catboy
join:2000-10-22
Portland, OR
|  Score!
This sounds very interesting. I wonder if the picture & sound quality is like.
I live in the test market, yet I have not heard of this or the ISPs involved. I would love to give this a try.
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You don't know what you don't know until you don't know it. |
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
|  This is what ADSL was designed for!
That annoying interleaving junk that comes on ADSL lines is due to the original intention of delivering video over the DSL line-- go figure! What kind of data rate has to be maintained though to deliver true DVD or HDTV video? I doubt this will become very popular, but who knows! |
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JYoung
G L 2814
join:2000-06-13
Sherman Oaks, CA | Broadband movies
I sense that Justin is salivating at the prospect....
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If you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts, then repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" |
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JYoung
G L 2814
join:2000-06-13
Sherman Oaks, CA
| reply to Jerm
Re: This is what ADSL was designed for!
I think that this is just the first step.
The next model will have movies downloaded to Tivo/Replay type boxes that can watched at the user's leisure...
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If you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts, then repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" |
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justin
Australian
join:1999-05-28
Brooklyn, NY
Host:
IPv6
Business Connectiv..
Home/Office setup ..
Console/Handheld g..
Console Tech
| You know that would be nice, but I bet they don't do it. TIVO is well and truly cracked open by Linux enthusiasts and blockbuster would have nightmare visions of every movie in their catalog getting passed around in high quality form on the net thanks to TIVO people with screwdrivers and determination.
It would be nice to see them get together with sony and pump the data into the back of the PS2. |
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mrdialup
join:2000-07-30
Fayetteville, AR
| I doubt this hits Fayetteville, Arkansas
Wohhh bety! I read about that in a CBT (Computer Based Training Course) I have on xDSL (by they way, if anyone wants that CBT Course on xDSL, just e-mail me and I will e-mail you the CBT Player and xDSL Course; about a 6Mb e-mail). It sounds interesting. I would love to be in that beta testing area, our area just got Cable and DSL! I guess it will be about another 20 years before that hits Fayetteville, Arkansas.
Just to update everyone. I am having great problems sending the course, if you have a zip disk, I can ensure you get the course.
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I want DSL!
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I want DSL!
[text was edited by author 2000-12-22 23:15:57] |
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lml2000
Whazzup
join:2000-08-17
Los Angeles, CA
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to Jerm
Re: This is what ADSL was designed for!
First, one must make a distinction between video-on-demand (VOD) and multichannel broadcast. Single channel VOD can be accomplished quite easily over a 6 Mbps. Multichannel broadcast requires in the neighborhood of 30-35 Mbps, I believe, and as result would require a VDSL platform that is predicated upon much shorter copper loops, let's say about 1,500 to 2,500 feet. Where there is no VDSL, there will be no multichannel broadcast. However, where there is only DSL, there can be VOD, but I believe a 4-5 Mbps connection is necessary.
If you study Project Pronto's architecture you would note that if desired, a subscriber can chalk up extra cash and get a 6 Mbps asymmetric downstream connection rather than the basic 1.5 Mbps. However, regardless of your subscription rate, on a switched basis your 1.5 Mbps DSL connection DSLAM'd to your ISP's POP can be upsized to a 6 Mbps and re-routed to a video server such as Blockbuster's and reading to pump a video-bit stream to your TV monitor . . . on demand. You can pause, rewind, etc. With the aid of local buffering , the actual content can either be delivered from a remote server or stored locally on a hard drive for your TEMPORARY use.
When you talk about DVD or HDTV video, do you know what you are really referring to? Most in the business refer to DVD as delivering a 480p (p=progressive) picture. This is in contrast to standard TV, which is 480i (i=interlaced), and HDTV which comes in 780p and 1080i formats. But really, at this point in time, when we are talking about VOD, which is streaming bits of data down over a DSL connection, why even consider HD? We'll get there, but first things first. The MSOs are loathe to deliver HD signals over their pipes because of the bandwidth it sucks up at the cost of other programming, and therefore advertising. HD is limited right now, and IMHO, will be in the foreseeable future until broadcasters are forced to drop analog broadcasting by 2008, I believe.
Nevertheless, VOD over DSL is the first step toward the ultimate HD video goal. But remember, Rome was not built overnight.
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Regards,
lml |
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lml2000
Whazzup
join:2000-08-17
Los Angeles, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to justin
Interesting comments, Justin. I, for one, am convinced, and have been for over a year now, that stand alone TiVo and Replay boxes will be non-existent in not-so-distant future. Where will they go? Subsumed into a satellite receiver (ie. DirecTiVo) or MSO-provided digital set-top box. Why? Content security.
I cannot imagine any studio licensing the distribution of its most valued content over the Internet in digital format for all TiVo-like hacker to copy onto hard drives then illegally and freely distribute over the Internet much akin to a Napster or Scour-like setup. So, while TiVo hackers are able to copy what is recordable today, free of restrictions, they will likely not have that same ease when murch more valued content, such as that delivered via pay-per-view will be controlled and monitored if delivered in VOD format.
Some current news on this subject. http://www.multichannel.com/daily/14d.shtml
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Regards,
lml |
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dru
join:2000-09-14
Corona, CA
| reply to Jerm
Well, HDTV, IMHO, is still "over the rainbow" and even though it is starting to appear, I think that any DSL or broadband delivery system will be lucky to push VHS-quality signals to customers, such as the typical video-on-demand systems in hotel rooms.
I know I am glossing over and over-simplifying details, but here's what I understand about video. As an example and reference, Digital satellite system (DISH and DirecTV) use variable data rates of around 4mbits to produce full 30fps pictures using MPEG2 with stereo. The pictures are far from HDTV and artifacts are visible, but quality is respectable. I have also seen full-motion video using MPEG1 compression with data rates of 1.4mbits and if you're not too picky (VHS running 6 hour mode looks OK to you) it's watchable. Most digital cable systems also use compression to squeeze more channels within the spectrum available.
Standard North American TV (Analog NTSC video) requires 6mhz per channel, roughly analogous to 6mbits. However, when you sample and quantize an analog video signal into digital, it can take (depending on original signal quality) 50 to 80mbits of bandwidth to record or transmit an UN-compressed signal.
Definitely, there are ADSL products that, provided they are working and provisioned properly, would support decent-quality compressed video signals suitable for watching movies.
While "this is what ADSL was meant for" we seem to always have to go through the crawl phase before we walk phase.
My questions and concerns would be:
1. What bandwidth/data rate are they running? Are the pictures sent "real time" or are they buffering to hard disk/memory? (by giving a stream at least a few minutes of buffered "head start" more quality could be obtained by averaging out the scenes, which vary in data needed after compression)
2. I am sure their first DSL "Partners" are those who can provision 4-8mb ADSL and have local video servers rather than relying on internet bandwidth, but do they have their own facilities? For example, the typical central office DSLAM setup may not have enough back-end bandwidth to support hundreds of broadband video streams over ATM, at least not the current implementations.
3. How do they deal with data rates and distance limits? Or do these systems generally only work with multi-tenant/multi-dwelling situations (big apartment complexes)?
It occurs to me that people in the "test markets" have never heard of the mentioned ISP "partners" because they are "in-house" MDU vendors or ones with developer contracts to offer exclusive services in specific housing tracts.
[text was edited by author 2000-12-21 01:22:30] |
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Commienst
join:2000-06-24
Dover, NJ
| I like yahoo Broadcast.com better
Even though I have not used this Blockbuster service I think it is cool how at broadcast.com you can stream movies for free (the trial lets you get 2 movies free a week, but my hunch is that deal will only be there for the trial). They have short ads in the beginning the only problem with broadcast.com though is their selection of movies is reall small currently. You would figure a billion dollar corporation like yahoo would be able to buy the rights to lots of movies so they can show them at broadcast.com. At 300k the quality is not that bad. |
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Anon | At just a smidge under 100k
Has anyone here seen divx played on a tv? I think it looks better than satellite and as good as VHS. Most movies have combined audio and video bitrates at around 100kilobytes/sec. I have "The Cell" that is very good quality that the total bitrate is 99k. Divx looks schweet on a nice tv. Forget Tivo hacking... |
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sdfdf
@bellatlantic.com | Verizon
I know Verizon is doing trials for this in certain areas and only with customers with their highest package (7.1). |
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JYoung
G L 2814
join:2000-06-13
Sherman Oaks, CA
| reply to justin
Re: This is what ADSL was designed for!
Due to the technical requirements of VOD, I think that downloading the movie (perhaps in some type of encrypted MPEG 4 format) would be a more wide reaching solution.
A few months back, I shared a flight with a gentleman who works for an Entertainment distribution business. He was coming back from the broadcastor's convention in New Orleans and was telling me that one of the hot topics was delivering movies over the Internet to the consumer. He told me that one option was downloading it to a TIVO/Replay Type box (not the TIVO/Replay that's sold but the same idea).
Of course anything that can be downloaded could be cracked but......
perhaps they'll feed it to an X Box instead.....
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If you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts, then repeat to yourself "it's just a show, I should really just relax" |
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lml2000
Whazzup
join:2000-08-17
Los Angeles, CA
·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to dru
Good critical post, dru. A couple comments.
HDTV
I would not even begin to address HDTV over DSL at this point. Most likely it will never happen. Even the MSOs are loathe to deliver HD over their pipes. Presently, HD is going to be limited to satellite and over-the-air transmission. Until this market more fully develops, I don't expect the MSOs to budge an inch. The economics of HD make it economical for bandwidth constrained MSOs to push HD. DSL is no different, and arguably, even more constrained. Also note that HD over DBS is already available. DirecTV offers 2 channels, one HBO, the other pay-per-view, each broadcasted from a different satellite, so one needs an elliptical dish equipped with special LNB as well as a special digital receiver that is designed to decode the HD signals into analog for viewing. But all this does not preclude the eventual migration to pure or "standard" digital TV.
VOD over DSL
It is indisputable that the video content will be delivered in compressed format. Uncompressed format is just not going to happen, and is just not economical. Content will be delivered, most likely from remote video servers deployed deep in the loop as far as what I would term "premium" content is concerned. I just don't think the studios are going to offer their most valuable IP into the home where it can be stored onto a hard drive and subject to copyright infringement by very motivated hackers. Imagine the monetary damages to the studio and the artists if just one recent studio release is downloaded onto a TiVo, hacked onto a hard drive, then duplicated and distributed over the Internet. I just think the risks today are too great. In light of this I foresee remote video servers offering bit streams that are buffered onsite.
As I disclosed elsewhere on DSLReports, my loop is not being outfitted with an OC-12 from which 2 OC-3s will feed into the several neighborhood gateways along the loop. The question is where along this ring would a video server likely be installed and capable of meeting the downstream demand of all subs along the loop? As you note, VOD from the gateway to the subscriber's premises will be delivered over a DSL connection that should accommodate 3-4 Mbps of bandwidth. If your familiar with SBC's Pronto project, you will not that though basis DSL service up to 1.5 Mbps, the architecture can provide up to 6 Mbps, if the customer wants to pay a premium for a continuous connection. But, because of the use of SVCs, the customer will also be able to "fatten" his pipe on a temporary switched basis to accommodate a VOD bit stream. With "up to 6 Mbps," VOD requiring 3-4 Mbps will offer a good quality feed.
With respect to MDUs, you present an interesting issue. Possibly, for large MDUs we might even see a video server onsite but locked in a secure room away from the sub where the content is at least "physically" secure.
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Regards,
lml |
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infou
@Seattle1.L
|  RE: copyright infringment
Speaking of downloading and distributing copyrighted material, check for articles on http://www.theregister.uk.co regarding new hard drive specifications to limit copying of material from one disk to another. Content providers are already working on ways to limit copyright infringment. Unfortunately it will be at our expense. It is stated that systems with the new protection will be incompatible with those that don't, particularly in multi-pc environments. This is because new software will be needed to authenticate copies. It goes as far as limiting users from restoring a backup to a new disk after a crash. And of course the dishonest people will still find ways around it. Hard drives with this technology are expected as early as next summer. |
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toddr7
join:2000-12-29
American Fork, UT
| reply to catboy
Re: Score!
This does sound very interesting, and I live in the test market as well. Switchpoint (www.airswitch.com) is a local Utah ISP that uses unique technology to tap a synchronous 100 Mbit ethernet connection directly into their fiber backbone without signal loss. (!) I just got it installed, finally, last week, and it is EXTREMELY fast--I have seen d/l speeds as high as 47 Mbit so far (I d/loaded an 83 MByte file in 15 seconds!) Quite a change from dial-up, to say the least. The only (huge) problem is that you have to be fortunate enough to live near thier backbones--currently only available in Springville and American Fork, Utah. (Both towns are about 40 miles south of Salt Lake--I assume Yahoo was just using the nearest large city as a reference.) I will look into getting the Blockbuster service and will post the results if I become a test candidate. I don't think bandwidth will be a problem on my end, so it should be a pretty good test of their service, available quality, etc.
[text was edited by author 2001-01-03 00:53:31] |
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