morbo
Complete Your Transaction
join:2002-01-22
00000
clubs:
 ·Charter Pipeline
 ·AT&T Southwest
| price, usability, features
If a networked DVR offered by cable company competes on 1) price, 2) features, and 3) usability then Tivo is screwed. However, cable dvrs have ONLY competed on monthly price -- and now that has even changed as many dvr offerings are more expensive than a regular Tivo plan.
Conclusion: Tivo lives on |
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snipper_cr
join:2002-01-22
Wheaton, IL
clubs:
| Why fear?
Why would the entertainment industry fear head-end DVRs? To me, that would help the industries desire for control. By putting it in the companies who they have influence over, they get more control of the media and what/howoften the user can watch it. When its user-end storage, they have to now try to enforce a much wider population
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The early bird catches the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey | network controled dvr
Lets see, fast forward probably wont work. There will probably be inserted advertisements. Overall its going to lame, and the way comcasts network works now with ondemand. This is no threat. |
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insomniac84
join:2002-01-03
Schererville, IN | Don't forget broadcast flags that will restrict recording to the home shopping channel and the fact that networks will also have the ability to delete any recording the day before the dvd comes out. |
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cowboyro
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
 ·AT&T U-Verse
·Comcast
 ·Optimum Voice
| Not a techical issue storing recordings
There are maybe 15-20 channels that people would record and only for 5-6 hrs a day at most - I don't see any problem with any cable operator recording all these channels and then each user "recording" a channel would be given just a "pointer" to the actual recording. Storing 150-200hrs of content a day for 30 days is fairly easy these days. All that a user would need is a box with a disk cache where content would be stored as needed while viewing a recording in order to prevent network congestion. |
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ISurfTooMuch
join:2007-04-23
Tuscaloosa, AL
| Thinking beyond the DVR
What TiVo needs to do is think beyond the concept of their box merely being a DVR and focus more on IPTV-type services, whether they are live streams or downloaded content. They've done this to an extent with podcasts and streaming radio, but they need to make a big push into this area. Bring that online content onto the TV screen, and TiVo suddenly can offer more than just recorded programs from what the broadcast networks and cable channels are offering.
I realize that the established entertainment companies won't want to put their content on such a service for fear of hurting their traditional distribution channels, but smaller companies will jump at the chance to reach viewers without having to bend over for the established channels. The quality of the content will be all over the place, but that will make watching interesting, and there's no doubt you'll get a wider variety of things to watch than you would on traditional TV. |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| reply to cowboyro
Re: Not a techical issue storing recordings
said by cowboyro  :There are maybe 15-20 channels that people would record and only for 5-6 hrs a day at most - I don't see any problem with any cable operator recording all these channels and then each user "recording" a channel would be given just a "pointer" to the actual recording. Storing 150-200hrs of content a day for 30 days is fairly easy these days. All that a user would need is a box with a disk cache where content would be stored as needed while viewing a recording in order to prevent network congestion. Tivo says:
quote:
cable industry has "total inadequate capacity at this point for broad scale deployment of a network DVR solution," particularly when it comes to the recording and storing of individual HD streams during prime time. That, he said, "is beyond the realm of most cable operators' capacity."
But I agree with you. Recording and storing the streams is hardly an issue at all. If the cable companies have an issue it is finding enough channels to deliver the content to the STB during playback. Dropping analog channels & starting SDV will help, but delivery is the hard part and not storing content on ultracheap disk subsystems.
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| So let's do the run down....
Yep I'd agree storage isn't really the problem. We sell lots of storage & storage virtualization systems. This isn't the issue. Delivery will be the problem they need to cope with.
In terms of TiVo specifically, the networked DVR won't kill off TiVo unless it offers something better than what TiVo can offer itself. And rest assured that regardless of any ruling against them, cablecos will endeavor to make TiVo's life difficult on their networks.
So let's see:
* Monthly price - this is almost a wash today
* Hardware price - long term I'd suspect a wash also but haven't done the math on that, initial sticker shock on TiVo will send some folks to Cable DVR.
* HD support...cable has the upper hand here in my view. TiVo needs cablecards, and we've seen the problems with those. Unless they can handle HD output from the STB into TiVo with no fidelity loss cable wins on this one.
Mux in the SDV issue with cablecard and there you have it.
* Ease of use - TiVo generally wins here. At least on Comcast (I have both a Comcast DVR and TiVo) the DVR interface sucks wind. It is slow and feature poor. TiVo Software on a Comcast Moto DVR was supposed to be coming but honestly I won't hold my breath since it's only been in a couple areas.
* Customer flexibility - TiVo customers have more choice on what they do with the content they record. Hollywood hates this. Cable does too. Add on remote scheduling and all the other extras and TiVo wins here. However, if cable would say add remote scheduling (entirely possible I'd think) and some sort of Slingbox functionality to a head-end DVR and I think they've got a good product. But of course the interface has to be there too.
At least those are my points. Those customers with SDef TiVos who can get HD cable STBs see the difference and might go to a HD DVR cable box. If they try to go to TiVo HD they face potential (not always) cablecard issues.
They're on a knife edge I think, and should have looked to sfw licensing a long time ago. Thing is it would also be feature stripped from what we know & love on TiVo today. I also agree TiVo should also be looking at more networked technology if they intend to stick around much longer.
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TheGlobalMind.com | Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go? | Trust the instinct to the end, though you can render no reason. Ralph Waldo Emerson
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DataDoc
My avatar looks like me, if I was 2D.
Premium
join:2000-05-14
Greenville, NC
·Suddenlink
| So if I record "We're no Angels*" in June, they'll keep it
until I want to watch it in December? And I'll be able to collect an entire season of shows and do a marathon weekend watch? No, of course not. They'll delete them when they want/are told to.
But, since I can use their storage plus my TiVo, I'm all for it.
*The original version, not that DeNiro/Penn crap.
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Death is my bread and danger my butter. Oh, no, danger's my bread, and death is my butter. No, no, wait. Danger's my bread, death- no, death is- no, I'm sorry. Death is my- death and danger are my various breads and various butters. |
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jwersan
R.I.P. Mom, Brian, Ziggy, and Max.
Premium
join:2004-12-20
Port Jefferson Station, NY
clubs:
·Optimum Online
|  It's NOT going to work...
While I don't doubt their testing worked, if this is rolled out to the general subscribers, it is going to fail miserably...
While they can treat each recording for storage purposes quite well, considering they only need one copy of the program to serve their entire client base.
How are they going to handle fifty or sixty people trying to pause, rewind, or fast forward the same program without blowing out their available bandwidth?
If they issue some type of set top box to "buffer" the program, how can this be cost effective then?
As I see it, for each unique program that is stored, they are essentially going to need to dedicate a "channel" to each program to effectively handle the numerous possible requests they get. Not everyone is going to be watching last nights episode of "24" at the same time, nor on the same day.
While many people only watch about fifteen channels, not everyone watches the same fifteen, so in essence they have to plan to record all of the channels, all day, even if one one person is ultimately going to be watching it.
This can turn into quite a storage issue for them.
I don't see how this will be better, ultimately, than having your own set top DVR...
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RIAA/MPAA... Bite me!!!!
In constant search for intelligent life on Earth! |
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Cancel Cable
@comcast.net
| Cancel CableTV
Did you see www.thewb.com launched.
Now when you want via the net and for free you can watch tons of free legal content through wb, www.hulu.com , www.abc.com (sucky interface needs tons of work) and joost (needs to be in the browser... users dont care about P2P).
Forget cable TV it's out dated....Tivo should build the web into it's product. |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| Nothing to fear
Networked DVR's require extensive resources and network buildout if this ever became popular.
It would be cheaper to buy all the customers Tivo's rather than build out the network to support streaming all that TV down to customers.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
1 edit | reply to Cancel Cable
Re: Cancel CableTV
i dont understand either why tivo, doesnt add apps for hulu, and abc, etc. They would bypass cable completely, which for the networks would be a good deal. |
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cowboyro
join:2000-10-11
Shelton, CT
·AT&T U-Verse
·Comcast
·Optimum Voice
| reply to jwersan
Re: It's NOT going to work...
said by jwersan :How are they going to handle fifty or sixty people trying to pause, rewind, or fast forward the same program without blowing out their available bandwidth? If they issue some type of set top box to "buffer" the program, how can this be cost effective then? Storage is cheap... flash cards sell for 4GB@$10... Just buffer a good chunk of the show...
Hell this whole network DVR could enable viewers to watch a show they missed and didn't even record... |
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Anon TW Suber
@rr.com
| If the current interface is any indication...
then how responsive do you think the GUI will be for this and the load times as my experience in Los Angeles is that it is dogged gone erratic. Sometimes it will work flawlessly, then change the channel once more, and then the HD DVR unit becomes unresponsive for a few seconds while it downloads the info, I think. If they want people to use the bandwidth they offer, then I'd rather TW just keep the current infrastructure now (ie. local DVR) and give us more HD channels!!! |
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nukscull
@rr.com
| reply to NOCMan
Re: Nothing to fear
said by NOCMan :Networked DVR's require extensive resources and network buildout if this ever became popular. It would be cheaper to buy all the customers Tivo's rather than build out the network to support streaming all that TV down to customers. Cable companies stream everything to customers already. What build outs would they need?
They already have the QAMs to put the channels on. The Network DVR would just operate the same as VOD does now. A group of centralized servers with all of the recorded video, video is streamed to GQAMs and the video is put on a digital channel and sent over RF down to the customer's cable box.
The only changes they'll need to make are already being made with SDV. SDV frees up channels, and they'll need more channels so more people can watch their DVR'd shows at the same time. |
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pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland
·ooma
·Future Nine Corpor..
·Comcast
|  reply to morbo
Re: price, usability, features
My DirecTV HR21 DVR's are able to record live program streams from satellite OR to record streams hosted on an Internet server by DirecTV. You can download content over internet by station, if you subscribe to the station you want to download the content from it is often available to you at no additional cost.
In my opinion DirecTV is already selling a network capable DVR. I am a bit perplexed that this is even much of a story. My understanding is the DirecTV system is legal, and run with the knowledge, consent and management of the content providers.
I'd also add it rocks! Plug a 1 TB drive into an HR21 and you've got a ton of content to store locally.
My hope is one day the HR21 can serve other HR21's and also PC's on my LAN. Allowing LAN network serving of all content legally obtained on any networked capable display device on my LAN would be great.
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." |
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GlobalMind
Domino Dude, POWER Systems Guy
Premium
join:2001-10-29
Hollywood, FL
| reply to DataDoc
Re: So if I record "We're no Angels*" in June, they'll keep it
said by DataDoc :until I want to watch it in December? And I'll be able to collect an entire season of shows and do a marathon weekend watch? No, of course not. They'll delete them when they want/are told to. Good point, should have thought of that for my post. You know dang well you won't be able to keep those recordings too long. |
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Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL | We need home networked DRV systems with 1 big box and mini b
We need home networked DRV systems with 1 big box and mini box on each tv.
The cable co need this they can just put more shows on VOD to get the same thing. |
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nightdesigns
Gone missing, back soon
Premium
join:2002-05-31
AZ
·Cox HSI
| reply to ISurfTooMuch
Re: Thinking beyond the DVR
Tivo missed the ball on this one. While they are connected with amazon unbox, they should have taken the netflix/roku project. The tivo already had the hardware and the network connection, they should have just added the ability to pair with netflix. I have a tivo, actually 2, and now i have a roku. Netflix gain, Tivo's loss.
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This Space for Rent... |
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