  baineschile 2600 Premium join:2008-05-10 Sterling Heights, MI | Wow
The FCC is like the college dean nerd that is trying to discipline the jock that doenst care. a laughing matter.... |
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 markofmayhem
join:2004-04-08 Pittsburgh, PA | Cry...
As comcast is my only broadband option for internet, the future cap and throttle announcement saddens me greatly.  |
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  funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC
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4 edits | Great Comments by David P. Reed
For more about David P. Reed, read the Wikipedia entry about him.
David P. Reed: FCC Order on Comcast - a good job
said by Dr. David P. Reed :The FCC today issued its formal opinion and order in regard to Comcast’s degrading of P2P and other traffic using DPI and RST injection. Of course, I’ve been very interested in this, especially since I was asked by the Commission to testify as a witness at the en banc hearing at Harvard Law School in February. After reading the order this morning, I felt like commending the FCC - so I filed a formal comment with the FCC, and I posted it on my site as well... This note represents my personal comments as a citizen and Internet expert regarding today’s decision by the FCC in the matter of Comcast’s use of Deep Packet Inspection and RST packet injection to interfere with certain customer traffic. I was one of the witnesses who testified at the FCC en banc hearing on the subject of reasonable network management practices at Harvard Law School in February. Portions of my testimony and written statement are cited in the order, so there is no need to repeat them here. However, I would like to commend the order and the process that led to it. Lawyers and policy experts will have their own point of view, but as an engineer and architect, I’d like to commend the Commissions decision on technical and architectural grounds. As an engineer and scientist, I was impressed by the Commission’s process in this matter, particularly its interest in coming to an understanding the particular technological structure of the Internet design. The FCC clearly invested a great deal of effort to the end of understanding the complex technology of the Internet. As a former member of the FCC Technological Advisory Council, I have seen the need for accurate and state-of-the-art technical input to the Commission that is not colored by the interests of the regulated parties. In this decision, the Commission should be commended for its efforts to seek inputs from the Internet technical community. The decision rendered by the FCC today shows that the agency understands the importance of the technological principles of the Internet’s design. The core ideas of that design were shaped by a desire to create a system that could both scale to the size it has reached today and evolve through massive changes in infrastructure technology and applications. The decision and order reinforce those core ideas -- they do not mandate that ISPs support particular applications or implement speciric solutions, but instead reinforce the concept that companies that claim to offer the Internet must conform to the Internet’s framework. The Internet is a world-wide system that does not belong to any one operator, whether providing access lines or backbone transport. This is the essence of internetworking. The Internet is not just “another network” owned and operated by a private concern for a set of customers. The Commission order clearly comprehends that special quality that transcends the interests of Comcast or any other access provider. The strongest part of the order, for me personally, is that it navigates the tough path between heavy-handed regulation and disciplining misbehavior. To me, this is the challenge that separates government by “sound bite” and the difficult work of making our country work. The key technical and architectural issues are twofold: •The design of the Internet Protocols specifies clear limits on what operators can and cannot do to Internet Protocol datagrams when those operators are acting as part of the Internet.
•Not obeying those limits poses a serious risk to the continued success of the world-wide Internet. Happily, the FCC recognized and exposed Comcast’s transgressions of those limits. These are not in themselves legal issues. Nor are they guaranteed by “the market” because the short-term behavior of certain actors with market power can break the “technical covenant” that keeps the Internet running. For the most part, so-called “network externalities” make misbehavior by any one participant in the Internet self-defeating -- cutting the misbehaving participant’s customers off from many of the benefits provided by others. However, certain participants in the Internet are in a position to control or to deceive customers using their market power and government-granted exclusivity. Access providers are one such category. The Commission made a wise decision today, taking a decision that sends a notice to Internet service providers that the Commission is watching, that it understands that the Internet involves a new set of technical challenges, and that the Commission is willing to act in a way that reinforces the success of the Internet as a whole. [Note: in addition to filing this comment formally with the Commission, I am also posting it on my personal blog -- happy that blogs and the blogosphere are one of the many applications that would never have happened, had Internet access providers in the past two decades attempted to control what services and applications their customers could use in the name of “network management”] ...The decision is a good decision for the Internet. In short here’s why: The decision shows that the agency understands the importance of the technological principles of the Internet’s design. The Internet is a world-wide system that does not belong to any one operator, whether providing access lines or backbone transport. The design of the Internet Protocols specifies clear limits on what operators can and cannot do to Internet Protocol datagrams when those operators are acting as part of the Internet. Not obeying those limits poses a serious risk to the continued success of the world-wide Internet. Happily, the FCC recognized and exposed Comcast’s transgressions of those limits. Though Internet design is not a law, the Commission’s order respects the importance of that design, and rejects Comcast’s misbehavior and deception in applying technologies that go against the principles of that design. What can I say that he didn't already say, better, and with more authority, than I ever could.
-- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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  funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC
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| reply to markofmayhem Re: Cry...
said by markofmayhem :As comcast is my only broadband option for internet, the future cap and throttle announcement saddens me greatly. You do realize that P2P interference and a bandwidth cap already are there, they just were unannounced. Now Comcast will have to be honest about what it is offering. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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  TKJunkMail Enjoy the sun Premium join:2002-03-03 Avalon, NJ
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| The order still allows content blocking
One thing the order doesn't do is stop Comcast from blocking illegal content. And that includes videos & music that violate copyright rights.
»www.lightreading.com/document.as···site=cdn
The Commission also reiterated that its interest is in protecting consumers’ access to lawful content. Blocking unlawful content such as child pornography or pirated music or video would be consistent with federal Internet policy. »hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···83A1.pdf
We also note that because “consumers are entitled to access the lawful Internet content of their choice,”providers, consistent with federal policy, may block transmissions of illegal content (e.g., child pornography) or transmissions that violate copyright law. So, Comcast can still block access to content that violates copyright. The open issue is HOW THEY DO THAT. The FCC has nixed using RST packets. But if Comcast comes up with another way to block P2P file sharing that violated copyright, they are free to do so. -- My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? |
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  NOZIREV
join:2008-07-10 New Bedford, MA | reply to markofmayhem Re: Cry...
really... 250GB is a pretty reasonable cap you must be a pirate, ARRRRRR Matey  |
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  hobgoblin Sortof Agoblin Premium join:2001-11-25 Orchard Park, NY clubs:
| reply to funchords Re: Great Comments by David P. Reed
"What can I say that he didn't already say, better, and with more authority, than I ever could."
I think you 2 should get a room
 -- "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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  funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC
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| reply to TKJunkMail Re: The order still allows content blocking
said by TKJunkMail :So, Comcast can still block access to content that violates copyright. The open issue is HOW THEY DO THAT. The FCC has nixed using RST packets. But if Comcast comes up with another way to block P2P file sharing that violated copyright, they are free to do so. The FCC did NOT prohibit using any method, including RST packets, to block copyright violations.
This order was the result of, and only applies to, impeding legal content. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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  Rob In Deo speramus, God Bless the USA Premium join:2001-08-25 Kendall, FL
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| reply to funchords Re: Cry...
said by funchords :said by markofmayhem :As comcast is my only broadband option for internet, the future cap and throttle announcement saddens me greatly. You do realize that P2P interference and a bandwidth cap already are there, they just were unannounced. Now Comcast will have to be honest about what it is offering. Which will only hurt the consumer, not help them. |
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 pandora Premium join:2001-06-01 Outland
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| reply to TKJunkMail Re: The order still allows content blocking
said by TKJunkMail :One thing the order doesn't do is stop Comcast from blocking illegal content. And that includes videos & music that violate copyright rights. » www.lightreading.com/document.as···site=cdnThe Commission also reiterated that its interest is in protecting consumers’ access to lawful content. Blocking unlawful content such as child pornography or pirated music or video would be consistent with federal Internet policy. » hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/a···83A1.pdfWe also note that because “consumers are entitled to access the lawful Internet content of their choice,”providers, consistent with federal policy, may block transmissions of illegal content (e.g., child pornography) or transmissions that violate copyright law. So, Comcast can still block access to content that violates copyright. The open issue is HOW THEY DO THAT. The FCC has nixed using RST packets. But if Comcast comes up with another way to block P2P file sharing that violated copyright, they are free to do so. I don't think Comcast's problem was one of blocking content, but of blocking an application. If Comcast could devise a way to block illegal content, I don't think they'd have any problems with the FCC.
Comcast may be correct in thinking that some applications are used primarily to pirate copyrighted material. However, it is probably more for the FCC or Congress to authorize blocking of applications than for Comcast. -- "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." |
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  halfband Premium join:2002-06-01 Huntsville, AL
| reply to TKJunkMail said by TKJunkMail :But if Comcast comes up with another way to block P2P file sharing that violated copyright, they are free to do so. Sure, because not many users would try and get the FCC to restore their access to "illegal" content. But it will not take very many instances of blocking of legitimate content to open the whole can of worms again. Blocking copyright violations without false positives is proving to be rather elusive. Does comcast really want to be the content police force? Seems like it has been a hopeless cause to date. -- Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812 |
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  asdfdfdfdfdfdf
@Level3.net
| reply to funchords Re: Great Comments by David P. Reed
I agree. The fact is that you brought light to underhanded practices. The fcc agreed that it is beyond the pale. There is some evolution of boundaries being set to constrain bad behavior. It is a warning that companies will not be given carte blanche and will have to be more circumspect before trying to pull something in future. It seems to be guiding behavior toward more reasonable approaches.
It is easy to be cynical but these are all positive developments. No one is under any illusion that we are on the verge of utopia but it is a relatively bright day within the context of the last few years and we should be pleased. |
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 iansltx
join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO
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| reply to funchords Re: Cry...
Yaknow, "above DSL speeds" could mean an *increase* in connectin speeds for those throttled . I mean, Qwest has 20 Mbps DSL and 5 Mbps in most places, Windstream has 12 Mbps DSL...I have 8 Mbps Comcast w\PowerBoost so it all depends on how you interpret "above DSL speeds"  |
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 iansltx
join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO | reply to NOZIREV Or do online backup. Yes, otherwise 250GB is reasonable and even for P2P I'd think it'd be fine, but for online backup stuff I'm not so sure. |
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 EPS
join:2008-02-13 Hingham, MA
| reply to TKJunkMail Re: The order still allows content blocking
Blocking the BitTorrent protocol on the assumption that it contains pirated material when it does not necessarily do so, would block consumer's access to some lawful content. (the infamous Linux ISOs) It's the same basic idea of the Betamax case, isn't it? I can very easily find copyright-violating content on websites that use HTTP as well.
The only way to really detect and block copyright-violating content without blocking legitimate content is by packet inspection, and even then compression and encryption make it difficult if not nearly impossible, to say nothing of fair use... Plus, the ISP will have to have some way to determine legitimate uses of copyrighted content, for example, if I paid for it and am simply using digital distribution.
I don't know... it just seems to me that attempting to outright block pirated content at the ISP level seems to be a futile task. Of course, that doesn't solve anything for the content producers... |
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 iansltx
join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO | reply to funchords So, um, how do you differentiate legal BItTorrent traffic from illegal? What about if it's encrypted?
Dumb pipe, please. Yaknow, like the phone lines that DSL runs on? |
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  NOZIREV
join:2008-07-10 New Bedford, MA | reply to iansltx Re: Cry...
agreed, but there are other ways to back stuff up but i hear ya barkin big dog. |
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 iansltx
join:2007-02-19 Golden, CO
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| It is the consensus of geeks worldwide that offsite backup is the only real backup. This can be done one of two ways: sneakernet or internet. The latter makes much more sense because nothing physical has to be moved from point A to point B in an effort to keep the stuff on that media safe. The data just goes over the network.
But wait...with crap...er...caps, you can't back up all your videos (not movies, videos...the ones you take yourself), photos and other rich media, and cloud computing stops working the way it should.
Microsoft is working on Midori, a cloud computing centric OS. It ain't gonna work on a capped broadband infrastructure nearly as well as a regular desktop...looks like Microsoft will get a lot of FiOS customers but few others for their new concept :/ |
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  WiseOldNerd De gustibus non est disputandum Premium join:2001-11-25 Phoenix, AZ | FCC Blind, Deaf, Dumb & Clueless
Thanks to the Bush Nazis and the other "free market" jingoists the FCC is toothless, ball less, deaf, dumb, blind and without a clue as to what is really needed by citizens of this country. -- My perception is REALITY |
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  funchords Hello Premium,MVM join:2001-03-11 Washington, DC
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1 edit | reply to iansltx Re: The order still allows content blocking
said by iansltx :So, um, how do you differentiate legal BItTorrent traffic from illegal? There is no foolproof way. I think the owner of copyrighted material is the best judge to know who might abuse his rights and he or she has to defend against that abuse somehow. But trying to ban it off of the network either network-wide (via DMCA) or ISP-wide (through filtering) has been a huge failure and has probably distracted the industry from seeing the bigger picture.
It can't be filtered off the worldwide Internet because the laws differ and local (US) law provides that a violation really depends upon how the content is used.
Plus I don't think that US citizens currently support a 70-90 year copyright, which is why the law gets disrespected -- to some people it's disrespected to the point that the law doesn't exist!
The copyright holders have to fix this because the current system is broken beyond repair in nearly every respect. When our current copyright situation becomes the software requirements for an accurate copyright filter, it is clear that the job is impossible. -- Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon More fun, more features, Join BroadbandReports.com, it's free...
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