 
hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA | It seems to me... that they are spending a lot of $$$ on this throttling stuff. Im gonna assume that it will be a waste of $$$ in the next few years. My guess is that they will eventually abandon the throttling nonsense. | |
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tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO
clubs: | Re: It seems to me... makes ya wonder what it would cost them to just upgrade their network instead... | |
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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000 | Re: It seems to me... There would be a substantial difference in what it would cost to implement QOS vs. building out more infrastructure. | |
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cho0b
join:2006-09-26
united state
| Re: It seems to me... That's right! And it would actually be WORTH IT to do the latter!
Let's not split hairs here; These ISPs are NOT losing money due to high bandwidth users. They are trying to SQUEEZE every penny they can out of customers without keeping the service up to speed with world standards.
Sooner or later they will be tripping over themselves because of the piss poor infrastructure maintenance while trying to catch up to the few providers that are investing in their companies. | |
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battleop
join:2005-09-28
00000 | Re: It seems to me... Piss poor infrastructure maintenance is running an un-managed network. Good network management is running is managing your network elements while adding capacity at a rate your finances will allow. | |
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LeftOfSanity
join:2005-11-06
Felton, DE | Re: It seems to me... Wasting your breath on that one. lol | |
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fishmaster
Premium
join:2004-10-08
Rockford, IL | They too busy spending the money on 'social websites', Buildings, extravagant lcd displays, ceos and the like to really invest in what is necessary or practical
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Browse A lot - Sign In Little - Post Even Less | |
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jlivingood
Premium,VIP
join:2007-10-28
Philadelphia, PA
| said by tiger72  :makes ya wonder what it would cost them to just upgrade their network instead... The new congestion management system does NOT substitute for or obviate the need for normal network upgrades - so you are correct. Growing and upgrading our network continues as a normal course of business.
We continue to improve the network in accordance with our plans, including node splits, our rollout of DOCSIS 3.0, etc. One of the reasons we believe our new congestion management practices affect so few users* is because our capacity management model and processes are working well.
* The average percentage of customers that had their traffic managed on any particular day ranged from 0.09% to 0.60% in our trial markets. There were some days in each market where no customer traffic was affected.
Jason
Comcast
National Engineering & Technical Operations
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JL
Comcast | |
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| | | willp1
Premium
join:2003-12-19
Las Cruces, NM | Re: It seems to me... I would like see the actual figures not the one what comcast came up with. After all the experience with Comcast. I believe they live in fantasy world... | |
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| | | | jester121
Premium
join:2003-08-09
Lake Zurich, IL | Re: It seems to me... You're welcome to either apply for a job there or buy the company; otherwise it's none of your business.  | |
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jmn1207
Premium
join:2000-07-19
Reston, VA | I appreciate you stopping by and providing more specific details on this new plan. It's a step in the right direction, in my opinion. | |
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| | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by jlivingood :We continue to improve the network in accordance with our plans, including node splits, our rollout of DOCSIS 3.0, etc. One of the reasons we believe our new congestion management practices affect so few users* is because our capacity management model and processes are working well. Do you get paid extra for monitoring sites like this one and spewing feel-good Comcrap PR, or do you do it for free? | |
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jlivingood
Premium,VIP
join:2007-10-28
Philadelphia, PA
| Re: It seems to me... said by SilverSurfer :said by jlivingood :We continue to improve the network in accordance with our plans, including node splits, our rollout of DOCSIS 3.0, etc. One of the reasons we believe our new congestion management practices affect so few users* is because our capacity management model and processes are working well. Do you get paid extra for monitoring sites like this one and spewing feel-good Comcrap PR, or do you do it for free? Ha, funny. I just work in engineering (ask Robb - met him f2f at an IETF workshop at MIT) and my interest is in seeing that the technical information about this program is accurate and correct since it is one of the projects I am a part of.
Take care,
Jason
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JL
Comcast | |
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join:2007-08-19
| Re: It seems to me... said by jlivingood :[...] my interest is in seeing that the technical information about this program is accurate and correct since it is one of the projects I am a part of. Notwithstanding your happy face benevolence, your comments are still just an attempt to spread warm-fuzzy corporate BS approved by Comcrap. You ain't foolin' anyone around these here parts but the corporate shills, bud. | |
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| | | pandora
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Outland | Are Comcast HSI business users throttled? | |
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S_engineer
join:2007-05-16
Chicago, IL
 ·Comcast
| said by jlivingood :said by tiger72 :makes ya wonder what it would cost them to just upgrade their network instead... The new congestion management system does NOT substitute for or obviate the need for normal network upgrades - so you are correct. "The new congestion management system" = the Comcast Consumer Contract Circumvention Method!
Comcast..."we oversold it, now you cant use it as much!" | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| Re: It seems to me... said by S_engineer :said by jlivingood :said by tiger72 :makes ya wonder what it would cost them to just upgrade their network instead... The new congestion management system does NOT substitute for or obviate the need for normal network upgrades - so you are correct. Comcast..."we oversold it, now you cant use it as much!" LMAO  | |
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Cabal
Premium
join:2007-01-21
Boston, MA
| Network traffic grows to fill all available pipes until a constraint is hit, unless instructed otherwise. That's how TCP/IP was designed. Widening the pipe just means a larger pipe to congest.
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Do you care about network neutrality, the right to privacy, or patent system abuse? Obama used to. | |
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Splitpair
Premium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
 ·T-Mobile US
| said by tiger72 :makes ya wonder what it would cost them to just upgrade their network instead... Because there is a huge difference between capex and opex. Understand the reason for that and the answer as to why they're doing what they're doing becomes quite clear.
Wayne
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If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some beanies you ain't a technician.
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX
| Hate to play devil's advocate here.
The throttling is basically free. Most network equipment of that price range has it included. You can easily make QOS policies that watch specific ip's and stick them in various buckets depending on usage profiles.
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Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net | |
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hopeflicker
Capitalism breeds greed
Premium
join:2003-04-03
Long Beach, CA
| Re: It seems to me... said by NOCMan :Hate to play devil's advocate here. The throttling is basically free. Most network equipment of that price range has it included. You can easily make QOS policies that watch specific ip's and stick them in various buckets depending on usage profiles. The article talks about new hardware:
According to Comcast, they'll be deploying new hardware and software close to the company's Regional Network Routers (RNRs). | |
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NOCMan
Verizon Fios User
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Flower Mound, TX | Re: It seems to me... And they would admit that they've always had the capability to do what they're doing?
And even if they are doing this, they're just wasting money then. | |
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jlivingood
Premium,VIP
join:2007-10-28
Philadelphia, PA
| While this article labels this a throttling system, that is not a technically accurate description of it. It is a QoS-based system for managing congestion. Users are not throttled to a specific speed, which is what calling this a throttling system would mean IMHO.
Jason
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JL
Comcast | |
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| | lordofwhee
join:2007-10-21
Everett, WA
| Re: It seems to me... Just because a specific speed isn't spelled out doesn't mean it isn't throttling. Whether through QoS priority or hard caps, the speed of a particular customer is being artificially slowed. THAT is the definition of throttling.
Also: how much does Comcast pay you? | |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC |  Good Start
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Linux Haters Unite! | |
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iansltx_
@spcsdns.net | Re: Good Start Or watching HD video. An HD download of more than fifteen minutes would pretty much put you over the limit. Or a regular iTunes movie download. | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: Good Start said by iansltx_ :
Or watching HD video. An HD download of more than fifteen minutes would pretty much put you over the limit. Or a regular iTunes movie download.
But ONLY if you are on a congested node. | |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
| said by iansltx_ :
Or watching HD video. An HD download of more than fifteen minutes would pretty much put you over the limit. Or a regular iTunes movie download.
No it wouldn't ... did you look at the flowchart? This only checks your UPSTREAM utilization .... there is no mention of downstream usage.
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Linux Haters Unite! | |
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| | stevephl
join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO
·Comcast
| Since the soon to be implemented cap is set at 250GB, you are saying that in fifteen minutes you have reached this limit? Wow must be an awesome movie if it's that large but really the bigger issue here is that you are even able to download a 250GB file in 15 minutes. Hey Jason of Comcast why am I don't seeing these speeds on my service here in Colorado Springs? Wow this would equate to 16GB per minute download I feel cheated.
Do these gigabyte speeds come at premium pricing? | |
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Pingmeister
| said by Matt :I think this is a good start. It's going to hit some people who transfer large files pretty hard I bet ... tele-workers, digital photographers .... Which I do on occasion, however I throttle myself when I need to do large transfers, and I use QoS by default at my edge anyway. I try to be sure that I don't cause anyone any problems, and if Comcast is going to do this, it looks like it will be as fair as anything I can think of in the short term. If I was in charge of the show, this is probably what I would have done, although I would have done it some time ago. | |
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ender7074
join:2006-11-21
Saint Louis, MO
·AT&T Southeast
| So... I pay for a speed. If I actually use the full amount of the speed I'm paying for, I'm in the wrong. This is just unbelievable. Will they give discounts for not using all of the "alloted bandwith"? I bet we all know the answer to that. This is nothing more than selling one thing and delivering another. | |
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DaMaGeINC
The Lan Man
Premium
join:2002-06-08
Greenville, SC
clubs: | Quesion. Wouldent that mean that one huge download would screw them? | |
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ninjatutle
Premium
join:2006-01-02
San Ramon, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
1 edit | umm yeah "Comcast claims they saw no complaints in trial markets. "To date, Comcast has yet to receive a single customer complaint in any of the trial markets that can be traced to the new congestion management practices, despite having broadly publicized its trials," says the company."
They complained with their feets. Walked over to new service.
Couldn't they do all this throttling without the capage for the rest of the well behaved users?
Shame on your Comcast  I hope someone eggs all of your houses. | |
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NetAdmin
CCNA
join:2008-05-22
| This seems reasonable... Targeting only users who use the most bandwidth on only congested nodes is a very reasonable method of keeping the network functioning at a reasonable level. As long as this type of management isn't used as a crutch to delay node splits and plant upgrades any longer than necessary, it is hard to argue with this method.
One thing I didn't see was if this change affects business users...
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Eleven years of carrying The Clue Bat... | |
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FastiBook
join:2003-01-08
Newtown, PA | 15 minutes? Are you kidding me? This will kill people using youtube & itunes store. One more reason we're looking to escape to fios tv.
- A
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LETS GO METS! | |
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Lazlow
join:2006-08-07
Saint Louis, MO
| Reasonable IF they done honestly I think this is a reasonable temporary solution as long as they do it honestly. As long as they do not use it as an excuse to slow down upgrades I guess I would be ok with it.
What does not make sense to me is the 250gb caps. The argument for caps has always been that the so called bandwidth hogs are slowing down everybody else. Now with this new throttling this is no longer possible. So why the caps? Could it be that they want to prevent other video competition? Wouldn't that effectively be against network neutrality? | |
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fireflier
Coffee. . .Need Coffee
Premium
join:2001-05-25
Limbo
 ·Skype
| 15 minutes cumulatively or in a row? I assume that 15 minute spec is "in-a-row" and not cumulative for the month or some other time period? Does that mean someone could use it full out for just under 15 minutes, stop for a while and then go full out again for just under 15 minutes?
15 minutes seems a little stingy but then again, it looks like the CMTS has to be congested before the other factors apply anyway so it may not be that bad.
Certainly seems better than across-the-board traffic control regardless of an individual user's impact on the network.
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Tradition: Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid. --despair.com | |
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malt
join:2008-08-26
Greensburg, PA
| comcast fails This all seems pretty simple to me. Comcast is advertising speeds that they can't deliver. They need to offer speed tiers that their infrastructure can handle, if all users were to utilize their full bandwidth 24/7.
It is also becoming clear from the manner in which they are "managing" their network, that they intend to disrupt competing video services that are available online. In this regard, comcast is analogous to the RIAA trying to stop the shift of music delivery from cd to digital formats online. If comcast doesn't accept that media is going to shift to being delivered over the internet, their ISP business is going to fail.
This is an attempt by comcast to monopolize on demand video and movies, their throttling, and caps reflect their intent not to make services like hulu or other streaming video services ( especially HD ) available to people using comcast. Clearly comcast is threatened by these services.
Throttling after 15 minutes is a serious degradation in service for many legal file transfers that stream music and video, as well as legal p2p transfers of large files. Why should users suffer just because they download larger files or stream video?
One thing that can be said for myself, never will I pay for a service that doesn't deliver the speeds offered, and that penalizes me for actually using my allotted bandwidth, for durations of more than 15 minutes, this is absurd.
My wallet will do the talking. Rather than paying comcast, I'll be sending my $$ to Verizon, who's DSL service from my experience delivers the 3mbit down and 768 up that I pay for 24/7 without throttling AND no cap. Even DSL speeds will allow me to transfer more data over a month, than a "faster" comcast connection, due to the throttling and caps they are imposing.
This is all of course not even getting into the GB's worth of firewall logs I have from forged RST packets from comcast, from downloading linux live cd's and various iso's using bittorrent, and trying to help the open source community by seeding. The RST's are a clearly underhanded means for comcast to disrupt p2p, legitimate or otherwise, by abusing a protocol. | |
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amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| congested? What defines a congested node?
Some nights I think mine's congested and get horrid speeds (Cox).
What if I want to watch some Netflix?
This is a neat idea in principle, but I wonder what this means for users who usually play nice, but want to download a large file or watch a quality streaming video (HD or SD). Seems a LOT of users WILL be falling into the 'heavy' category before long if some aren't already.
Nice of them to try and be sort of fair and NOT screw with people on an "uncongested" node - but eventually, cable internet will have to get to the point of handling more and more demand for full speed, and users who expect to be able to use this bandwidth.
P2P may be causing headaches right now, but soon enough there will be more people who want to use that fat connection for more than casual surfing, random downloads, and lo-fi youtube/flash vids.
Netflix is also built in to Xboxes nowadays right?
What about when the time comes that people don't NEED to have a cable box for a true "on demand" experience, and only need a decent internet connection? ...Guess that's what they fear quite a bit, and is probably why we don't have a true online video service like we do for music.
The day will probably come that we have a video service like Rhapsody for music - pick something, push play. Like it and want to buy? Simple, just click buy it, and it's already been downloaded, so people can keep the file...
Try telling people that cap is for their own good when that day comes. Good luck Comcast.
Hope Cox doesn't follow their plan.
(The idea of) "metered" internet also scares me. | |
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| | amungus
Premium
join:2004-11-26
America
clubs:
| Re: congested? Guess they had to do something, and it seems like a better solution than pure resets and disruptions that didn't seem to affect the more savvy users anyway.
Still, agree that this does seem to squarely target not only the "hogs" who might actually be this top 1%, but users who are or will be quite ordinary - maybe not your average casual user who likes:
fast page loads, 2 minute youtube clips, a bit of music
More like the above casual user who likes:
same as above, but likes to watch a movie, download a game, patches for games, Linux, fixes a computer on occasion and downloads random programs, service packs, etc...
Again, I really hope Cox doesn't go this route. Speeds are fluctuating enough as it is for me right now...
Almost worth seeing how fast a DSL connection I can get in my current location, just in case...
Verizon won't likely be coming to town anytime soon, unfortunately. Those who can get FIOS, I envy you. Stable, fast, and they seem to mostly leave people the frak alone instead of messing with the connection all the time. | |
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Kfedka
Premium
join:2005-05-06
Spokane, WA | Outcasts Comcast never called me telling me I used to much Cable tv, this stuff is a joke with caps and throttling! Qwest here I come(maybe). | |
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Joe12345678
join:2003-07-22
Des Plaines, IL | Will people on comcast business be free of this with higher Will people on comcast business be free of this with higher caps? | |
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kpfx
join:2005-10-28
Kerrville, TX
·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Will people on comcast business be free of this with higher Its my understanding that business customers already have a higher QoS level than residential customers. That's just one of the reasons they pay more than residential customers... the higher use caused by an office staffed full of a dozen or so users.
I.E. the QoS is something like this:
1. VOIP Traffic
2. Commercial Customers
3. Residential Customers
*** and now ***
4. Bandwidth Hogs over 75% / 15min window | |
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dirtwarrior
join:2008-03-21
 ·Verizon FIOS
| comcast Is americas largest internet provider and if verizon had as many customers as comcast they would do the same thing shoot every company would.
I do think they should upgrade there infrastructure that would help alot but we no comcast thats never gonna happen ether way comcast bit of moore than they can chew. | |
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Dogfather
Premium
join:2007-12-26
Laguna Hills, CA
1 edit | Re: comcast Wrong again, as usual. AT&T(SBC) is the largest broadband provider.
And why should Brian Roberts upgrade their network? By abusing customers they post big profits and Brian gets his Apple stairs, ivory tower and video wall. | |
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Richard B
Fur It Up
join:2007-06-22
Portland, OR
·Comcast
| Sonds good to me. Lets recap
1. Software installed in the Comcast network continuously examines aggregate traffic
usage data for individual segments of Comcast’s HSI network. If overall upstream or
downstream usage on a particular segment of Comcast’s HSI network reaches a predetermined
level, the software moves on to step two.
2. At step two, the software examines bandwidth usage data for subscribers in the
affected network segment to determine which subscribers are using a disproportionate
share of the bandwidth. If the software determines that a particular subscriber or
subscribers have been the source of high volumes of network traffic during a recent
period of minutes, traffic originating from that subscriber or those subscribers
temporarily will be assigned a lower priority status.
3. During the time that a subscriber’s traffic is assigned the lower priority status, such
traffic will not be delayed so long as the network segment is not actually congested.
If, however, the network segment becomes congested, such traffic could be delayed.
4. The subscriber’s traffic returns to normal priority status once his or her bandwidth
usage drops below a set threshold over a particular time interval.
I have experienced problem with network congestion in my apartment. I feel this is a good policy but it does need a few tweaks, one would be is to encourage off hours usage for large files. Furthermore your average video streaming should not even come close to 70% of allotted bandwidth. | |
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I pos rep
join:2008-08-22
2 edits | 15 mins,.... are you ****ing kidding me? Alright, not every single server in the USA hands me files at full speed so let's say I get one that hands them at 80% of my 6Mbps.
6000Mbps X .8= 4,8000/8=600KB/sx60=36,000KB X 15= 527MB
This at or above dsl speeds better mean users on the lower tier do not get any downgrade otherwise it would be a lie as DSL speeds are 6000Kbps/768Kbps when I'm getting 6000Kbps and 1000Kbps on Cable. If I am going to be throttled at these damn speeds then Comcast can go suck a **** as I will be throttled to speeds below DSL.
So let me get this straight. Downloading a damn demo off the xbox live marketplace caps me. Now I am throttled and lagging online for the next X amount of time for downloading a damn demo or video of the xbox live marketplace said to be at around 15 mins which I doubt. KISS MY ASS COMCAST. I hope you get butt raped over and over by a retractable baton too.
An hour would have been reasonable as you would have to be uploading massive files or downloading a massive file of over a 1GB. In this you can download around 500MB and be capped. 
I am going to call and see if they will throttle lower speed tier users who are not on their 16mbps/2mbps or higher. If they are this is seriously a joke as any demos on xbox live or videos are now basically not allowed by Comcast. What a ****ing joke. This is what we get in ****ing shit ass markets where there is either a monopoly or duopoly.
I seriously hope anyone in a FIOS market certainly drops Comcast fast and changes to FIOS. Hopefully they don't throttle in the near future and if they do, they hopefully give a much better throttling than this.
I am sure their markets consisted of the most uneducated broadband users like 98 yr old retarded grandma and some others. As a gamer, I have never been too pleased with Comcast's latency to begin with but it has been decent. Now I can't even download demos or I get capped up the butt. I don't get where they tested. All you have to do is download a file bigger than 500MB which can be a program for your computer, a demo of a game, a video, anything. You don't have to be pirating for years to see an effect of their Nazi tactics. | |
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tightdog1
@omcastbusiness.net
|  Online gaming and watching videso online
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Re: It seems to me...
Discussion on this topic also from BBR front page Saturday