL bundle discount) I was paying around $10/mo for my line... and then $15 in taxes/fees.
I'm sure some of those fees belonged with the $10 charge, but either way its stupid. Paying more in taxes and fees/unfees than for the service itself is just plain stupid.
Something needs to change. | |
| tmc8080
join:2004-04-24
Floral Park, NY
| Quantify: POTS Reliability in 2008 POTS phone lines are NOT as reliable as they used to be. Traditionally, that was the case when telephone companies were a heavily regulated monopoly with the government breathing down their necks circa 1970-1995. Once telephonelines started getting DSL in 1996 it's been downhill in reliability. Gaps started opening up in that once invincible copper powered phone line. Networks begin using technology to make better use of copper and deploy fiber optics between switch stations. Thus, ONE cut/damaged cable affect MORE consumers than it used to conceivably for a longer outage than it used to (at least that's my experience, although there's bound to be a learning curve with new deployed technology). Even the NYSE was not immune to these types of disruptions. Porting POTS over Fiber is not a guarantee of reliability. If anything has shown its worth in gold is traditional CB/Ham radios in major emergencies NOT POTS phone lines! Extended blackouts, Hurricanes, terrorist attacks, wreaked havoc on infrastructure proving their inflexibility to deal with crises. So, to say those $15 taxes/fees are supporting the same kind of reliability you used to have is total B/S, and that my friend is WHY there is a net LOSS of 2,000+ phone lines per day. Oh, that AND the widening gap between comparable cost/value! I'm sure there are still reporters who cling to a 1970's style typewriter as well (birth of the electric typewriter).. but they're a dying breed. | |
| zod5000
join:2003-10-21
Edmonton, AB
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Degradation of Sound Quality I work in a call centre of sorts, and you can tell which people are calling it from landlines, and which people are calling from a digital based phone, whether it be VOIP or a cell phone.
The quality on digital phones just doesn't compare, quite often I can hear the compression and it bugs me (just like you could here it in 128kbps mp3's back in the day).
I think I'll keep my landline a while longer just because of the quality. | |
| | suncet
join:2001-02-01
Lehi, UT
| Re: Degradation of Sound Quality I think that there's some confusion about VoIP here. The bottom line is that your broadband connection, whether it be 1.5Mbps or 100Mbps, the ISP HAS to provide QoS (Quality of Service; prioritizing your VoIP traffic) across the entire network to the gateway. And that doesn't matter squat if your crappy $50 Netgear/Linksys/Belkin whatever router doesn't also provide QoS on your internal network (from the ATA or digital phone).
Then there's the issue of how many hops your VoIP call is going through the public internet to reach the hard lines. Vonage (as an example) averages about 30 hops in the western US (not sure about eastern and of course this changes per geographical location where ever you are)which translates to many more possible problems than say 10-15 hops.
So the bottom line here is your ISP's ability to provide QoS, the ISP's uptime, your VoIP provider and your internal network. If all are in check then your VoIP will sound way better than a POTS line...guaranteed. And you can get many 'cheaper' features plus the free long distance bonus = less $$$ out of your wallet.
Do your homework and see if your ISP can actually support VoIP (QoS, not just the connection speed)and if they can then your good to go.
And as far as e911 goes, check with your VoIP provider to make sure they support your zip. If they don't then keep a cell phone handy when the kids face down in the swimming pool. | |
| | |
a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
·Cingular Wireless
·Verizon Online DSL
1 edit | Re: Degradation of Sound Quality said by suncet :I think that there's some confusion about VoIP here. The bottom line is that your broadband connection, whether it be 1.5Mbps or 100Mbps, the ISP HAS to provide QoS (Quality of Service; prioritizing your VoIP traffic) across the entire network to the gateway. And that doesn't matter squat if your crappy $50 Netgear/Linksys/Belkin whatever router doesn't also provide QoS on your internal network (from the ATA or digital phone). That's the problem, innit? Most ISP's are reluctant to prioritize a competing voice product. Most cable ISP's would rather that you use THEIR phone product. Same goes for the baby bells providing DSL. Notice all this talk about bandwidth caps? If there's one thing cable MSO's learned from telcos, it's that you can't sit on your hands and let the competition use your products against you. Telcos suffered from dry DSL availability, which led to landline losses to cheap VoIP. Cablecos, obviously, don't want to be dumb pipes and offer the same choice for consumers, though they should, in the ideal free market picture.
In short, QoS and bandwidth caps are the main clouds that cast doubt on the future of VoIP.
Peace,
a333 | |
| 
whatphone
@direcpc.com
| i can't remember when you call the phone company and they proudly tell you when the power goes out the phone still works do they tell you if it has to be corded or not? don't most people have cordless phones. excuse me for not knowing i can't remember what it's like to have a landline. | |
| | 
Madness
Like a flea circus at a dog show.
join:2000-01-05
Quincy, MA
·Verizon Online DSL
| Re: i can't remember Most cordless phones use a wall-wart to power the base. So if one could fabricate a battery-back-up for it (correct DC voltage/current/polarity) & the handset was good, one could use the cordless for however long both supplies held out.
But of all the fees on a land-line, the one that has always stuck out like a sore thumb is the "FCC Line Charge," which is usually the highest of them all. This was tacked on after the Bell divestiture in '84 to replace the long-distance subsidies that AT&T Long Lines kicked back to the local BOCs (& to the Indies [GTE, et. al.] as well) to help keep local-exchange prices low (in most areas). Why must we still pay that ~25 years later?!!
And another laugh is still having a separate charge for Touch-Tone service. Isn't that, like, so ubiquitous today that it should just be included in the basic dial tone change? I've always wondered what would happen if one were to order a line and specify pulse-dial service only (or cancel it on an existing line).  | |
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