russotto
join:2000-10-05
Collegeville, PA
| Bureaucracy or safety?
So did they ever figure out if this is a real problem or if it's a collision of old codes with new technology?
If Verizon is running non-metallic optical cable into the customer premises, any grounding or bonding is about as important as teats on a boar. |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
 ·Hollis Hosting
 ·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| said by russotto  : If Verizon is running non-metallic optical cable into the customer premises, any grounding or bonding is about as important as teats on a boar. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Some fiber cable include conductor to facilitate tracing even though they are not required for data transmission. However: I think Verizon drop cables are completely nonmetallic.
The lack of metallic conductor exiting the building means ONT is no different then any other electrical device. ONT is powered by three-wire grounded AC feed. I assume (but don't know for sure) that AC safety ground extends from power supply to ONT.
/tom |
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tshirt
Premium,MVM
join:2004-07-11
Snohomish, WA
 ·Comcast
2 edits | If there was no safety hazard, Then the code should be changed. Still not a excuse for not following the current code today.
if it's an externally mounted powered device, then it MUST be properly grounded. If the power points are at all accessable, then it should be on a GFCI (this could be a problem for the ONT) that certainly goes beyond the pictures I've seen of even a good fios install.
Just because it's fiber optic, it doesn't mean it's totally non-metalic, most "self-supporting" drop cable have a support wire, either metal or fiber glass, to carry the weight/strain, something you can't do with optical fiber, without damaging it. Even a totally non'metalic drop can become the best available conductor for static, lightning, or the accidental short (dropped power line) and create a hazard. |
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pende_tim
Premium
join:2004-01-04
Andover, NJ
·ProLog
 ·ViaTalk
·Verizon Online DSL
| reply to tschmidt
I am not sure of the grounding/bonding requirements on telco gear but.....
I have a fire/smoke/intrusion alarm panel in my basement that is connected to a dialup monitoring service. That panel has a ground lug in it with instructions to connect to a cold water pipe. The panel is fed from a large 12 volt "wall wort" transformer that plugs into a u ground outlet.
Tim
--
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits. |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
| reply to tschmidt
said by tschmidt :said by russotto : If Verizon is running non-metallic optical cable into the customer premises, any grounding or bonding is about as important as teats on a boar. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Some fiber cable include conductor to facilitate tracing even though they are not required for data transmission. However: I think Verizon drop cables are completely nonmetallic. It's a safety ground for internal wiring, not just for the incoming drop. The grounding isn't necessary per se for the ONT, but for all the things that get connected to the ONT. TVs and VCRs are notorious for leaking AC onto the coax shield. The proper grounding just gives a better path for the current to safely dissipate rather then through you if you should happen to contact the wire.
Is it a huge safety issue? No. Is your house going to burn down? Not likely. Are there thousands of existing telephone and cable drops that are improperly grounded across the country (and not just Verizon's fault)? Definitely. Is it worth doing correctly? Yes.
said by tschmidt :The lack of metallic conductor exiting the building means ONT is no different then any other electrical device. ONT is powered by three-wire grounded AC feed. I assume (but don't know for sure) that AC safety ground extends from power supply to ONT. I'd have to double check, but I thought my ONT's power supply was powered by just a polarized 2-prong connector. If that is the case, the actual power supply is just a variation wall-wart transformer and does not have a ground. |
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skuv
@rr.com
| reply to russotto
Doesn't everyone know that the FIOS ONT's have coax in them?
This is copper, and carries an electric signal, and must be grounded, just like the cable company must ground their coax.
Why do people keep thinking the whole thing is fiber? |
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Lee GWB
Yaco
Premium
join:2001-10-13
Allendale, NJ | You Sir have won the $66,000 Question |
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kayak1
@verizon.com | fios grounding
Then how come they dont revisit all the cable co. installs? Most of them are'nt grounded properly either. |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to skuv
Re: Bureaucracy or safety?
said by skuv :
Doesn't everyone know that the FIOS ONT's have coax in them?
Why do people keep thinking the whole thing is fiber?
The main safety issue is whether or not copper exits the building. FYI, internally the ONT has more then just coax interface, it also has twisted pair for Ethernet and voice.
If you hook up a rabbit ear indoor antenna it does not need to be grounded just because it uses coax. The purpose of grounding/bonding is protection from foreign induced voltage. Wiring that exits the building is vulnerable to this either from lightning or power crosses. I agree with cdru that most consumer AV equipment is two-wire rather then three-wire (safety ground) as such it is likely there will be some leakage to coax shield. However if leakage current results in dangerous levels of voltage on the coax bonding ONT reduces but does not eliminate danger since disconnecting coax from ONT also removes ground.
If what cdru posted is correct that ONT power supply uses a two wire plug then the only source of safety ground is bonding ONT to residential ground system.
Regardless - having a high quality ground improves safety, often reduces susceptible to RF interference, and is best practice.
/tom |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| reply to kayak1
Re: fios grounding
said by kayak1 :
Then how come they dont revisit all the cable co. installs? That seems to be a common problem - Cablecos not using coax ground block bonded to residential ground system at point of entry.
Have run into that with several friend. Due to common use of Multi Grounded Neutral (MGN) by utilities there can be substantial difference in potential between utility ground and residential ground.
We had a lengthy discussion about this in the Electronics forum. »Current being induced by cable system
If you are interested in the gory details:
»www.mikeholt.com/documents/stray···3-03.pdf
/tom |
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mrchris
We don't miss you Bush
Premium
join:2002-10-01
North Babylon, NY | reply to kayak1
It seems they care more about having them quickly installed to minimize costs, cheap bastards! |
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PDXPLT
join:2003-12-04
Banks, OR
| reply to russotto
Re: Bureaucracy or safety?
It's a convenient way for FIOS competitors and anti-FIOS entities to beat them up. The bonding requirements in Article 810 and 820 of the National Electric Code are quite specific, and alot of installs, even if they are bonded somehow to the house system ground, are not done strictly to Code. I'd guess about 90% of the DBS satellite installs I've seen are not to Code (e.g., dish bonded to nearby light fixture, rather than one of the locations listed in Artical 810). |
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brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH | Not Grounded?=Hack Installer
Doesn't matter whether the ONT needs to be grounded or not.(it does by the way). The lazy hack install technician did not do his job in the first place. |
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FastiBook
join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA
 ·Verizon FIOS
| Grounding?
The whole system is grounded through the power source. It has 3 prongs, not 2. What would grounding it 2x do?
In 2004 i was still using verizon dsl before we switched to fios later that year. One afternoon i was on the phone with me mum & talking about what to do for dinner. Right in the middle of the conversation there was a flash of light & the phone went dead. Moments later very loud thunder. For 2 days i had a metallic taste in my mouth. Needless to say i was a bit shaken up when i connected the dots.
FIOS does not have conductor running from its street boxes, just a standard double strand fiber line. The power comes from inside the home, which is or by code should be grounded. Not only that, but also unlike copper based POTS, the outlet you plug the power source into has a circuit breaker (or in some older homes a fuse). So it's grounded AND has a circuit breaker. Not only this, but the one ours is hooked to is a ground fault interrupt style breaker which is designed to save people, not just avoid an overload.
If they wanna waste $ putting in grounding stuff hey thats all find & good, but in 99.9% of cases it shouldn't be needed.
- A
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LETS GO METS! |
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Pathfinder
Dazed Confused
Premium
join:2000-03-26
Mount Vernon, NY | reply to kayak1
Re: fios grounding
They may be yet. I understand that the inspectors from Verizon are also noting sub-standard cable installations to present to the commission. |
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brainlessdog
join:2005-11-30
Portsmouth, NH
| reply to FastiBook
Re: Grounding?
You are 100% wrong. The first ONTs that were placed used a two prong plug. The ONTs need to be grounded according to the installation specs. In the copper world, no ground, no service. The installers are too lazy, incompetent, stupid, or whatever you like. |
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tschmidt
Premium,MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Hollis Hosting
·Verizon Online DSL
·Fairpoint Communic..
| said by brainlessdog :The first ONTs that were placed used a two prong plug. The ONTs need to be grounded according to the installation specs. Interesting sounds like there are multiple flavors of ONT.
Even with a 3-wired grounded plug having a real bonding jumper to building ground it better then using the plug. That being said if copper does not extend outside the building how important is grounding?
No disagreement the installer should have done whatever the installation procedure called for but I'm trying to understand if this is really a safety hazard or not.
/tom |
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u3912974
join:2007-07-31
San Francisco, CA | reply to russotto
Re: Bureaucracy or safety?
I think better grounding for my cable tv helped an issue i was having with picture quality. |
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anon10101101
@verizon.net | reply to tschmidt
Re: Grounding?
Its not a safety issue , bonding the ONT protects the equip if wires become energized by lighting. That number 10 ground wire which is standard practice wont do squat if you take a major lighting hit or power surge. |
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BlueConnect
join:2004-04-02
FFX, VA
| Tellabs ONT
I can not speak for anyone else but my Tellabs 1611 ONT has a 12VDC (14.82) feed from the VDC/battery charger that receives a 48VDC feed from the AC/DC converter. The AC side of the converter is supplied via a standard 120VAC grounded service. Since the ONT is DC powered it does not require a ground to function but the return side of the VDC is usually tied to ground for reference and the ONT does produce a RF signal, that service usually requires a reference ground. Also there are status signals that go between the ONT and VDC/charger. These may also require a reference, not saying they are RS-232 but they are unbalanced and may be similar. |
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